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GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus?

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GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

Interesting question and an example of the cognitive dissonance I constantly recognized as a child being indoctrinated into a sect of christianity. 

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Will Due

 

Kinda proves he wasn't a sacrifice for mankind.

So if he wasn't a sacrifice, what was he? :D

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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Festina

Exactly!

So then.....? A big fat lie? 

Edited by Festina Lente
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docyabut2

 Judas

Edited by docyabut2
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Habitat

Fabulous (mythical) rather than factual. Every good story needs a villain. Poor old Judas, he literally couldn't help do what he did, at least by my reading. It was already locked in to the plot. 

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LeonKennedy
7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Fabulous (mythical) rather than factual. Every good story needs a villain. Poor old Judas, he literally couldn't help do what he did, at least by my reading. It was already locked in to the plot. 

I don't believe it was "locked," in the plot,  but well...being God, he could see the future. Either way, Jesus was sent to be sacrificed.  I figure if Judas hadn't betrayed him, they still would've ended up nailing him to the cross. They were already closing in on him and Jesus being a sacrifice was the "lock" if anything.  That's how I see it anyway. 

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docyabut2
7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Fabulous (mythical) rather than factual. Every good story needs a villain. Poor old Judas, he literally couldn't help do what he did, at least by my reading. It was already locked in to the plot. 

Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus   in rap music for children  to learn of Jesus  

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Habitat
1 hour ago, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

This sacrifice nonsense is enough to do anyone's head in. I know on the rare occasions my mother ever burnt something when cooking, she would explain it as a "burnt sacrifice" !

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Golden Duck

The betrayal is just an act; there's no motive and there is no damnation attached to it.  The confusion is the consequence that it would be better for Judas if he had not been born, such is the woe.  It describes the greatness of the guilt rather than a prohibition of forgiveness.

The subsequent judgement, displayed by suicide, infers that his judgment, of being beyond forgiveness, is superior to God's.

Edited by Golden Duck
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Guyver
1 hour ago, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

He was possessed by the devil......according to the Bible.

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The Wistman

If memory serves, in The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakas, Jesus orders a reluctant Judas to inform the Sanhedrin priests about his whereabouts.  In the novel (and movie) there was no betrayal.

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joc
1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

The betrayal is just an act; there's no motive and there is no damnation attached to it.  The confusion is the consequence that it would be better for Judas if he had not been born, such is the woe.  It describes the greatness of the guilt rather than a prohibition of forgiveness.

The subsequent judgement, displayed by suicide, infers that his judgment, of being beyond forgiveness, is superior to God's.

Wow...that's pretty insightful there Golden Duck old boy!  I'll give you one and a half thumbs up! Oh hell, let's just make it two shall we? :tsu:

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joc
2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus   in rap music for children  to learn of Jesus  

You've never been to a Baptist church have you?

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus   in rap music for children  to learn of Jesus  

jmccr8

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Golden Duck
2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus   in rap music for children  to learn of Jesus  

Flowers are red; and, green leaves are green...

Except for the lilies of the field

 

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Davros of Skaro

It's symbolism.

His name in all NT documents is Judah (Ioudas); basically, “Jew.”. The stumbling of the Jewish people is part of God's plan.

Romans 11:11-12

"11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!"

Notice Paul does not give Judas as an example of one that at the Last Supper according to the Gospels eats, and drinks with the Lord in an unworthy manner.

1 Corithians 11:27

"27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord."

 

Mark, and then Matthew are fleshing out part of the Judas narrative with the "worthless shepard" in Zechariah 11.

 

 

 

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Davros of Skaro
5 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus   in rap music for children  to learn of Jesus  

I can give you a rap song about Jesus, but the censors will take it down.

"A Bunch Of Things JESUS Can Do! MUSIC VIDEO!"

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Mr Walker

The story is simple

it has two difernt actors and two perspectives or 3 if you count the audience

First jesus had to be sacrificed to atone for humanity's sins (in this theology) 

Second jesus knew he would be betrayed tht night not just by judas but by others of his followers who denied him.

He knew he would die and be reborn (in the narrative)  but would suffer greatly in the meantime 

Third christ never blamed judas. He forgave him

BUT judas could not forgive himself.

From his perspective he had  betrayed into death his leader and friend. 

He hung himself because his guilt was so great 

This indicates that in the writer's mind Judas  neither fully understood christ's nature or purpose (in the narrative) or he would have better understood his own  role 

if not for judas in this story, mankind would not have been redeemed (or else another mechanism would have had  to be found, to serve christ up for death and resurrection)  

How the reader sees it, all depends on how he sees, and how much he accepts/believes, about the entire story line   The writer, and thus the reader, has a much wider perspective than judas had,knowing tha that christ had to die, and needed a mechanism to deliver him to death; and knowing that this death was only temporary 

I've always felt really sorry for judas. Yes he was a betrayer, and thus without honour, because of his motivations, and he killed himself because he knew this,   but he was performing an essential role, and if he had known /understood this,  he perhaps could have lived out the rest of his life in peace    

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eight bits
8 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

Because there are at least two often incompatible ways to look at any moral choice:

Cosequentialism: To the extent that we can foresee the consequences of our actions, choose the act with the best estimated outcome.

Obligation-permission-prohibition: There are some specified acts that we must perform, some acts that we are allowed to perform but aren't required to, and still other acts that we must not perform.

Examples: The criminal justice system is o-p-p. Martin Luther King, Jr., often in jail for prohibited conduct, was consequentialist.

There's something to be said for either approach, and both have their limitations. Judas chose according to consequentialist principles (a cash reward and in the first and last Gopels, to resolve a policy dispute with the self-absorbed Jesus), and is often judged by prohibition standards (especially: don't be a snitch, regardless of the provocation).

It doesn't help Judas' reputation that the followers of Jesus became the dominant world religion, whereas the Second Temple (his own religion, which he surely didn't "betray," but rather kept faith) ceased to exist within about 30 years. Plus, as it turned out, Christianity became big on obligations and prohibitions. Woe to Judas, indeed.

Paul was more consequentialist than the religion he launched eventually became (IMO). Too bad, then, that Paul says nothing about Judas (as @Davros of Skaro mentions). That may be because the Judas character hadn't been invented yet - but that's another thread.

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third_eye

Hmmm.... 

Quote

 

[00.01:01]

~

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docyabut2

A modern rap musical movie like Jesus Christ superstar . 

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Robotic Jew
9 hours ago, The Wistman said:

If memory serves, in The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakas, Jesus orders a reluctant Judas to inform the Sanhedrin priests about his whereabouts.  In the novel (and movie) there was no betrayal.

This is true of The Gospel of Judas as well. Probably the inspiration?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Quote

In contrast to the canonical gospels, which paint Judas as a betrayer who delivered Jesus to the authorities for crucifixion in exchange for money, the Gospel of Judas portrays Judas's actions as done in obedience to instructions given to him by Jesus of Nazareth.

 

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Crikey
12 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

 

Judas was probably just an unwitting pawn in God's Plan, leading the guards to where Jesus was in Gethsemane, but even without him they'd have found Jesus sooner or later.

Anyway the ancient scriptures foretold the betrayal, so Judas had to unwittingly play his part to fulfil them.

"And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter" Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13, c.500 BC)

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