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GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus?

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Liquid Gardens
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

All western law remains founded on judeo christian principles and not any other values or beliefs.

Hahaha, ah, no.  Where will I find freedom of religion in Judeo-Christian principles?  Where will I find the idea that government power ultimately resides in the governed?  The Bible does not feature very prominently in the sources for America's Constitution which had a lot more to do with Enlightenment thinking.

Edited by Liquid Gardens
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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Of course we do and I'm still working on me :tu:

It would take a massive toll on many people unless it was one of those cute ": nose twitching Bewitched" moments. Think about it for a moment people invest large amounts of money to qualify and get a degree to help those poor disadvantaged people and have to pay their student loans you heal the worlds wounds and your displacing other people that have no job to pay their loans.:unsure2:

jmccr8

IMO Australia has one of the best balances between capitalism and socialism Eg schooling and medical expenses are either free or very cheap depending on your income 

The rich pay enough taxes to support the poor, but not enough to create a disincentive to create wealth 

Thus here it is possible for a family to go from poverty to multimillionaires within a generation through either education or hard /clever work 

Poverty (here)  is largely a matter of perception with very few unable to be provided with adequate shelter, food, clothing, etc except where the y choose to make this difficult by purchasing new phones tv s etc,  or otherwise spend on wants not needs   I understand it may be very difernt in America  Here my wife and i live comfortably on 38000 a year including 12000 spent on our mortgage.,

All medical expenses are basically free and there is a lot of financial support for carers for people with disabilities or  old age.   Still my TV is 9 years old, my phone at least 5 ,My computer about 10 and my car 7 years We haven't been on a holiday for 15 years But none of that worries us at all.We are warm safe well fed and occupied every day   Books and dvds are free from  the state library sytem and magazines and books can be borrowed free online  Free papers are available a t coffee shops and libraries    It is a bit of a struggle to pay electricity and water despite us having solar power and batteries and large water tanks but we also get subsidies on all forms of govt charges, being aged pensioners 

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docyabut2

gee all Jesus was the ancestor  of Isaac, while Mohammad was the ancestor of Ismael,  

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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Yes it was and this isn't Hollywood so we can't say it like it is.

I can understand you lack of essence for understanding racism we have different experiences and if someone would have been a bigot about me being Irish I would have thanked them

We are discussing this in the present and can/do exercise a social awareness for expressing certain subjects.

jmccr8

I disagree Our present attitudes and values evolve from  our past experiences 

His experience of unjust imprisonment, basically because of racial problems, shaped his attitudes 

The real argument  is, is the story true and should he allow it to shape his atitudes .My tentative response to both is yes 

I dont have anytime at all for subjective, politically correct, speak 

We need to be honest, clear, and objective, and able to say exactly what a problem is in order to correct or overcome that problem 

Poverty and disadvantage are not excuses for poor behaviour, although we should be working towards reducing poverty and disdvanathe 

Rich or poor, black or white, the laws and rules of a democracy should be applied equally to all  

If there is a lot of "black" poverty, and this is causing crime, then we need to reduce the poverty, but not allow it to become an excuse for illegal or uncivil behavior. 

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Mr Walker
8 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Hahaha, ah, no.  Where will I find freedom of religion in Judeo-Christian principles?  Where will I find the idea that government power ultimately resides in the governed?  The Bible does not feature very prominently in the sources for America's Constitution which had a lot more to do with Enlightenment thinking.

Kinda a different argument 

the laws and rules come from judeo christian values and principles.

That is simply a known fact. 

however social evolution adapts and adds to, or takes away from those laws as the y become less applicable.

Freedom of religion is a modern overlay. It still does not exist in some countries   So is democracy (been less than a century since certain citizens got the vote)

aks WHY, however, those principles evolved and you get back to christian values of love compassion justice and mercy 

Often it is also tied onto the christian concept  of worth being tied to property or  value of a person  (Hence women and non property owners lagged behind in gaining voting and other rights)  

human rights and property rights (the basis of american law) come from biblical values  Imagine if american law was based on viking laws or native american laws  or mayan laws. 

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docyabut2

There is no racism now. black people have to forgive  slavery,  when everyone had  a ancient ancestors  that was a slave. to everyone has to believe we are all  are  from Lucy

 

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docyabut2
11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Kinda a different argument 

the laws and rules come from judeo christian values and principles.

That is simply a known fact. 

however social evolution adapts and adds to, or takes away from those laws as the y become less applicable.

Freedom of religion is a modern overlay. It still does not exist in some countries   So is democracy (been less than a century since certain citizens got the vote)

aks WHY, however, those principles evolved and you get back to christian values of love compassion justice and mercy 

Often it is also tied onto the christian concept  of worth being tied to property or  value of a person  (Hence women and non property owners lagged behind in gaining voting and other rights)  

human rights and property rights (the basis of american law) come from biblical values  Imagine if american law was based on viking laws or native american laws  or mayan laws. 

our  laws are from the ten commandments do not kill, steal or cheat or  lie    

Edited by docyabut2

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docyabut2

Jesus said he didn't change the  ancient Jewish laws but to add them to :)

Edited by docyabut2

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Mr Walker
16 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

our  laws are from the ten commandments do not kill, steal or cheat or  lie    

BAsically yes. However there are deeper more specific laws about relationships between people.

Some still apply Others do not .

The reason we do not go nude in public. marry more than one wife at a time  or until very recently could only marry someone of the opposite sex are also from  biblical laws and rules The reasons we have weekends off  comes from the observation of both the sabbath day, as in jewish law, and the sunday from  pagan christianity. In the last 3 or so decades many of these laws have been weakened or overturned but they still underpin the fabric of most western society 

The reason is historical.

Christianity became the state religion of the roman empire, which occupied most of europe. Christian missionaries converted non roman parts of europe Hence Europe was almost universally christian with both church and state entwined in laws daily life   rulings and politics. In parts of spain/ portugal there was a muslim government for a while but  this was  possibly even more based on abrahamic laws 

Then of course Europe colonised the rest of the world, with a few exceptions, and spread christianity to those countries also 

You have to look at pre european indigenous cultures to understand how different life could be without christian laws and values 

Eg in may parts of the world cannibalism was common   Stealing was considered a virtue A man's life had a monetary value or none a t all 

Even america was founded as a christian nation ( allowing for plurality of religion after the state religions of Europe drove many of the early protestant colonialists to America )

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docyabut2
11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

BAsically yes. However there are deeper more specific laws about relationships between people.

Some still apply Others do not .

The reason we do not go nude in public. marry more than one wife at a time  or until very recently could only marry someone of the opposite sex are also from  biblical laws and rules The reasons we have weekends off  comes from the observation of both the sabbath day, as in jewish law, and the sunday from  pagan christianity. In the last 3 or so decades many of these laws have been weakened or overturned but they still underpin the fabric of most western society 

The reason is historical.

Christianity became the state religion of the roman empire, which occupied most of europe. Christian missionaries converted non roman parts of europe Hence Europe was almost universally christian with both church and state entwined in laws daily life   rulings and politics. In parts of spain/ portugal there was a muslim government for a while but  this was  possibly even more based on abrahamic laws 

Then of course Europe colonised the rest of the world, with a few exceptions, and spread christianity to those countries also 

You have to look at pre european indigenous cultures to understand how different life could be without christian laws and values 

Eg in may parts of the world cannibalism was common   Stealing was considered a virtue A man's life had a monetary value or none a t all 

Even america was founded as a christian nation ( allowing for plurality of religion after the state religions of Europe drove many of the early protestant colonialists to America )

the reason the Jesus said one wife ?sexual   diseases

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Liquid Gardens
53 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Freedom of religion is a modern overlay. It still does not exist in some countries   So is democracy (been less than a century since certain citizens got the vote)

aks WHY, however, those principles evolved and you get back to christian values of love compassion justice and mercy 

Sounds like then freedom of religion comes from something other than judeo-christian principles, counter to your claim.  Uh, no you do not 'get back to' the Christian values of love, etc, you go maybe 'through' those Christian values since those values significantly predate Christianity.

13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Even america was founded as a christian nation

Curious then how Christ goes unmentioned in our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

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Liquid Gardens
53 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

our  laws are from the ten commandments do not kill, steal or cheat or  lie

'Our' like in the US?  About 7.5 of the Commandments, if they were laws, would be outright unconstitutional.

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Mr Walker
5 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

the reason the Jesus said one wife ?sexual   diseases

possibly Most of the  biblical laws were based on practical reasons understood from observation.

however it is just as likely to be cultural/economic  eg one man could only support one wife OR if one man had 10 wives others would have none.  

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Mr Walker
9 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

'Our' like in the US?  About 7.5 of the Commandments, if they were laws, would be outright unconstitutional.

here is one version of the 10 commandments (I chose the catholic one because it is actually NOT the version i favour) 

Can you point out which (if any) would be unconstitutional) 

The constitution enshrines freedom OF religion FROM GOVERNMENT CONTROL so even the one about worshipping this one god fits inside the constitution

quote

“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.

“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

The faithful are required to honor the name of God. It makes sense that if you’re to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you’re naturally to respect the name of God with equal passion and vigor.

“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”

The Jewish celebration of Sabbath (Shabbat) begins at sundown on Friday evening and lasts until sundown on Saturday. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians go to church on Sunday, treating it as the Lord’s Day instead of Saturday to honor the day Christ rose from the dead.

“Honor thy father and mother.”

This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

“Thou shalt not kill.”

The better translation from the Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder” — a subtle distinction but an important one to the Church. Killing an innocent person is considered murder. Killing an unjust aggressor to preserve your own life is still killing, but it isn’t considered murder or immoral.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

The sixth and ninth commandments honor human sexuality. This commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immoral sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. This commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, m********ion, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and **********.

“Thou shalt not steal.”

The seventh and tenth commandments focus on respecting and honoring the possessions of others. This commandment forbids the act of taking someone else’s property. The Catholic Church believes that this commandment also denounces cheating people of their money or property, depriving workers of their just wage, or not giving employers a full day’s work for a full day’s pay. Embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, and vandalism are all considered extensions of violations of the Seventh Commandment.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”

The Ninth Commandment forbids the intentional desire and longing for immoral sexuality. To sin in the heart, Jesus says, is to lust after a woman or a man in your heart with the desire and will to have immoral sex with them. Just as human life is a gift from God and needs to be respected, defended, and protected, so, too, is human sexuality. Catholicism regards human sexuality as a divine gift, so it’s considered sacred in the proper context — marriage.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The Tenth Commandment forbids the wanting to or taking someone else’s property. Along with the Seventh Commandment, this commandment condemns theft and the feelings of envy, greed, and jealousy in reaction to what other people have.

 

https://www.dummies.com/religion/christianity/catholicism/catholicism-and-the-ten-commandments/

 

Indeed until very recently 9 of them WERE law in (all or parts of)  the US, and even today a majority of them remain so 

Edited by Mr Walker

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DieChecker

https://www.theclassroom.com/did-bible-influence-us-constitution-11384841.html

Quote

How Did the Bible Influence the U.S. Constitution?

Quote

For example, in a letter to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, John Adams writes, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Quote

Origins of Constitutional Law

While the Constitution does not explicitly refer to God, the concepts of law which it contains stem from the cultural assumptions of basic biblical truths widely held by the people of that time regardless of their actual piety towards God. In other words, it is an inarguable fact that not all Americans of that era actually held to the Christian faith, yet they held to the commonly accepted morals, ethics and standards of behavior derived from English Common Law, which drew from biblical law given to the Hebrews by God.

 

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docyabut2
40 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

possibly Most of the  biblical laws were based on practical reasons understood from observation.

however it is just as likely to be cultural/economic  eg one man could only support one wife OR if one man had 10 wives others would have none.  

adultery:) what I  believe of the bible

Edited by docyabut2

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DieChecker
48 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

Curious then how Christ goes unmentioned in our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

Because they wanted freedom of religion. To specifically call out Jesus, Christ, Chiristianity, or God, in the Constitution would limit freedoms.

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Sherapy
37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

here is one version of the 10 commandments (I chose the catholic one because it is actually NOT the version i favour) 

Can you point out which (if any) would be unconstitutional) 

The constitution enshrines freedom OF religion FROM GOVERNMENT CONTROL so even the one about worshipping this one god fits inside the constitution

quote

“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.

“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

The faithful are required to honor the name of God. It makes sense that if you’re to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you’re naturally to respect the name of God with equal passion and vigor.

“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”

The Jewish celebration of Sabbath (Shabbat) begins at sundown on Friday evening and lasts until sundown on Saturday. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians go to church on Sunday, treating it as the Lord’s Day instead of Saturday to honor the day Christ rose from the dead.

“Honor thy father and mother.”

This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

“Thou shalt not kill.”

The better translation from the Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder” — a subtle distinction but an important one to the Church. Killing an innocent person is considered murder. Killing an unjust aggressor to preserve your own life is still killing, but it isn’t considered murder or immoral.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

The sixth and ninth commandments honor human sexuality. This commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immoral sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. This commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, m********ion, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and **********.

“Thou shalt not steal.”

The seventh and tenth commandments focus on respecting and honoring the possessions of others. This commandment forbids the act of taking someone else’s property. The Catholic Church believes that this commandment also denounces cheating people of their money or property, depriving workers of their just wage, or not giving employers a full day’s work for a full day’s pay. Embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, and vandalism are all considered extensions of violations of the Seventh Commandment.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”

The Ninth Commandment forbids the intentional desire and longing for immoral sexuality. To sin in the heart, Jesus says, is to lust after a woman or a man in your heart with the desire and will to have immoral sex with them. Just as human life is a gift from God and needs to be respected, defended, and protected, so, too, is human sexuality. Catholicism regards human sexuality as a divine gift, so it’s considered sacred in the proper context — marriage.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The Tenth Commandment forbids the wanting to or taking someone else’s property. Along with the Seventh Commandment, this commandment condemns theft and the feelings of envy, greed, and jealousy in reaction to what other people have.

 

https://www.dummies.com/religion/christianity/catholicism/catholicism-and-the-ten-commandments/

 

Indeed until very recently 9 of them WERE law in (all or parts of)  the US, and even today a majority of them remain so 

Laws in the US? What are you talking about?

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docyabut2

 the Constitution the right to  life and the pursuit of happiness .

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docyabut2
Just now, docyabut2 said:

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness " is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence.[1

that the darn  democrats  who supported abortion killing  and  open sexuality

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Laws in the US? What are you talking about?

How many of those l0 commandments   contradict the constitution of the US as claimed ? 

Only one, and that was only decided last century by legal challenge 

All the others are not only constitutional but 8 of them are enshrined in US laws 

eg the law still gives parents control of their children and expects children to obey legal commands of their parents 

It is against the law to murder 

it is against the law to steal 

Adultery remains a crime in some places and a social stigma in others  in its wider definition prostitution and  some other sexual behaviours are illegal

Lying is often illegal in a legal context ie when in it is committed  in  a contract or on an oath  Lying to a boss is grounds for dismissal 

Despite may revisions, Sunday laws apply across america restricting many activities (as indeed the y do in australia)

They may not be interpreted as sunday laws but tha t is how the y began and that is why they remain  The y are constitutional if an argument can be made for their social benefit or need rather than a purely religious reason 

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jypsijemini
On 2/17/2020 at 5:29 AM, Sherapy said:

Jypsi, I think it is precisely this type of questioning and observations that these myths are intended to invoke. 
 

You certainly are seeing clearly and in any kind of gnosis, or enlightenment, or growth, or self awareness, insights, wisdoms or spirituality (the label is immaterial) IMHO is about the questions and that clarity is universal and unifying, not “special.” IMHO or my two cents, 
 

Girl, great questions, you are one of my favorite posters, your fun to read and wise as heck. 

<3 you, @Sherapy xxxxxx

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eight bits
5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

How many of those l0 commandments   contradict the constitution of the US as claimed ? 

Although I'm confident that @Liquid Gardens needs no assisatnce, I took his claim to be present subjunctive, perhaps "7.5" was somewhat tongue in cheek (maybe not). Regardless, what was the law in some jurisdictions within the United States in the past is irrelevant to what would be unconstitutional, present and going forward.

Abortion, artifical birth control, interracial marriage, divorce, homosexual relations, never mind marriage, ... have all been forbiddent somewhere in the USA sometime in the past. Not today. There are also a variety of "dead letter" statutes that remain on the books, despite their being unconstitutional. Some provisions that began for religious reasons (e.g., "blue laws" regualting commerce on Sundays) were in some places repurposed as secular regulations (hours and working conditions labor laws).

I score it as follows (from your "Catholic" list, lol):

Flatly impermissible involvement of states in religious establishment or expression (3);

"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”

"Thought crimes" lacking specific meaning except within a religious framework, and therefore very probably unconstitutionally vague (3):

“Honor thy father and mother.”
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Behavior which is constitutionally protected in some situations, and sanctioned in others (0.5?)

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”  (In a political context, and not under oath or a duty to maintain confidentiality, I can say pretty much say anything I like about anybody holding office or running for one; but there's considerable regulation of what I can say about a private individual minding their own business).

Which leaves 3 which have, in part, an interpretation consistent with secular law, and in part a religious component:

“Thou shalt not kill.”
“Thou shalt not steal.”
Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

For example, your own (or your copypasta's) explanation of the last one includes all sorts of behavior that would almost certainly fall within a constitutionally recognized sphere of personal privacy.

Final score: I get no less than than 6.5. LG says 7.5, you say zip.

I find myself remarkably closer to LG's analysis than to yours.

 

Edited by eight bits
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Piney
10 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

that the darn  democrats  who supported abortion killing  and  open sexuality

I'm a former Democrat who's open sexually.

But I still wuv you Old Mother. :wub:

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