GoldenWolf Posted February 7, 2020 #1 Share Posted February 7, 2020 How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted February 7, 2020 #2 Share Posted February 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said: How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? Interesting question and an example of the cognitive dissonance I constantly recognized as a child being indoctrinated into a sect of christianity. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 7, 2020 #3 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) Kinda proves he wasn't a sacrifice for mankind. So if he wasn't a sacrifice, what was he? Edited February 7, 2020 by Will Due 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 7, 2020 #4 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) Exactly! So then.....? A big fat lie? Edited February 7, 2020 by Festina Lente 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 7, 2020 #5 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) Judas Edited February 7, 2020 by docyabut2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 7, 2020 #6 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot The Gospel of Matthew 26:15 states that Judas committed the betrayal in exchange for thirty pieces of silver. Edited February 7, 2020 by docyabut2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 7, 2020 #7 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Fabulous (mythical) rather than factual. Every good story needs a villain. Poor old Judas, he literally couldn't help do what he did, at least by my reading. It was already locked in to the plot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorasMask Posted February 7, 2020 #8 Share Posted February 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Habitat said: Fabulous (mythical) rather than factual. Every good story needs a villain. Poor old Judas, he literally couldn't help do what he did, at least by my reading. It was already locked in to the plot. I don't believe it was "locked," in the plot, but well...being God, he could see the future. Either way, Jesus was sent to be sacrificed. I figure if Judas hadn't betrayed him, they still would've ended up nailing him to the cross. They were already closing in on him and Jesus being a sacrifice was the "lock" if anything. That's how I see it anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 7, 2020 #9 Share Posted February 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Habitat said: Fabulous (mythical) rather than factual. Every good story needs a villain. Poor old Judas, he literally couldn't help do what he did, at least by my reading. It was already locked in to the plot. Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus in rap music for children to learn of Jesus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 7, 2020 #10 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, GoldenWolf said: How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? This sacrifice nonsense is enough to do anyone's head in. I know on the rare occasions my mother ever burnt something when cooking, she would explain it as a "burnt sacrifice" ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted February 7, 2020 #11 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) The betrayal is just an act; there's no motive and there is no damnation attached to it. The confusion is the consequence that it would be better for Judas if he had not been born, such is the woe. It describes the greatness of the guilt rather than a prohibition of forgiveness. The subsequent judgement, displayed by suicide, infers that his judgment, of being beyond forgiveness, is superior to God's. Edited February 7, 2020 by Golden Duck 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted February 7, 2020 #12 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, GoldenWolf said: How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? He was possessed by the devil......according to the Bible. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wistman Posted February 7, 2020 #13 Share Posted February 7, 2020 If memory serves, in The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakas, Jesus orders a reluctant Judas to inform the Sanhedrin priests about his whereabouts. In the novel (and movie) there was no betrayal. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted February 7, 2020 #14 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Golden Duck said: The betrayal is just an act; there's no motive and there is no damnation attached to it. The confusion is the consequence that it would be better for Judas if he had not been born, such is the woe. It describes the greatness of the guilt rather than a prohibition of forgiveness. The subsequent judgement, displayed by suicide, infers that his judgment, of being beyond forgiveness, is superior to God's. Wow...that's pretty insightful there Golden Duck old boy! I'll give you one and a half thumbs up! Oh hell, let's just make it two shall we? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted February 7, 2020 #15 Share Posted February 7, 2020 2 hours ago, docyabut2 said: Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus in rap music for children to learn of Jesus You've never been to a Baptist church have you? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 7, 2020 #16 Share Posted February 7, 2020 2 hours ago, docyabut2 said: Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus in rap music for children to learn of Jesus jmccr8 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted February 7, 2020 #17 Share Posted February 7, 2020 2 hours ago, docyabut2 said: Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus in rap music for children to learn of Jesus Flowers are red; and, green leaves are green... Except for the lilies of the field 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted February 7, 2020 #18 Share Posted February 7, 2020 It's symbolism. His name in all NT documents is Judah (Ioudas); basically, “Jew.”. The stumbling of the Jewish people is part of God's plan. Romans 11:11-12 "11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!" Notice Paul does not give Judas as an example of one that at the Last Supper according to the Gospels eats, and drinks with the Lord in an unworthy manner. 1 Corithians 11:27 "27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord." Mark, and then Matthew are fleshing out part of the Judas narrative with the "worthless shepard" in Zechariah 11. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted February 7, 2020 #19 Share Posted February 7, 2020 5 hours ago, docyabut2 said: Wish movies would bring out the story of Jesus in rap music for children to learn of Jesus I can give you a rap song about Jesus, but the censors will take it down. "A Bunch Of Things JESUS Can Do! MUSIC VIDEO!" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted February 7, 2020 #20 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) The story is simple it has two difernt actors and two perspectives or 3 if you count the audience First jesus had to be sacrificed to atone for humanity's sins (in this theology) Second jesus knew he would be betrayed tht night not just by judas but by others of his followers who denied him. He knew he would die and be reborn (in the narrative) but would suffer greatly in the meantime Third christ never blamed judas. He forgave him BUT judas could not forgive himself. From his perspective he had betrayed into death his leader and friend. He hung himself because his guilt was so great This indicates that in the writer's mind Judas neither fully understood christ's nature or purpose (in the narrative) or he would have better understood his own role if not for judas in this story, mankind would not have been redeemed (or else another mechanism would have had to be found, to serve christ up for death and resurrection) How the reader sees it, all depends on how he sees, and how much he accepts/believes, about the entire story line The writer, and thus the reader, has a much wider perspective than judas had,knowing tha that christ had to die, and needed a mechanism to deliver him to death; and knowing that this death was only temporary I've always felt really sorry for judas. Yes he was a betrayer, and thus without honour, because of his motivations, and he killed himself because he knew this, but he was performing an essential role, and if he had known /understood this, he perhaps could have lived out the rest of his life in peace Edited February 7, 2020 by Mr Walker 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted February 7, 2020 #21 Share Posted February 7, 2020 8 hours ago, GoldenWolf said: How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? Because there are at least two often incompatible ways to look at any moral choice: Cosequentialism: To the extent that we can foresee the consequences of our actions, choose the act with the best estimated outcome. Obligation-permission-prohibition: There are some specified acts that we must perform, some acts that we are allowed to perform but aren't required to, and still other acts that we must not perform. Examples: The criminal justice system is o-p-p. Martin Luther King, Jr., often in jail for prohibited conduct, was consequentialist. There's something to be said for either approach, and both have their limitations. Judas chose according to consequentialist principles (a cash reward and in the first and last Gopels, to resolve a policy dispute with the self-absorbed Jesus), and is often judged by prohibition standards (especially: don't be a snitch, regardless of the provocation). It doesn't help Judas' reputation that the followers of Jesus became the dominant world religion, whereas the Second Temple (his own religion, which he surely didn't "betray," but rather kept faith) ceased to exist within about 30 years. Plus, as it turned out, Christianity became big on obligations and prohibitions. Woe to Judas, indeed. Paul was more consequentialist than the religion he launched eventually became (IMO). Too bad, then, that Paul says nothing about Judas (as @Davros of Skaro mentions). That may be because the Judas character hadn't been invented yet - but that's another thread. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 7, 2020 #22 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Hmmm.... Quote [00.01:01] ~ 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 7, 2020 #23 Share Posted February 7, 2020 A modern rap musical movie like Jesus Christ superstar . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robotic Jew Posted February 7, 2020 #24 Share Posted February 7, 2020 9 hours ago, The Wistman said: If memory serves, in The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakas, Jesus orders a reluctant Judas to inform the Sanhedrin priests about his whereabouts. In the novel (and movie) there was no betrayal. This is true of The Gospel of Judas as well. Probably the inspiration? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas Quote In contrast to the canonical gospels, which paint Judas as a betrayer who delivered Jesus to the authorities for crucifixion in exchange for money, the Gospel of Judas portrays Judas's actions as done in obedience to instructions given to him by Jesus of Nazareth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crikey Posted February 7, 2020 #25 Share Posted February 7, 2020 12 hours ago, GoldenWolf said: How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? Judas was probably just an unwitting pawn in God's Plan, leading the guards to where Jesus was in Gethsemane, but even without him they'd have found Jesus sooner or later. Anyway the ancient scriptures foretold the betrayal, so Judas had to unwittingly play his part to fulfil them. "And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter" Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13, c.500 BC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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