Where Does The Impeachment Leave U.S?

[+and-then]

16 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

That is a strange statement because it was Mueller who indicted those twelve above.

Care to cite where he explained how these Russians caused votes to be changed?  He indicted a bunch of hackers who attempted to influence idiots on Social Media sites.  If you can find a source that states, with evidence, that Mueller believed votes in 2016 were changed due to Russian meddling, I'd like to see it.  Obama spent several hundred thousand public dollars trying to defeat Bibi Netanyahu in Israel.  That's a fact.  I don't recall any Democrats crying foul over his actions.  That's because ALL nations with the capability will try to influence elections to favor their nation's needs.  ALL nations do it.  The only reason the world came unglued this time is because your party needed an excuse for losing to an amateur when your candidate was thought to be the smartest, best choice for president in history    It looks like that for an encore this time around, the Ds are going to run a Socialist up the flagpole to see who'll salute... priceless 

[Tatetopa]

14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

He's certainly a relief to some, after two decades of U.S. military adventurism, Trump has shown remarkable restraint. He's shown little inclination to play the role of Emperor of the West that every President after Roosevelt assumed as their natural right. For the most part, his military moves have been calculated for effect, often subtle and largely unnoticed. While alarming Europe with not so subtle hints of discontent with their lax military posture and possible U.S. military disengagement, he's quietly and efficiently increased investment in the continent in ordinance, manpower and deployment right up to the borders of Russia. He's continued the previous administration's "China Pivot" in fleet deployments and engaged North Korea one on one, diplomatically with ambiguous results. His carrot and stick diplomacy with China on trade has begun to bear fruit and his "provocations" challenging their absurd claims on the South China Sea have been predictable and relatively innocuous. He's maintained a sort of "station keeping" relationship with Russia while adroitly and slyly nudging them into a more proactive role in peacekeeping in the Syrian Civil War theater, which--if Afghanistan was any indication of--they'll probably come to regret. Another four years of Trump will provide these "Dictators for Life" something they cherish most of all i.e. order, stability and predictability. 

That is a good post.  It is a viewpoint that might also be construed to reinforce the reasons that some of the foreign powers that might have the capability to meddle in US elections  want Trump to be reelected;   It is not for any benefit to America, but for their own reasons.  I don't  mean to twist your words if you disagree with that assessment, say so. 

Maybe they can just sit back and watch it happen.  Second  term may be a charm, looks like the Nobel Prize is within reach if your analysis is correct..

[Doug1029]

36 minutes ago, and then said:

Care to cite where he explained how these Russians caused votes to be changed?  He indicted a bunch of hackers who attempted to influence idiots on Social Media sites.  If you can find a source that states, with evidence, that Mueller believed votes in 2016 were changed due to Russian meddling, I'd like to see it.  Obama spent several hundred thousand public dollars trying to defeat Bibi Netanyahu in Israel.  That's a fact.  I don't recall any Democrats crying foul over his actions.  That's because ALL nations with the capability will try to influence elections to favor their nation's needs.  ALL nations do it.  The only reason the world came unglued this time is because your party needed an excuse for losing to an amateur when your candidate was thought to be the smartest, best choice for president in history    It looks like that for an encore this time around, the Ds are going to run a Socialist up the flagpole to see who'll salute... priceless 

There is no evidence to say that Russia did or did not change votes in 2016.  Russia certainly made the attempt and we would be foolish to think they didn't change any.  But the real question is whether it changed the outcome, and the answer to that question, we will probably never know.  And as I have said that several times on UM, I am wondering if you can read.

I don't know whether Obama broke Israel's laws or not, as I am not familiar with Israel's laws.  It only matters if Israel objected.  Have they?

All nations may do it, but we can still prosecute any who get caught doing it.  And we should.

And I agree that Hillary was not a good candidate and that the Dems made some serious mistakes in the campaign.

Sanders would have beat Trump in 2016.  Can he do it in 2020?  Who knows.  But I am hoping he gets the chance.

Doug

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

I see that you are looking for a fight and I don't particularly want to give you one.  I think that foreign hacking is a major concern, probably the bigger one.  But local corruption is also a concern.  I can't really do anything about foreign meddling, but I can do something about local corruption.  And so can the readers of this thread.  Do you want to be part of the solution, or would you rather just b****?

Doug

It's not looking for a fight its calling you out on stuff you clearly have no idea about which in this case is about how elections work.  

Foreign hacking is simply not a concern as few states rely on electronic voting with no paper trail.  Even then since the voting machines are not connected to the internet hacking them would require breaking into secured facilities, hacking each unit individually which would require disassembly to some degree, and then reassembling the voting machine perfectly including the seals so it would pass inspection before being used.  It's simply not a major issue.

As for local corruption whenever attempts are made at facing that issue Democrats tend to throw a fit and cry about voter suppression.

[Doug1029]

4 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

As for local corruption whenever attempts are made at facing that issue Democrats tend to throw a fit and cry about voter suppression.

Voter suppression is a corruption of the election process.  So why don't you and the Democrats get together and fix BOTH problems?

Doug

[+and-then]

25 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

There is no evidence to say that Russia did or did not change votes in 2016. 

Uh... that's not the way the world works.  If someone makes the charge that an election was "hacked", the intention is to accuse someone of changing the outcome.  That isn't a issue that is difficult to prove.  Mueller's crew worked ASSIDUOUSLY for 2 years.  They subpoenaed everyone AND their cat and they found ZERO proof that ANY U.S. citizen was culpable or even complicit in interfering in the 2016 election.  I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to just admit that.  It's a factual statement from Mueller.  

If you are equating the influence that social media posts might have on voter's choices then all I can say is that's impossible to measure.  When you get to the final analysis, every election is about advertising and attempting to influence the choice of voters.  The Russians spent an amount on social media that Kushner said was less than the equivalent of what Trump's campaign was spending every WEEK.  If you feel the need to defend that hill, go for it.  But it makes you look weak and clinging.  The facts just aren't on your side here.

[DarkHunter]

10 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Voter suppression is a corruption of the election process.  So why don't you and the Democrats get together and fix BOTH problems?

Doug

Removing the names of the dead and people who moved away from the voting rolls are hardly voter suppression but yet every time it's done Democrats cry voter suppression.  Everytime its suggested to require IDs to be used to vote, even when provided free of cost, Democrats cry voter suppression.  Hard to work with a group who cries voter suppression over everything done to secure the process.

[Doug1029]

16 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Removing the names of the dead and people who moved away from the voting rolls are hardly voter suppression but yet every time it's done Democrats cry voter suppression.  Everytime its suggested to require IDs to be used to vote, even when provided free of cost, Democrats cry voter suppression.  Hard to work with a group who cries voter suppression over everything done to secure the process.

Suppose you provide some evidence of this protest.

Doug

[Doug1029]

19 minutes ago, and then said:

Uh... that's not the way the world works.  If someone makes the charge that an election was "hacked", the intention is to accuse someone of changing the outcome.  That isn't a issue that is difficult to prove.  Mueller's crew worked ASSIDUOUSLY for 2 years.  They subpoenaed everyone AND their cat and they found ZERO proof that ANY U.S. citizen was culpable or even complicit in interfering in the 2016 election.  I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to just admit that.  It's a factual statement from Mueller.  

If you are equating the influence that social media posts might have on voter's choices then all I can say is that's impossible to measure.  When you get to the final analysis, every election is about advertising and attempting to influence the choice of voters.  The Russians spent an amount on social media that Kushner said was less than the equivalent of what Trump's campaign was spending every WEEK.  If you feel the need to defend that hill, go for it.  But it makes you look weak and clinging.  The facts just aren't on your side here.

Making assumptions about my intentions, aren't you?  Did I say the 2016 election was "hacked?"  The Russians and probably others tried to influence it, no doubt, but "hacked?" 

BTW:  Here is an article listing the 34 indictments obtained by Mueller.  The hacking charge was for hacking the DNC computer.  These hacked emails were then disseminated over social media.  This theft was part of the social media campaign.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury

Just a footnote:  11 indictments resulted from the Clinton investigation, yet the only evidence Barr could find of a Clinton misdeed was a blue dress.  When the Rubs decided to impeach Clinton, they should have been smart enough to see what they were starting.

Doug

[RavenHawk]

We have a long journey ahead of us.  Too many have underestimated the will of the American people and have paid the price.  At the top of that list is the domestic Left.  We all know what happens when someone tells us "no" or "you can't do that".

This already needs to be updated with the Men and Women of Benghazi, those of Task Force 8-14, Rush, and Trump.  Don't tread on us!

[+and-then]

5 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

yet the only evidence Barr could find of a Clinton misdeed was a blue dress.

I see...  Maybe you should tell Bill he didn't need to make a guilty plea, pay a huge fine and lose his Arkansas and USSC bar status.  Perjury, obstruction of justice, suborning perjury and witness tampering.  Those are a little more troublesome than "abuse of power" and "obstructing Congress".

But hey, the people didn't want to rock the boat and chance screwing up a hot economy so the Senate threw some love his way and he took the actions I just stated and was somewhat contrite.  Trump isn't making apologies because he committed no crime beyond defeating HRC.  

[DarkHunter]

37 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Suppose you provide some evidence of this protest.

Doug

Then are tons of sources online, only takes a few seconds on google but this doesnt seem to be about sources but more of a delaying tactic since you have shown your complete and utter ignorance of voting.

For cleaning up voter rolls

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1J71QQ

For fighting against voter ID laws

https://www.google.com/amp/s/pjmedia.com/trending/house-democrats-pass-bill-to-fight-voter-id-laws-nationwide/amp/

There are many more articles online but like I said this was probably never about proof but the last bastion of you trying to defend your ignorance and political bias.

[Doug1029]

6 minutes ago, and then said:

I see...  Maybe you should tell Bill he didn't need to make a guilty plea, pay a huge fine and lose his Arkansas and USSC bar status.  Perjury, obstruction of justice, suborning perjury and witness tampering.  Those are a little more troublesome than "abuse of power" and "obstructing Congress".

But hey, the people didn't want to rock the boat and chance screwing up a hot economy so the Senate threw some love his way and he took the actions I just stated and was somewhat contrite.  Trump isn't making apologies because he committed no crime beyond defeating HRC.  

HRC's loss did come as a bit of a surprise at the time, but in retrospect, she probably had it coming.  The Dems took their working-class base for granted and did nothing to help them.  That never goes over well.

Trump's troubles aren't over.  The State of New York has been investigating him on financial crimes.  There are at least seven civil and two criminal cases pending.  The campaign finance violations expire in 2021, so if Trump loses the 2020 election, he'll probably face criminal prosecution.  Trump still has a lot to lose.

I think the total is something like 30 investigations still under way.

Doug

[Doug1029]

18 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Then are tons of sources online, only takes a few seconds on google but this doesnt seem to be about sources but more of a delaying tactic since you have shown your complete and utter ignorance of voting.

For cleaning up voter rolls

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1J71QQ

For fighting against voter ID laws

https://www.google.com/amp/s/pjmedia.com/trending/house-democrats-pass-bill-to-fight-voter-id-laws-nationwide/amp/

There are many more articles online but like I said this was probably never about proof but the last bastion of you trying to defend your ignorance and political bias.

Oklahoma purges its voter rolls each year if the person has been inactive for five years.  Doesn't seem to cause much of a fuss around here.  If you're purged and want back on, you just go to the courthouse and get put back on.

We have a problem pending, though.  The Feds are requiring a new driver's license as ID.  But the legislature is all up in arms about "state's rights" and the like and is refusing to comply.  This could present an interesting confrontation this fall.

One thing about voter ID laws:  are they protecting the system from anything?  As I recall, there have been only two or three prosecutions of individuals for using fake ID in voting in the last ten years.  Are we trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist?

These voter purges aren't always proper and legal:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/judge-says-north-carolina-illegally-purged-voter-lists-n677431

Properly done, they are just needed house keeping.  The problem is that the purges are done in secret, are prone to errors and vulnerable to manipulation.  Eligible, registered citizens often show up at the polls only to discover that their names have been struck.

Florida is has the worst record:  In 2004 it purged 48,000 "suspected felons" from its rolls - including many people eligible to vote.

It also purged 22,000 blacks, but only 61 Hispanics - racism?

Mississippi:  a local election official purged 10,000 voters a week before the last primary.

Muscogee, Georgia:  700 people were purged because the had "criminal convictions," but many had never even received a parking ticket.

Louisiana:  officials purged 21,000 names for registering to vote in another state, probably because they had similar names to those other voters.

The problem is that purges rely on lists that are full of errors.  Voters are purged secretly and given no chance to protest or appeal their status.

These are only some of the problems with voter purges.  They need to be done, but they need to be done properly and legally.

Doug

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Doug1029

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

That is a good post.  It is a viewpoint that might also be construed to reinforce the reasons that some of the foreign powers that might have the capability to meddle in US elections  want Trump to be reelected;   It is not for any benefit to America, but for their own reasons.  I don't  mean to twist your words if you disagree with that assessment, say so. 

Maybe they can just sit back and watch it happen.  Second  term may be a charm, looks like the Nobel Prize is within reach if your analysis is correct..

Meddling in other people's internal affairs has been a quintessential part of American foreign policy for decades. The internet is just a new twist on time honored practices and we are just as vulnerable as anyone else. Will the EU meddle to get Trump defeated? Who knows? It really wasn't a factor, last time, just absurd and amateurish. With eyes wide open going forward, it's not likely to ever be. 

[RavenHawk]

I still think that the Clinton impeachment was unwise.  It wasn't so much that he used the White House to satisfy himself, it was the coverup after.  But the remedy for that would have been to let the voters decide.  But it's the other Clinton that has more serious and documented crimes to be prosecuted.  I think that the October Surprise will center around Hilary's indictment and that's right after she steals the DNC nomination in a brokered convention.

[Doug1029]

3 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I still think that the Clinton impeachment was unwise.  It wasn't so much that he used the White House to satisfy himself, it was the coverup after.  But the remedy for that would have been to let the voters decide.  But it's the other Clinton that has more serious and documented crimes to be prosecuted.  I think that the October Surprise will center around Hilary's indictment and that's right after she steals the DNC nomination in a brokered convention.

I don't think Hillary will be nominated, even in a brokered convention.  In politics, it's usually "once-a-loser, always-a-loser."  The Democratic Party's rules have been changed since last time (Gee!  I wonder why.).  A lot fewer super-delegates means that the party will be more democratic than it was.  We also have a youth wing that wasn't there last time.  They won't like a borkered convention and will hold it against whoever tries to broker one.

Doug

[RavenHawk]

13 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Will the EU meddle to get Trump defeated?

Good thing England is no longer part of the EU.  If they were, we'd have to sick @bee and @RoofGardener on them! 

[Doug1029]

2 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Good thing England is no longer part of the EU.  If they were, we'd have to sick @bee and @RoofGardener on them! 

Now that meddling has been established as a proper course of action, do you think it would be fitting if Germany and France supported Bernie with money and advertising?

Doug

[Michelle]

48 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Properly done, they are just needed house keeping.  The problem is that the purges are done in secret, are prone to errors and vulnerable to manipulation.  Eligible, registered citizens often show up at the polls only to discover that their names have been struck.

Can't everyone update online these days? You said they have to go to the courthouse. We haven't had to do that for years. Ever since I was kicked off the rolls, for some reason for several elections, I check every year to make sure I am still listed. I also get an updated voter registration card in the mail every four years.

[Doug1029]

2 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Can't everyone update online these days? You said they have to go to the courthouse. We haven't had to do that for years. Ever since I was kicked off the rolls, for some reason for several elections, I check every year to make sure I am still listed. I also get an updated voter registration card in the mail every four years.

This is Backwater, Oklahoma.  We're not up-to-date in a lot of things.

Doug

[RavenHawk]

7 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Now that meddling has been established as a proper course of action, do you think it would be fitting if Germany and France supported Bernie with money and advertising?

Doug

Meddling has not been established (present tense), it was established long ago.  This is an action of a sovereign state.  It's not so much as*fitting* for them to do it as what is in the best interest of each nation?  But you seem to forget that Obama withheld aid to about 7 nations.  His apparatus hacked into Merkel's Iphone.  And Obama was trying to influence the Israeli elections.  Those are just the things we know about.  He was obviously not interested with the Russian meddling.  At least not until the plan to dig up dirt on Trump was hatched.  Obama knew Hilary didn't have a chance.

[RavenHawk]

6 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

This is Backwater, Oklahoma.  We're not up-to-date in a lot of things.

Doug

You need to come to New Mexico.

[Michelle]

5 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

This is Backwater, Oklahoma.  We're not up-to-date in a lot of things.

Doug

I don't live in a huge town, but the outskirt, small, farm towns do still have a little trouble getting the systems set up. But, they are quickly catching up. 

[RavenHawk]

If voting is important to someone, it should be up to them to ensure that their information is current.  Otherwise, they are the only one responsible for getting purged.