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Crazy Horse

Love - Peace - Wisdom

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Manwon Lender
22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I will not conform to your ideal. 

The price of living is death.

Your unhappiness and anger are yours, but I doubt that you like the way these things make you feel. The thought of living can be whatever you make it, that's your choice, no one controls your thoughts and your mind and except you, if you chose to change it again only you can do that. But no one is asking you to conform to anything, at least not according to what I have read in this thread.

Peace

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XenoFish
5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Your unhappiness and anger are yours, but I doubt that you like the way these things make you feel. The thought of living can be whatever you make it, that's your choice, no one controls your thoughts and your mind and except you, if you chose to change it again only you can do that. But no one is asking you to conform to anything, at least not according to what I have read in this thread.

Peace

Oh, you mean I'm allowed to not conform to someone's desire for a loving, kinder, peaceful world? 

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Crazy Horse
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Nothing matters. All our efforts are for nothing. No one gets a happy ever after. 

That's your opinion, one that helps shape your experience of this world.

My opinion, experience, and knowing, is slightly different. I know that everything counts, that every action has a reaction, and that every cause has its effect.

But anyway, good luck with that.

I sincerely hope that it brings you a real and lasting happiness, peace, good health, and everything else you need to live your life to the up-most. :tu:

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joc
25 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:
  35 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Nothing matters. All our efforts are for nothing. No one gets a happy ever after. 

25 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I know that everything counts, that every action has a reaction, and that every cause has its effect.

Physics = Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.  The equal opposite reaction of life is death...not more life.

@XenoFish therefore is correct...no one gets a happy ever after.

 

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Desertrat56

Attitude is almost everything.  It is the one thing we have control over and it includes what we think, how we think of ourselves in relation to others, how we think of others in relation to ourselves and what we want, think we need and how we relate to our environment and others.  Extreme attitudes like "others always matter more" or "i always matter more than others" are self destructive.  There has to be balance.  Sometimes we have to have the attitude that we will get what we need, other times our attitude can be "it doesn't matter".  Some things don't matter, some things do.

The story of the Auschwitz survivor who helped others when he could and said when he was rescued that he survived because one thing they could never take from him was his mind.  He held that attitude that he was always in control of his mind no matter what was done to his body and his loved ones.  He wasn't happy, but he was strong, knowing that a lot of the abuse was to break his mind, which he did not allow.  Did he feel peace?  Probably not, he lost everyone he loved and watched his friends die, endured torture and starvation.  Maybe the definition of Peace needs to be explored, it is most likely another emotion word that everyone thinks means something different.

I don't think peace is something we can maintain any more than bliss for long periods of time.  We can have a peace within us that we can draw upon to keep us centered and rational in chaotic circumstances but peace is thought to indicate a state of equanimity that we can't maintain because we are in human bodies on planet earth.  That is not the design of this place we find ourselves in.  Some days we will experience extreme emotions, and through our life time we will experience the whole gamut of emotion that is part of this experience.

If we strive to first be "OK" we can give ourselves space to examine what we think is not OK with our lives, our mental aspects, our relationships etc.  With that examination then comes the ability to determine what we need to change in our lives to be OK, including our attitude (the way we think). 

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simplybill
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah, the ugly aspect has cost me a total of $100,000 dollars. Trust is something I won't do again. Cost me my retirement, almost costed my wife's life. Never again. 

I have a couple of thoughts about this, but I don’t want to share them without your permission.

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XenoFish
7 minutes ago, simplybill said:

I have a couple of thoughts about this, but I don’t want to share them without your permission.

Just PM me. I'm done with this thread. 

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joc
2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

But never forget, desire is the root of all evil in this world.

Peace

I always thought that it was ignorance, in general, that was the root of all evil, pain and suffering?

The two main aspects being desire and aversion.

Where do you people come up with this bilge?  Seriously?

If you are going to quote Jesus then quote Jesus...who said...The love of money is the root of all evil.   But, I digress...

 

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Desertrat56
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Oh, you mean I'm allowed to not conform to someone's desire for a loving, kinder, peaceful world? 

Everyone's idea of a "loving, kinder, peaceful world" is different so how could you conform to someone else's idea?

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, joc said:

Where do you people come up with this bilge?  Seriously?

If you are going to quote Jesus then quote Jesus...who said...The love of money is the root of all evil.   But, I digress...

 

Sorry if my comments where beyond your comprehension. I never said money was the root of all evil. In addition I have never quoted Jesus on anything, I have no need for your Christian Religous beliefs. So please digress, it appears that what you are good at.

Peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Oh, you mean I'm allowed to not conform to someone's desire for a loving, kinder, peaceful world? 

No you can do what ever you chose to do, however, so long as you hold on to your anger it doesn't matter what you do. Like said before only you can decide to let go or find away to release your anger that an individual choice.

Peace

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Jujo-jo
4 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

No you can do what ever you chose to do, however, so long as you hold on to your anger it doesn't matter what you do. Like said before only you can decide to let go or find away to release your anger that an individual choice.

Peace

Boy, thanks I needed to hear that tonight! 

Edited by Jujo-jo
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Crazy Horse
10 hours ago, joc said:

Physics = Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.  The equal opposite reaction of life is death...not more life.

@XenoFish therefore is correct...no one gets a happy ever after.

 

That just an opinion, a belief, and not even matched out by the evidence.

There are plenty of relatives of dying folk who have seen their loved ones pass over into the next life, who are very much at peace and ease.

And the NDErs report an over-whelming sense of love and bliss, something in-fact not experienced in this life.

And when these NDErs come back with information that they couldn't of known beforehand, then it looks kind of ignorant to dismiss their testimonies.

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Crazy Horse
9 hours ago, joc said:

Where do you people come up with this bilge?  Seriously?

If you are going to quote Jesus then quote Jesus...who said...The love of money is the root of all evil.   But, I digress...

 

It is basic Buddhist philosophy, seeing as how you asked.

 

 

.

 

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Crazy Horse
14 hours ago, joc said:

Isn't feeling hurt a negative emotion?

 

 

I suppose it is?

Yet as with all of these negative emotions, it is only when one cannot control their feelings, hate, greed, jealousy and spitefulness, for example, that it becomes an issue. 

When I am feeling a deep sense of inner peace, there is no need to react poorly, no compunction, no desire whatsoever to react with a negative word, thought or action. I may still feel a fleeting emotion, but I don't give it any energy. Krishnamurti gave a nice lecture about putting a gap between the negative emotion, and the reaction, just by looking at it, and letting the moment pass.

Where I am at right now, every negative emotion is followed by a blessing, a sending of love, to whomever caused the annoyance or the disturbance. 

So in fact, it isn't the emotion per se that is the problem, but the reaction to it.

Its the reaction that can be either positive, or negative.

Thanks Joc

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Crazy Horse
11 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Attitude is almost everything.  It is the one thing we have control over and it includes what we think, how we think of ourselves in relation to others, how we think of others in relation to ourselves and what we want, think we need and how we relate to our environment and others.  Extreme attitudes like "others always matter more" or "i always matter more than others" are self destructive.  There has to be balance.  Sometimes we have to have the attitude that we will get what we need, other times our attitude can be "it doesn't matter".  Some things don't matter, some things do.

The story of the Auschwitz survivor who helped others when he could and said when he was rescued that he survived because one thing they could never take from him was his mind.  He held that attitude that he was always in control of his mind no matter what was done to his body and his loved ones.  He wasn't happy, but he was strong, knowing that a lot of the abuse was to break his mind, which he did not allow.  Did he feel peace?  Probably not, he lost everyone he loved and watched his friends die, endured torture and starvation.  Maybe the definition of Peace needs to be explored, it is most likely another emotion word that everyone thinks means something different.

I don't think peace is something we can maintain any more than bliss for long periods of time.  We can have a peace within us that we can draw upon to keep us centered and rational in chaotic circumstances but peace is thought to indicate a state of equanimity that we can't maintain because we are in human bodies on planet earth.  That is not the design of this place we find ourselves in.  Some days we will experience extreme emotions, and through our life time we will experience the whole gamut of emotion that is part of this experience.

If we strive to first be "OK" we can give ourselves space to examine what we think is not OK with our lives, our mental aspects, our relationships etc.  With that examination then comes the ability to determine what we need to change in our lives to be OK, including our attitude (the way we think). 

In Buddhist Philosophy, extremes are always shunned, yet one is encouraged to look after oneself first. (As you point-out in your last paragraph) A weak-minded and weak bodied individual isn't much good to anyone, not even themselves. Its called the Middle Path for a reason.

But I do believe that a long lasting peaceful feeling and demeaner are absolutely possible. By changing my attitude, the was I see life, and by training my mind, I have come a long way already. From being very angry, to actually blessing those who annoy and disturb me. But this is a work. I try not to miss an opportunity to do something good, something positive, even if I really don't feel like it at the time. And by meditation, and by actually reasoning-out what other have to say. Yet at the end of the day, just before I go to sleep, I say a pray, and I feel a deep sense of well-being. And I see no reason as to why this cannot continue to even greater depths and a greater feeling!

Once I understood that virtuous behaviour was an absolute prerequisite to feeling peace, and to gaining more profound levels of wisdom, then everything changed.

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Manwon Lender
8 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

In Buddhist Philosophy, extremes are always shunned, yet one is encouraged to look after oneself first. (As you point-out in your last paragraph) A weak-minded and weak bodied individual isn't much good to anyone, not even themselves. Its called the Middle Path for a reason.

But I do believe that a long lasting peaceful feeling and demeaner are absolutely possible. By changing my attitude, the was I see life, and by training my mind, I have come a long way already. From being very angry, to actually blessing those who annoy and disturb me. But this is a work. I try not to miss an opportunity to do something good, something positive, even if I really don't feel like it at the time. And by meditation, and by actually reasoning-out what other have to say. Yet at the end of the day, just before I go to sleep, I say a pray, and I feel a deep sense of well-being. And I see no reason as to why this cannot continue to even greater depths and a greater feeling!

Once I understood that virtuous behaviour was an absolute prerequisite to feeling peace, and to gaining more profound levels of wisdom, then everything changed.

When did you start to follow Buddhist teachings?

Peace

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Desertrat56
9 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

In Buddhist Philosophy, extremes are always shunned, yet one is encouraged to look after oneself first. (As you point-out in your last paragraph) A weak-minded and weak bodied individual isn't much good to anyone, not even themselves. Its called the Middle Path for a reason.

But I do believe that a long lasting peaceful feeling and demeaner are absolutely possible. By changing my attitude, the was I see life, and by training my mind, I have come a long way already. From being very angry, to actually blessing those who annoy and disturb me. But this is a work. I try not to miss an opportunity to do something good, something positive, even if I really don't feel like it at the time. And by meditation, and by actually reasoning-out what other have to say. Yet at the end of the day, just before I go to sleep, I say a pray, and I feel a deep sense of well-being. And I see no reason as to why this cannot continue to even greater depths and a greater feeling!

Once I understood that virtuous behaviour was an absolute prerequisite to feeling peace, and to gaining more profound levels of wisdom, then everything changed.

I suspect that it was not the virtuous behavior but the virtuous thought that enabled the virtuous behavior.  I do agree that at the end of the day every day is the time to go to that peace, but I do not see it as something that can always be sustained when interacting with others.  And if we find ourselves out side of that peace because we think we should always be peaceful, what happens?  We loose more peace by chastising ourselves or feeling unworthy or unsuccessful.  So in my mind being ok is the starting place and peace will happen when it happens.  I too have had extreme anger that lasted years (decades) and am working my way out of it.  I also find the middle path and the zen poems I have read to be very helpful.  I have never explored it more than that but may now that I have more information.

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Crazy Horse
7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

When did you start to follow Buddhist teachings?

Peace

2003

But once I realised that the Dharma, was in fact, everything I believed in, then I was like a duck-to-water. :clap:

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Crazy Horse
6 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I suspect that it was not the virtuous behavior but the virtuous thought that enabled the virtuous behavior.  I do agree that at the end of the day every day is the time to go to that peace, but I do not see it as something that can always be sustained when interacting with others.  And if we find ourselves out side of that peace because we think we should always be peaceful, what happens?  We loose more peace by chastising ourselves or feeling unworthy or unsuccessful.  So in my mind being ok is the starting place and peace will happen when it happens.  I too have had extreme anger that lasted years (decades) and am working my way out of it.  I also find the middle path and the zen poems I have read to be very helpful.  I have never explored it more than that but may now that I have more information.

No, for sure, the virtuous thought was the beginning of a new way of life.

But believe me, life, and the interactions with other folk, are a lot more easier when you are coming from a place of peacefulness, good health, cheerfulness, ready, able, and with a sense of humour! :D

 

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

2003

But once I realised that the Dharma, was in fact, everything I believed in, then I was like a duck-to-water. :clap:

I have been married to a South Korean Buddhist for 34 years. I have always participated in her Buddhist Ceremonies and over the years it's been like osmosis it just kinda stuck to my heart. I was raised in The Catholic faith, but Christianity never had any effect on me. I recently returned from South Korea where I lived since 2013, I seriously started to follow the path in 2014. I had some really good teachers in the area we lived in, at a Buddhist Temple near my home. 

I use to go there in my spare time and one of the senior monks would take time out to teach me. We became very close, and I learned a lot about Dharama. He also taught me meditation, I had a special place where I would go to meditate, just outside of town. Below is the shrine where I would meditate it's the oldest Buddhist Statue in South Korea, it is known as the Rock Carved Triad Buddha of Seosan Korea or the Smile of Baekje. While it is a famous site, during the week there is nobody there, It was the  most peaceful place I ever spent  time at. 

Peace

IMG_0155.JPG

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Horta
On 2/6/2020 at 2:56 PM, Crazy Horse said:

Actually you can simply decide, that is one of the points of the thread.

No, love can't be feigned, nor forced. It's either there or it isn't. In normal people anyway. It's a strong emotion, one that would generally make "inner peace" more difficult.

It has fondness and affection at it's base (only a stronger emotion than that). If you have the chemical cocktail in your nervous system and resulting neural activity that has you feeling love for everyone, some psych/neuroscience departments would probably enjoy studying that (it can be studied objectively). So far similar "loving" and "peaceful" (but not specifically the same) conscious states have been studied, but these are "altered" states that are very short.

What is more likely when people say this, is that they are fooling themselves (or trying to fool others). So far this covers 100% that I have encountered, but who knows? Not a problem of course, humans are easily deluded and this seems another harmless delusion where people like to think of themselves as more than they are. As Feynman said..."the first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person too fool". It can be problematic though, it certainly is in religious/new age cults where it evolves into full blown delusional narcissism, which is common. It's pie in the sky, airy fairy new age nonsense.

Entire culture have been erased and wars fought because of such "love". It's probably best kept within that close circle of familiars, as it has less potential for problems when it goes wrong as it often does.

Somehow if people talked less about "love" but looked at their bigotry and ability to hate and tried to confront that and do something about it in a practical way, that would seem more realistic and helpful.

Quote

Compassion is simply the feeling one gets from seeing someone suffer. Loving kindness on the other hand, is actually doing something to help ease that pain.

The lack of depth in that appraisal is stunning lol. That the founder of one the world's great ancient philosophies was considered the very embodiment of compassion itself, might hint at something more than that. 

People don't drop bombs on cities, burn others at the stake, or erase entire cultures simply because they are compassionate. Unlike the "love" of those thinking they are "special" or "spiritually advanced" or whatever...which has been an underlying motive in all of those things.

Compassion is an evolved and also a learned response to suffering, one that is worth having and has the possibility of being further cultivated. Not only where humans are concerned, but it can be extended to the other creatures we share the planet with. Though it isn't available to a percentage of the population with certain ASPD traits, most people have it in some measure. In general a change in certain attitudes and ignorance levels will change it by extension. It's something that is practical at least.

When someone claims to have unrealistic special abilities that basically deny their humanity, it's worth being sceptical of that....

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Horta

It's interesting the extent to which modern societies define and promote various types of (this vague concept accepted as) "love", both conceptually and practically. As if its mere mention is some panacea and all who have it (or claim to) are wonderful. The more socially acceptable and rare or special the version you have, the more special you must be. It's never a problem, it can only be good. I doubt that. That over simplistic sentiment has spawned a thousand brainwashing cults. The idea you can become some"love machine" with peace and wisdom simply because it sounds good, is about as realistic as deciding you'll now be a genius, simply because it sounds good. It overlooks what humans are, to begin with.

Generally people who go on about having it do so for their own emotional benefit... Either for personal emotional reasons or they are bound by an unrealistic ideal from some doctrine where all encompassing love is mentioned as a necessity...

Love of things like money, power and prestige (along with things like self indulgence) are the cornerstones of modern society. These ideals even control "democracy" itself ensuring inequality and suffering for many. A system we're born into with no possibility of escape, unless you find a way to live "traditionally". At it's base the monetary systems we have which really controls society underneath it all, despite its successes in many ways, is a totally sociopathic doctrine in any societal sense. Eventually it has no possibility other than societal dysfunction (not to mention it's effects on nature).

So it's understandable that in such an environment people create personas where they or others are all loving, peaceful, wise etc. Religious fantasy seems to have the same origin, a placebo for suffering. The "sigh of the oppressed creature". Not that (realistic) self improvement isn't a worthy goal.

For anyone who claims special powers of love, peace, wisdom and so forth, instead of bragging about it there is something practical you can do. The local psychology or neuroscience dept. at your university can study and might even be able to verify many of your claims. So that it can be learned about and understood, possibly helping others that way. The reason this won't happen and never does, seems obvious.

Edited by Horta

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Habitat
4 hours ago, Horta said:

It's interesting the extent to which modern societies define and promote various types of (this vague concept accepted as) "love", both conceptually and practically. As if its mere mention is some panacea and all who have it (or claim to) are wonderful. The more socially acceptable and rare or special the version you have, the more special you must be. It's never a problem, it can only be good. I doubt that. That over simplistic sentiment has spawned a thousand brainwashing cults. The idea you can become some"love machine" with peace and wisdom simply because it sounds good, is about as realistic as deciding you'll now be a genius, simply because it sounds good. It overlooks what humans are, to begin with.

Generally people who go on about having it do so for their own emotional benefit... Either for personal emotional reasons or they are bound by an unrealistic ideal from some doctrine where all encompassing love is mentioned as a necessity...

Love of things like money, power and prestige (along with things like self indulgence) are the cornerstones of modern society. These ideals even control "democracy" itself ensuring inequality and suffering for many. A system we're born into with no possibility of escape, unless you find a way to live "traditionally". At it's base the monetary systems we have which really controls society underneath it all, despite its successes in many ways, is a totally sociopathic doctrine in any societal sense. Eventually it has no possibility other than societal dysfunction (not to mention it's effects on nature).

So it's understandable that in such an environment people create personas where they or others are all loving, peaceful, wise etc. Religious fantasy seems to have the same origin, a placebo for suffering. The "sigh of the oppressed creature". Not that (realistic) self improvement isn't a worthy goal.

For anyone who claims special powers of love, peace, wisdom and so forth, instead of bragging about it there is something practical you can do. The local psychology or neuroscience dept. at your university can study and might even be able to verify many of your claims. So that it can be learned about and understood, possibly helping others that way. The reason this won't happen and never does, seems obvious.

LOVE is just "togetherness". The astonishing finding of both science and sage, that all distinctions are illusory, that the multiplicity is only apparent, leads to the conclusion that love really is the act of recognizing the essential unity of all being. Little by little, expanding the circle of identity, beyond the self, to include the seemingly similar, and thence the seeming, but fundamentally, not, dissimilar. The more alien this doctrine appears, the more lodged in the ego we must be.

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Desertrat56
15 hours ago, Horta said:

Compassion is an evolved and also a learned response to suffering, one that is worth having and has the possibility of being further cultivated. Not only where humans are concerned, but it can be extended to the other creatures we share the planet with. Though it isn't available to a percentage of the population with certain ASPD traits, most people have it in some measure. In general a change in certain attitudes and ignorance levels will change it by extension. It's something that is practical at least.

I have seen 2 year olds show compassion with no prompting from the adults, and even when the adults around them are not compassionate.  I don't think it is "learned" I think it is forgotten and then there is a need for it to be re-learned.

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