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Raptor Witness

Where Does The Impeachment Leave U.S?

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bee
18 minutes ago, and then said:

I have to wonder what they'll resort to, to keep Sanders from being nominated. 

 

Your whole post was good but I've picked this out to tell you I posted a Jimmy Dore Show video
that could give some insight into that... in the Democrat Caucus Collapse thread... (on page 2)
if you feel so inclined... :) 

 

 

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Doug1029
7 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

The TEA Party woke everyone up to what was happening.  I loved the Bushs, but they were too much, “Kinder and Gentler” and led the RINO party to the slaughter.  Trump has shown that in order to maintain a more perfect union, one needs to be able to bully the bullies and push back.  That keeps them in check.

At the time I thought Baby Bush was a terrible President.  Now I know it was only because I lacked perspective on what bad actually is.  Bush said, "Don't you wish you had me back?"  Lamentably, I do.

Doug

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and then
1 minute ago, RavenHawk said:

I would love to see Elise or Candace.  I love Candace, I don’t think she is capable to be President.  Perhaps she could be on a female-dominated Cabinet?

I wish I had your confidence.  If praying and spreading the word will make it so then I'll do my part.  I think there are a couple of Republican women who'd be up to the job.  While I don't necessarily agree with everything she has done in SC, I think Nikki Haley would be one tough opponent for any Democrat man or woman to beat.  She doesn't pull punches and isn't bridled by convention when tough talk is necessary. 

From this point forward, the only R's that will have a chance to win will be those who break the old paradigm they've followed for decades and who are willing to fight and to keep counterpunching in spite of the 5th Column's  constant assaults and lies.  If the Republican party attempts to go back to the times when they tried to be "civil" and attempted to get positive media coverage, the Ds will take power and will not relinquish it short of a revolution.  

If people like Collins, Scalise, Jordan, Nunes, Gaetz, Ratcliffe or Elise Stefanik keep their current attitude and have sufficient financial backing so they don't have to be beggars of the media for exposure, then Trump's legacy may last quite a while.  There are more fighters in the Republican party since Trump showed how it's done.  We just have to support them.

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and then
3 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

Maybe it will be an honest one.

Just curious, Doug, is it possible for Trump to win and for you to believe the election was "honest"?

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Doug1029
13 minutes ago, and then said:

Just curious, Doug, is it possible for Trump to win and for you to believe the election was "honest"?

I think that no matter who wins, the Russians, Chinese and others are going to try to influence it.  I am particularly concerned about hacking the voter rolls just before the election. 

The only way to tell will be to wait until afterward and see if we can figure out what happened.

Russia tried meddling in the 2016 election.  Whether it was the meddling or Hillary's own ineptitude that lost her the election, we'll probably never know.  The Dems should have known better than to ignore several key blue-collar states.  Lets hope they learned.

I can hope that outside meddling has little effect.

My major concern is that Trump will lose and then try to claim that the election was rigged and refuse to step aside for the new President.  He can readily be removed if it comes to that, but removing him forcibly from the White House could set off a political backlash among his followers who believe that if Trump says the election was rigged, then it was rigged.  It's the politics of that backlash and the resulting violence from the right that concerns me.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029

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and then
26 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Whether it was the meddling or Hillary's own ineptitude that lost her the election, we'll probably never know. 

A couple of valid points... First, Russia, China, Israel, the UK, ALL attempt to "meddle" in elections every time and so do we.  It's what nations DO.  It has been that way at least as long as I've been around.  Second, Mueller's report, written by 17 pro HRC lawyers after 2 years with an unlimited budget, clearly stated that nothing the Russians did could be proven to have changed votes.  NONE.  You do realize that our presidential election isn't centralized nor do we vote online, right?  That means for Russia or anyone else to rig an election it would take a massive amount of effort on an individual level within multiple states and specific precincts.  

If I had to guess about HRC's loss, I'd say she was truly a lousy candidate that most people just weren't comfortable with.  You know that she didn't go to Wisconsin at all, right?  She was so convinced that it was her RIGHT to be president that she forgot she had to win votes.  

I see a trend beginning already with  the leaders of your party, where they are saying Trump has somehow already "cheated" and if he wins, he'll be illegitimate.  That is straight up childish, untrue, unprovable and will potentially cause violence and bloodshed in America if they keep it up.  It's disgraceful and anyone who supports it is also a disgrace, IMO.

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and then
1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

It's the politics of that backlash and the resulting violence from the right that concerns me.

Frankly, after the hell they've put him and the country through, Ds SHOULD be concerned about how he'd handle losing if there is some obvious chicanery going on.  I hope it isn't so close that it would matter but I'm convinced that the Left is going to pull out ALL the stops, do anything and everything to take him down.  We are nearing the point where he could actually be more dangerous to the Left if he WAS defeated.  His supporters will follow him.  I hope he wins and then I hope he starts a national movement to bring back some spine to the Republican party.  If he loses a fair election then so be it but I still hope he uses his gift to resurrect a strong and independent Republican party for the future.  Love him or hate him, he has shown the Left and the media for what they really are and there will be NO going back to the way it was before 2016.  That is unacceptable.

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STAR LORD
1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

I think that no matter who wins, the Russians, Chinese and others are going to try to influence it.  I am particularly concerned about hacking the voter rolls just before the election. 

The only way to tell will be to wait until afterward and see if we can figure out what happened.

Russia tried meddling in the 2016 election.  Whether it was the meddling or Hillary's own ineptitude that lost her the election, we'll probably never know.  The Dems should have known better than to ignore several key blue-collar states.  Lets hope they learned.

I can hope that outside meddling has little effect.

My major concern is that Trump will lose and then try to claim that the election was rigged and refuse to step aside for the new President.  He can readily be removed if it comes to that, but removing him forcibly from the White House could set off a political backlash among his followers who believe that if Trump says the election was rigged, then it was rigged.  It's the politics of that backlash and the resulting violence from the right that concerns me.

Doug

Lets blaim Canada

 

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Doug1029
1 hour ago, and then said:

A couple of valid points... First, Russia, China, Israel, the UK, ALL attempt to "meddle" in elections every time and so do we.  It's what nations DO.  It has been that way at least as long as I've been around.

In this country it is illegal to intervene in our elections.  Twelve Russians were indicted by the Mueller probe for election tampering.  As long as they never leave Russia, they'll be safe, but a trip to the Riviera could land them in a French jail awaiting extradition.  We can also refuse aide and we can apply sanctions to both individuals and the country.  Our laws have some teeth and we should use them.  Same applies to persons in China, Israel, UK, etc.

 

1 hour ago, and then said:

Second, Mueller's report, written by 17 pro HRC lawyers after 2 years with an unlimited budget, clearly stated that nothing the Russians did could be proven to have changed votes.  NONE.

That is a strange statement because it was Mueller who indicted those twelve above.

 

1 hour ago, and then said:

You do realize that our presidential election isn't centralized nor do we vote online, right?  That means for Russia or anyone else to rig an election it would take a massive amount of effort on an individual level within multiple states and specific precincts.  

Just mess up a few Democratic or Republican precincts and you can throw an election.  In fact, there was a competition at a hacker's convention in which the winner was a twelve-year-old kid who was able to hack an election in just ten minutes.  That was a test file, but it has been done for real to test the effectiveness of Florida's safety systems - they might as well not have had any.

 

1 hour ago, and then said:

If I had to guess about HRC's loss, I'd say she was truly a lousy candidate that most people just weren't comfortable with.  You know that she didn't go to Wisconsin at all, right?  She was so convinced that it was her RIGHT to be president that she forgot she had to win votes.  

All true.  If she wasn't such a bad candidate, Trump wouldn't be president.  The Dems can lay part of the blame on themselves.

 

1 hour ago, and then said:

I see a trend beginning already with  the leaders of your party, where they are saying Trump has somehow already "cheated" and if he wins, he'll be illegitimate.  That is straight up childish, untrue, unprovable and will potentially cause violence and bloodshed in America if they keep it up.  It's disgraceful and anyone who supports it is also a disgrace, IMO.

I don't know of anybody who said that.  Maybe it's true and maybe not.

There is something else I forgot to say in that post.  Trump has a reputation for lying, more than one a day throughout his presidency.  He cheated students at Trump University.  He committed theft by fraud in dealing with contractors working on Trump properties.  He tolerates subordinates who steal from the taxpayers - Oklahoma's own Scott Pruitt among them.  He has a reputation and it's not a good one.  With all that, if Trump wins the election this fall, it is automatically suspect.

 

50 minutes ago, and then said:

We are nearing the point where he could actually be more dangerous to the Left if he WAS defeated.  His supporters will follow him.

How is that NOT a threat?  You are laying the groundwork for a violent uprising when Trump loses.

Doug

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Doug1029
40 minutes ago, STAR LORD said:

Lets blaim Canada

 

Why?  I love Canada.  Used to go up there every year.  My wife and I are planning a trip to Algonquin Park the summer after next.

Doug

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DarkHunter
15 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Just mess up a few Democratic or Republican precincts and you can throw an election.  In fact, there was a competition at a hacker's convention in which the winner was a twelve-year-old kid who was able to hack an election in just ten minutes.  That was a test file, but it has been done for real to test the effectiveness of Florida's safety systems - they might as well not have had any.

That is not completely accurate.  What the kid hacked was a website showing the results and changing the showed results, the competion was not hacking the voting system and changing saved results.  The difference between the two is quite massive and rather important.

Even then only 2 states in America have electronic voting only with no paper trail and 8 with a mix of paper voting and electronic voting without a paper trail.  The remaining 40 either use paper, mail in, and/or electronic voting with a paper trail.

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Doug1029
23 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

That is not completely accurate.  What the kid hacked was a website showing the results and changing the showed results, the competion was not hacking the voting system and changing saved results.  The difference between the two is quite massive and rather important.

Even then only 2 states in America have electronic voting only with no paper trail and 8 with a mix of paper voting and electronic voting without a paper trail.  The remaining 40 either use paper, mail in, and/or electronic voting with a paper trail.

My mistake.

The important point is that our elections can be hacked and one doesn't need to hack vote totals.  Imagine if suddenly every Democratic precinct in a swing state lost its voter registration records.  The Dems would be sure the Rubs did it and vice versa.  We could come very close to a civil war over something like that.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, bee said:

re bolded above..... if they could pull it off it would come from the Inside not the Outside... (IMO) 

Maybe.  Its the if they could pull it off part that makes me skeptical.

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Habitat

The message from the Impeachment is that the structures under which such things can happen, were not designed with partisan party politics at the forefront. It was virtually a formality that he would be acquitted, simply by looking at the House/Senate party split numbers.

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DarkHunter
15 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

My mistake.

The important point is that our elections can be hacked and one doesn't need to hack vote totals.  Imagine if suddenly every Democratic precinct in a swing state lost its voter registration records.  The Dems would be sure the Rubs did it and vice versa.  We could come very close to a civil war over something like that.

Doug

That would have absolutely zero effect, everyone would still be able to vote normally and the only issue would be the state taking anywhere from a few extra hours to a few days to verify the votes depending on how wide spread the problem and how organized the state is 

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, and then said:

Sometimes it's really hard to take you seriously.  Not often, but sometimes it's a challenge.  Could you elucidate a bit on why Russia, China and Kim would all like to see Trump re-elected?

Sure.  It is not because he is a foreign asset, I don't believe he is.

I think I included Israel on that list too.  Maybe that is obvious.  For a tiny country, Israel has a huge technical capability, probably more that some of the larger European countries we might think of .as being able to influence US elections.  Prez Trump has been the best friend to Israel in  the last couple of Presidents, and he has a personal relationship with Bibi, that Netanyahu can tout as a reason to keep himself in power..  No such luck with the Democratic candidates.

In three generations of the Kim family, how many times have they met with a US President or had a US President step onto their soil before President Trump.  None.  Now Kim jong un has met with the president twice.  Whatever is in those love letters he writes to Trump, they seem to keep the door open to future meetings. Kim needs the world recognition he gets.  He wants to continue to work that relationship,   What Democrat seems as likely to do that?

Sanctions on Russia have a major focus on individuals and companies.  Putin  may not care so awful much about those.  On the positive side, even if US intelligence agencies are convinced that Russia meddled  in US elections, Trump has said a number of times that he does not.  The US attitude on disengagement in the world has been a benefit to Russia.  Russia and Turkey directly benefited from our Syrian withdrawal.  As we step back, it offers them and their friends like Turkey more opportunities.

Now I will say that I think it is a good thing that President Trump has somewhat reduced our exposure to international conflict.  It does have a price attached, but we may decide it is worth it.

Saudi Arabia has never had a better friend than Trump.  He can brush past the murder of a journalist, sell them arms and provide warm bodies to help protect the Kingdom from Iran.

China, well China in its own state run news hopes for the reelection of Trump.  The trade war has hurt both sides but they believe China will benefit in the long term.  Despite tough talk on China by the US, the influence of China has grown in SE Asia due to the US internal focus.  Right or Wrong, Chinese opinion is that Trump is weak and it is a chance for them to make progress toward their own long term goals.  China has sometimes complained that it does not understand where power lies in the US.  It has become pretty clear of late. It makes us easy to deal with, strongman to strongman.

All of those countries  have authoritarian strongmen that have some kind of personal relationship with Trump.  Right or wrong, they also believe that they can influence him with flattery and make use of his short attention span, disdain for detail, and ego.

Blame anybody you want, including the Democrats, socialists, and Obama, but the fact is that the country is now well and truly divided.  Nobody in the world is betting on the President's desire or capability to fix that.  In fact he is a perfect lightening rod for that division.  Reducing our desire and capability to influence the larger world is a huge benefit to all of the above mentioned players.

 

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Uncle Sam

In the same position we was after the Russian gate Investigation. The President not hurt but bolster and the Democrats even worse off than they was before. This isn't going to end though, the same people who started this nonsense are still in their positions and they are free to start up another impeachment or investigation into Trump. Hopefully the Republicans get off their ass to investigate them for obstruction, sabotage, and treason.

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Hammerclaw
4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Sure.  It is not because he is a foreign asset, I don't believe he is.

I think I included Israel on that list too.  Maybe that is obvious.  For a tiny country, Israel has a huge technical capability, probably more that some of the larger European countries we might think of .as being able to influence US elections.  Prez Trump has been the best friend to Israel in  the last couple of Presidents, and he has a personal relationship with Bibi, that Netanyahu can tout as a reason to keep himself in power..  No such luck with the Democratic candidates.

In three generations of the Kim family, how many times have they met with a US President or had a US President step onto their soil before President Trump.  None.  Now Kim jong un has met with the president twice.  Whatever is in those love letters he writes to Trump, they seem to keep the door open to future meetings. Kim needs the world recognition he gets.  He wants to continue to work that relationship,   What Democrat seems as likely to do that?

Sanctions on Russia have a major focus on individuals and companies.  Putin  may not care so awful much about those.  On the positive side, even if US intelligence agencies are convinced that Russia meddled  in US elections, Trump has said a number of times that he does not.  The US attitude on disengagement in the world has been a benefit to Russia.  Russia and Turkey directly benefited from our Syrian withdrawal.  As we step back, it offers them and their friends like Turkey more opportunities.

Now I will say that I think it is a good thing that President Trump has somewhat reduced our exposure to international conflict.  It does have a price attached, but we may decide it is worth it.

Saudi Arabia has never had a better friend than Trump.  He can brush past the murder of a journalist, sell them arms and provide warm bodies to help protect the Kingdom from Iran.

China, well China in its own state run news hopes for the reelection of Trump.  The trade war has hurt both sides but they believe China will benefit in the long term.  Despite tough talk on China by the US, the influence of China has grown in SE Asia due to the US internal focus.  Right or Wrong, Chinese opinion is that Trump is weak and it is a chance for them to make progress toward their own long term goals.  China has sometimes complained that it does not understand where power lies in the US.  It has become pretty clear of late. It makes us easy to deal with, strongman to strongman.

All of those countries  have authoritarian strongmen that have some kind of personal relationship with Trump.  Right or wrong, they also believe that they can influence him with flattery and make use of his short attention span, disdain for detail, and ego.

Blame anybody you want, including the Democrats, socialists, and Obama, but the fact is that the country is now well and truly divided.  Nobody in the world is betting on the President's desire or capability to fix that.  In fact he is a perfect lightening rod for that division.  Reducing our desire and capability to influence the larger world is a huge benefit to all of the above mentioned players.

 

He's certainly a relief to some, after two decades of U.S. military adventurism, Trump has shown remarkable restraint. He's shown little inclination to play the role of Emperor of the West that every President after Roosevelt assumed as their natural right. For the most part, his military moves have been calculated for effect, often subtle and largely unnoticed. While alarming Europe with not so subtle hints of discontent with their lax military posture and possible U.S. military disengagement, he's quietly and efficiently increased investment in the continent in ordinance, manpower and deployment right up to the borders of Russia. He's continued the previous administration's "China Pivot" in fleet deployments and engaged North Korea one on one, diplomatically with ambiguous results. His carrot and stick diplomacy with China on trade has begun to bear fruit and his "provocations" challenging their absurd claims on the South China Sea have been predictable and relatively innocuous. He's maintained a sort of "station keeping" relationship with Russia while adroitly and slyly nudging them into a more proactive role in peacekeeping in the Syrian Civil War theater, which--if Afghanistan was any indication of--they'll probably come to regret. Another four years of Trump will provide these "Dictators for Life" something they cherish most of all i.e. order, stability and predictability. 

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Doug1029
13 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

That would have absolutely zero effect, everyone would still be able to vote normally and the only issue would be the state taking anywhere from a few extra hours to a few days to verify the votes depending on how wide spread the problem and how organized the state is 

The meddling in elections we have seen at the local precinct level is done by election officials.  Example, by secreting a lead from a pencil beneath a bandaid on his finger, a person can easily disfigure a ballot, rendering it void.  The subjective nature of "hanging chads" has been commented on extensively.

We had an example from my own precinct.  Just as my wife was voting, the voting machine quit working and wouldn't count her vote.  The next person in line was a Republican and it wouldn't count hers either.  Both complained to the elections board.  The board checked and concluded it was a defective machine and not done deliberately.  That's my own opinion, too.  I don't think there was anything untoward about this particular incident, but it illustrates how easy it is to cheat the system.

I urge anybody who is concerned about election integrity to take the training and become an election judge.  It is a relatively easy way for common citizens to help protect our elections.

Doug

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Doug1029
11 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

He's certainly a relief to some, after two decades of U.S. military adventurism, Trump has shown remarkable restraint.

Who was it that started that military adventurism?  In case you hadn't noticed, the left has opposed this from day one.

Doug

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DarkHunter
1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

The meddling in elections we have seen at the local precinct level is done by election officials.  Example, by secreting a lead from a pencil beneath a bandaid on his finger, a person can easily disfigure a ballot, rendering it void.  The subjective nature of "hanging chads" has been commented on extensively.

We had an example from my own precinct.  Just as my wife was voting, the voting machine quit working and wouldn't count her vote.  The next person in line was a Republican and it wouldn't count hers either.  Both complained to the elections board.  The board checked and concluded it was a defective machine and not done deliberately.  That's my own opinion, too.  I don't think there was anything untoward about this particular incident, but it illustrates how easy it is to cheat the system.

I urge anybody who is concerned about election integrity to take the training and become an election judge.  It is a relatively easy way for common citizens to help protect our elections.

Doug

So you went from foreigners hacking our election systems being a major concern to foreigners hacking and deleting voter rolls being the massive concern to now election official tampering with votes being the massive concern.  That is probably the largest moving the goal post defense I have seen on this site in a long time.

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Doug1029
24 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

So you went from foreigners hacking our election systems being a major concern to foreigners hacking and deleting voter rolls being the massive concern to now election official tampering with votes being the massive concern.  That is probably the largest moving the goal post defense I have seen on this site in a long time.

I see that you are looking for a fight and I don't particularly want to give you one.  I think that foreign hacking is a major concern, probably the bigger one.  But local corruption is also a concern.  I can't really do anything about foreign meddling, but I can do something about local corruption.  And so can the readers of this thread.  Do you want to be part of the solution, or would you rather just b****?

Doug

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Raptor Witness

Stunning to watch ... Clinton vs. Trump in post impeachment acquittal speeches.

I repeat, the Trump brand is now worth zilch. 

 

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aztek
Quote

 

Congressman Matt Gaetz is calling for an ethics investigation of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi after she ripped up a copy of President Trump's State of the Union speech. The Florida Republican tweeted a letter he wrote to top members of the House Ethics Committee calling for an investigation into Pelosi's "flagrant violation of decorum." 

After Mr. Trump concluded his address to the nation Tuesday night, Pelosi picked up her paper copy of his speech and tore it in pieces behind him — well in view of television cameras. A day later, Gaetz argued in his letter that Pelosi may have violated the House's Code of Official Conduct on decorum and perhaps even broken the law by destroying a government document. "Nobody is above the law," he tweeted. "She must be held accountable."

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gaetz-files-complaint-against-pelosi-080451061.html

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Skulduggery

As a liberal who is registered independent, my perspective is...nobody was thinking beyond their noses. Talking about Pelosi and the DNC establishment here. My fave candidate, Tulsi, was right all along. It shouldn't have been hard to see. While everyone else was shooting themselves in the foot, Tulsi said it straight. It would backfire. If a party really wants to get a president out, at least put a good opponent against them. Otherwise, don't even bother. I don't like Trump. That doesn't mean I hate the man. I just think there are others who could do better. I don't think it is all reactionary, however. Tulsi would be a great presidential candidate. She actually has a head on her shoulders. But, as it stands, I'll be happy if Bernie gets the ticket because the DNC establishment doesn't like him and they've schemed hard in the past to keep him out. Would Bernie win against Trump? I don't know, but he's a better option that Bloomberg or Hillary or several of the others. Biden would lose flat out. They all probably would. Bernie has traction. He deserves the shot he wanted years ago. I think Tulsi would be an even better option but the Dems are ****ing up. The impeachment has only bolstered Trump. I think any sane person would have seen it coming.

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