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GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus?

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Jujo-jo
On 2/6/2020 at 7:30 PM, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

He needed to & Jesus was aware of it and even told his disciples ahead of time that one of them would.

He obviously couldn't live with that decision and so they say committed he suicide.

But if he had not we would not know Jesus today and we would not know his words or his teachings.

We would not have the cross as the embolization of christianity.

Ultimately what drove him to betray Jesus was money, politics and intimidation.

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Hammerclaw

Judas is an antisemitic trope created by the early church to separate and distinguish Christians from Jews, after the the Jewish revolt. The very name is indicative of that purpose. 

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Jujo-jo
On 2/6/2020 at 7:30 PM, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

Unlike most paintintings of the last supper, here is a rare print of a painting that depicts Judas leaving the last supper to go do the deed.

20200208_182049_compress66_resize_89_compress52.jpg

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Festina

Appears it was all bosh ...all bosh.  

Perfect people are not 2,000 years late. 

 

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Jujo-jo
On 2/6/2020 at 7:30 PM, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

This topic is a good one and in the correct section for debate.

Sorry people can be rude and let there immaturity show through words.

 

Edited by Jujo-jo
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Habitat

The "villain of the piece", a much-needed storytelling device.

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Jujo-jo
30 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Judas is an antisemitic trope created by the early church to separate and distinguish Christians from Jews, after the the Jewish revolt. The very name is indicative of that purpose. 

They didn't need to separate Jews from Christian's, their was previously and already the term "Gentiles".

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WanderingFool0
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Judas is an antisemitic trope created by the early church to separate and distinguish Christians from Jews, after the the Jewish revolt. The very name is indicative of that purpose. 

I don't think Judas is an anti-Semitic trope, since the apostles were Jewish. I personally think the various apostles represented different ideas, movements and groups within the messianic Judaic community.

I think Judas represented the more militant and revolutionary minded messianic jews who were waiting for the Yahwey's warhorse version of the messiah; a reborn king David that would gather an army and lead a revolution to drive the Romans out of Israel. When Jesus failed to be that warrior messiah those groups “betrayed” him by rejecting him as the messiah all together. The biblical judgment of Judas was a symbolic judgment of those groups by the early church.

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Captain Risky
On 2/7/2020 at 10:30 AM, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

God's will is preordained.  

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Horta

Wasn't there a gnostic "Gospel of Judas", where he was the hero? The only disciple who understood what jesus was about and realised he wanted to end it, but couldn't do it himself for "spiritual" reasons. So he played his part and helped him. While the other disciples were dolts.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Jujo-jo said:

They didn't need to separate Jews from Christian's, their was previously and already the term "Gentiles".

Most early Christians were Jews and/or proselyte Jews, as Judaism accepted converts in that era. Christianity was perceived as a heretical sect of the greater Jewish Faith. 

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Horta said:

Wasn't there a gnostic "Gospel of Judas", where he was the hero? The only disciple who understood what jesus was about and realised he wanted to end it, but couldn't do it himself for "spiritual" reasons. So he played his part and helped him. While the other disciples were dolts.

Not exactly. Jesus in that Gospel was rather contemptuous of Judas. 

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Hammerclaw
35 minutes ago, WanderingFool0 said:

I don't think Judas is an anti-Semitic trope, since the apostles were Jewish. I personally think the various apostles represented different ideas, movements and groups within the messianic Judaic community.

I think Judas represented the more militant and revolutionary minded messianic jews who were waiting for the Yahwey's warhorse version of the messiah; a reborn king David that would gather an army and lead a revolution to drive the Romans out of Israel. When Jesus failed to be that warrior messiah those groups “betrayed” him by rejecting him as the messiah all together. The biblical judgment of Judas was a symbolic judgment of those groups by the early church.

It's been used to justify antisemitic pogroms throughout Church history. There's no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus' ministry. All we have were written down decades after. The tale grew in the telling.

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docyabut2

What makes me sad is every Christian church's of the branches  I went to,  most tells of the OT and Paul  instead of all the riddles Jesus had  said, but why he died but why he lived, and   but why  Judas didn't survive three days later :)

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WanderingFool0
30 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's been used to justify antisemitic pogroms throughout Church history. There's no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus' ministry. All we have were written down decades after. The tale grew in the telling.

Yes I am aware the figure of Judas was used as an antisemitic trope by the later church, but I do not believe that was the intent of him in it's writing. Even if it were it makes no logical sense in that if most of the apostles were Jewish, than the actions of the one apostle;Judas, can't be a reflection of Jews as a whole.

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Judas is an antisemitic trope created by the early church to separate and distinguish Christians from Jews, after the the Jewish revolt. The very name is indicative of that purpose. 

Um didn't the  modern meaning follow/ evolve from,  the name /action of judas ? In Hebrew it is a very common name meaning one of the following

Translations of Judas

noun

יְהוּדָה

Judas, Yehuda, Judah, Judaea

The name Judas is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Judah, in Hebrew יהודה (ye-hu-dah, Strong's #3063). Most Hebrew dictionaries will define this name as "praise," but as this English word is an abstract word it falls short of its true Hebraic meaning. The parent root of this word is יד (yad, Strong's #3027) meaning "hand". The child root ידה (Y.D.H, Strong's #3034) is derived from yad and means "to throw or stretch out the hand" and is the base root in the name Yehudah. If you were standing on the rim of the Grand Canyon for the first time you might throw your hands out and say "Wow, will you look at that". This is the Hebraic understanding of "praise" and the name Yehudah.

 

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/names/Judas.htm

Edited by Mr Walker

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Habitat
14 minutes ago, WanderingFool0 said:

Yes I am aware the figure of Judas was used as an antisemitic trope by the later church, but I do not believe that was the intent of him in it's writing. Even if it were it makes no logical sense in that if most of the apostles were Jewish, than the actions of the one apostle;Judas, can't be a reflection of Jews as a whole.

That's a good point, but did the name Judas has more ready identification with being Jewish, at that time ?

Edited by Habitat

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Judas is an antisemitic trope created by the early church to separate and distinguish Christians from Jews, after the the Jewish revolt. The very name is indicative of that purpose. 

I think you are right about how it was used. but even as a child and an atheist it puzzled me how the early  church declaimed judas as a jew yet failed to recognise that,  all his life christ was one, and lived and worshipped as one, preaching almost exclusively to other jews. 

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Dejarma
On 2/7/2020 at 12:43 AM, Will Due said:

Kinda proves he wasn't a sacrifice for mankind.

So if he wasn't a sacrifice, what was he?

false 

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Tuco's Gas

Recently a few revisionist writers of Christian history, like Karen Armstrong and John Shelby Spong, have espoused the view that Judas was actually in cahoots with JC in order to further carry out his (Jesus') plan.

This, based on a fairly-new discovery of "The Lost Gospel of Judas."

It all kinda makes sense when you read it and think about it. It nicely solves the dilemma of how a supposedly omniscient God could be hoodwinked.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-gospel-says-judas-was-following-jesus-s-orders-1.1035708

Edited by Tuco's Gas
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Tuco's Gas
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not exactly. Jesus in that Gospel was rather contemptuous of Judas. 

Hmm...I didn't take it that way. Check it out...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-gospel-says-judas-was-following-jesus-s-orders-1.1035708

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Tuco's Gas
3 hours ago, Jujo-jo said:

He needed to & Jesus was aware of it and even told his disciples ahead of time that one of them would.

He obviously couldn't live with that decision and so they say committed he suicide.

But if he had not we would not know Jesus today and we would not know his words or his teachings.

We would not have the cross as the embolization of christianity.

Ultimately what drove him to betray Jesus was money, politics and intimidation.

"It's politics, man. Politics!"

--Junior, from the movie "Platoon."

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