Will Due Posted February 11, 2020 #101 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Quote Judas was an only son of unwise parents. When very young, he was pampered and petted; he was a spoiled child. Sometimes it's too late. When a thing or person gets spoiled. It's just a part of nature. You do what you can. Nobody's gonna eat a rotten banana. Yuck. But unlike rotten fruit, a person has the opportunity to rejuvenate themselves. Many spoiled ones have done it. Many are doing it right now. And many more will do it in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #102 Share Posted February 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, Will Due said: You don't have kids do you. If you did, you wouldn't ask such a question. I don't know that being a parent is analogous to being as great an influence and "teacher" as JC is said to have been. We are talking about someone with the stamp of God. Why did this bloke Judas fall through the cracks ? It is saying that some people are "lost causes" ? Boy, that opens the floodgates for people to behave badly. Anyone I don't like can be disrespected because they are just hopeless cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 11, 2020 #103 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Habitat said: I don't know that being a parent is analogous to being as great an influence and "teacher" as JC is said to have been. We are talking about someone with the stamp of God. Why did this bloke Judas fall through the cracks ? It is saying that some people are "lost causes" ? Boy, that opens the floodgates for people to behave badly. Anyone I don't like can be disrespected because they are just hopeless cases. Love your enemies. That's the solution. LOVE Judas didn't "fall through the cracks". Like many do, they squeeze themselves through them. Sometimes with great effort and determination. Which is pretty unforgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #104 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Will Due said: Which is pretty unforgivable. That's the "Bad Egg" Theory. And whilst some say Christianity goes beyond that kind of thinking. In practice, it seems not to. People get punished for anti-social behaviour with jail, as a practical measure to smooth the running of society, but the "eternal damnation" doctrine seems purely retributive, and have no practical use, other than to allow angry people to revel in the supposed suffering of others, who are no threat to anyone. And that is an immature response that should not be pandered to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #105 Share Posted February 11, 2020 15 minutes ago, Will Due said: Love your enemies. 15 minutes ago, Will Due said: Which is pretty unforgivable. How can those two co-exist, in a coherent philosophy ? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 11, 2020 #106 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Habitat said: How can those two co-exist, in a coherent philosophy ? It's just nuts and bolts Hab. Your going overboard with the Christian thing bro. Unforgivable. If one offs themselves, IT'S OVER. There's nothing there anymore to forgive. Hence, it's unforgivable. That's all. No one can undo it. It can't be forgiven for that reason. The nut doesn't have a bolt to be a part of anymore. It's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #107 Share Posted February 11, 2020 How many times have you heard someone say, "I hope he/she/they burns in hell" ? Many ! Perish the thought some would imagine themselves to be Christians, but they appear to be acknowledging, or hoping for, a "beyond" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #108 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Will Due said: It's just nuts and bolts Hab. Your going overboard with the Christian thing bro. Unforgivable. If one offs themselves, IT'S OVER. There's nothing there anymore to forgive. Hence, it's unforgivable. That's all. No one can undo it. It can't be forgiven for that reason. The nut doesn't have a bolt to be a part of anymore. It's sad. Oh dear, I think you are off the straight and narrow ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #109 Share Posted February 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Will Due said: It's just nuts and bolts Hab. It is just self-serving, that's what it is. What I see in most "bad" people, is basically a mix of stupidity and poor impulse control. Judas wasn't too smart, was he ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 11, 2020 #110 Share Posted February 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Habitat said: It is just self-serving, that's what it is. What I see in most "bad" people, is basically a mix of stupidity and poor impulse control. Judas wasn't too smart, was he ? That's about the size of it. What do ya do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #111 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Will Due said: That's about the size of it. What do ya do. What society does is lock people up who don't play the game, and not worry too much about the reasons they do what they do. In many cases, people who are overtly "religious", are basically engaged in self-serving nonsense where cheap platitudes rule, and "loving your enemy" really not part of the equation. Edited February 11, 2020 by Habitat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 11, 2020 #112 Share Posted February 11, 2020 24 minutes ago, Will Due said: It's just nuts and bolts Hab. Your going overboard with the Christian thing bro. Unforgivable. If one offs themselves, IT'S OVER. There's nothing there anymore to forgive. Hence, it's unforgivable. That's all. No one can undo it. It can't be forgiven for that reason. The nut doesn't have a bolt to be a part of anymore. It's sad. I think suicide is unforgivable in ancient Judaism, because a sacrifice had to be made to purge the sin. In Catholism, suicide is a Mortal Sin, and even people who live through it (AFAIK) are damned for it. In Evangelical Protestant Christianity, suicide isnt any more a sin then murdering someone, or premarital sex. You are already forgiven, and just need to believe you will be. You need to forgive yourself, in other words. This can theoretically occur even after death, IMHO. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted February 11, 2020 #113 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) Who were Cephas and the twelve? Did the Jackson 5 ever have six members? Edited February 11, 2020 by Golden Duck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 11, 2020 #114 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Will Due said: Sometimes it's too late. When a thing or person gets spoiled. It's just a part of nature. You do what you can. Nobody's gonna eat a rotten banana. Yuck. But unlike rotten fruit, a person has the opportunity to rejuvenate themselves. Many spoiled ones have done it. Many are doing it right now. And many more will do it in the future. Actually the "bad" bananas go into making banana bread. I'd agree, while a person lives, it's not too late to turn things around. It is a person's personal belief they are beyond redemption that makes them so. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #115 Share Posted February 11, 2020 58 minutes ago, DieChecker said: It is a person's personal belief they are beyond redemption that makes them so. Really ? In society's eyes there is no redemption for people who have committed the most serious crimes, and whether they think they would not reoffend doesn't enter into the calculation. Their past deeds makes that choice for them. Yet we have this Christian idea of redemption for the worst, that somehow does not apply to Judas ? "Unforgiveable", says Will. So what is this business of loving such people, and what does it entail, if they can expect no forgiveness ? I think I like the common sense of the law, a lot more than the crazy logic of Christian "love", as espoused by many. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 11, 2020 #116 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Habitat said: Really ? In society's eyes there is no redemption for people who have committed the most serious crimes, and whether they think they would not reoffend doesn't enter into the calculation. Their past deeds makes that choice for them. Yet we have this Christian idea of redemption for the worst, that somehow does not apply to Judas ? "Unforgiveable", says Will. So what is this business of loving such people, and what does it entail, if they can expect no forgiveness ? I think I like the common sense of the law, a lot more than the crazy logic of Christian "love", as espoused by many. Hab, you go too far. Quote The worlds have found it difficult to forgive Judas, and his name has become eschewed throughout a far-flung universe. They didn't say that the worlds don't forgive Judas, they said the worlds "found it difficult" to forgive him. Which implies that he is. Edited February 11, 2020 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 11, 2020 #117 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Habitat said: Really ? In society's eyes there is no redemption for people who have committed the most serious crimes, and whether they think they would not reoffend doesn't enter into the calculation. Their past deeds makes that choice for them. Luckily, Christian redemption comes from God and not from the community. Quote Yet we have this Christian idea of redemption for the worst, that somehow does not apply to Judas ? It applies. Judas is going to get to stand before Jesus and plead his case, just like you and I will. If he is repentant, I dont see why he cant be forgiven. Quote "Unforgiveable", says Will. So what is this business of loving such people, and what does it entail, if they can expect no forgiveness ? I think I like the common sense of the law, a lot more than the crazy logic of Christian "love", as espoused by many. Loving people doesn't mean being an idiot, and it doesnt mean letting them hurt you. We are all to love each other, but you can love someone and punish them. You can love someone and not forget what they did. Loving someone doesnt mean enabling. Thst said though, I would agree a lot if Christians are taught to be angry, judgemental, even hateful... when such is not what they should be. Edit: Also my Christian view may differ from Will's. I believe he follows the Urantia Book. Edited February 11, 2020 by DieChecker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted February 11, 2020 #118 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, DieChecker said: It applies. Judas is going to get to stand before Jesus and plead his case, just like you and I will. If he is repentant, I dont see why he cant be forgiven. Jesus is in the tin for not being able to get the best out of Judas, as I see it. Forgiveness involves understanding why people do what they do, more than anything. Edited February 11, 2020 by Habitat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jypsijemini Posted February 11, 2020 #119 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 11, 2020 #120 Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Habitat said: Jesus is in the tin for not being able to get the best out of Judas, as I see it. Forgiveness involves understanding why people do what they do, more than anything. Like faith, and love, true forgiveness occurs regardless of reasons, or evidence. To understand a person perhaps will encourage forgiveness, but doing so regardless is a more godly thing to do. If you mean a person should know themself to better forgive themself, then that's probably true. Its critical to understand why you did something in order to truly forgive oneself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jypsijemini Posted February 11, 2020 #121 Share Posted February 11, 2020 www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/judastxt.pdf Worth a read if you can make any sense of it. There's a lot of the ancient script that's missing but just the fact that it exists and can be dated around the same era as the Gospels absolutely floors me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jypsijemini Posted February 11, 2020 #122 Share Posted February 11, 2020 4 hours ago, DieChecker said: It applies. Judas is going to get to stand before Jesus and plead his case, just like you and I will. If he is repentant, I dont see why he cant be forgiven. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not die but have eternal life." Yet we're still going to have to stand before The Judge and plead our case at the End? Well that blows. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coil Posted February 11, 2020 #123 Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 2/7/2020 at 2:30 AM, GoldenWolf said: How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind? The tension of the hostile forces in that place was so great that they somehow would have killed Christ if not through Judah so through other people. Since these forces impede and try to kill spiritual or brilliant people around the world who enlighten humanity. That is why Christ is the sacrifice and not because God wanted to kill him intentionally with the hands of the devil in order to make a sacrifice of him and accordingly give him the halo of a martyr. Christianity is too focused on the tragedy of the martyr because the mission of Christ remained incomplete, therefore, the second coming of Christ is needed and then the symbol will not be crucified Christ but transfigured humanity. After suicide, Judas fell to a very difficult level of hell for the betrayal of Christ, where no man has ever gone and his torment was extremely great. For how many centuries he was unknown there but now he prays at the astral level every day but is completely alone and can only be seen from afar the glow of his prayers. When the Antichrist incarnates on earth, Judah will incarnate too to form a movement against the Antichrist and die at his hands by martyrdom, thereby redeeming his betrayal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 11, 2020 #124 Share Posted February 11, 2020 13 hours ago, Will Due said: What do you do with those such as Judas? Not even God can save them. Miracles do them no good. Hi Will So god can’t forgive a rat but murderers are okay huh. jmccr8 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 11, 2020 #125 Share Posted February 11, 2020 27 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Will So god can’t forgive a rat but murderers are okay huh. jmccr8 Judas commited suicide. When a person turns their back on existence what can anyone do to change that? God can't even change that. They don't exist anymore so there's nobody there to forgive. They're gone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts