jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #651 Share Posted February 18, 2020 14 hours ago, Mr Walker said: The rich pay enough taxes to support the poor, but not enough to create a disincentive to create wealth Hi Walker Everyone pays taxes not just the rich and every time you buy something there is an included tax so lets not pat the rich on the back for something we all do. 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Thus here it is possible for a family to go from poverty to multimillionaires within a generation through either education or hard /clever work Yes it does happen under unique circumstances but is not the norm as evidenced by statistics 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Poverty (here) is largely a matter of perception with very few unable to be provided with adequate shelter, food, clothing, etc except where the y choose to make this difficult by purchasing new phones tv s etc, or otherwise spend on wants not needs We don't all live in the same system nor do I think that you have a firm grasp in the social issues that I had mentioned originally. You do understand that in today's job market people do have to have smart phones and computers to be able to compete. Your finished working and had a fairly secure type of employment with low risk to personal injury. The service, construction, fabrication sectors are not as secure and peoples lives are affected financially and physically. 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: All medical expenses are basically free and there is a lot of financial support for carers for people with disabilities or old age. That may be where you live but that is not how it is in the whole world I know people that spend over a thousand of dollars each month for medication alone that would be a third of your income so nice as it is for you others are not so fortunate. jmccr8 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderingFool0 Posted February 18, 2020 #652 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said: Agreed, and thus it doesn't then seem that the US was 'founded as a Christian nation'. I would say it seems so, if one excludes all of the abundant writing of a few founding fathers that clearly state that it was not, nor was it ever intended to be. They didn't ever really give it a religious label, but if one were to give a label to the ideas they have expressed, it would be closest to a Deist nation. It is also well known that some of the founding fathers; being big proponents of the enlightenment philosophy, were in fact Deists. Even if we exclude those writings of some of the founding fathers, I would also say, that since they had just gotten out from under English rule; which was an enforced christian nation, and experienced enforced religious observance under colonial rule, I don't see them being in a rush to jump back into a christian nation enforced or otherwise. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted February 18, 2020 #653 Share Posted February 18, 2020 14 hours ago, Mr Walker said: IMO Australia has one of the best balances between capitalism and socialism Eg schooling and medical expenses are either free or very cheap depending on your income The rich pay enough taxes to support the poor, but not enough to create a disincentive to create wealth Thus here it is possible for a family to go from poverty to multimillionaires within a generation through either education or hard /clever work Poverty (here) is largely a matter of perception with very few unable to be provided with adequate shelter, food, clothing, etc except where the y choose to make this difficult by purchasing new phones tv s etc, or otherwise spend on wants not needs I understand it may be very difernt in America Here my wife and i live comfortably on 38000 a year including 12000 spent on our mortgage., All medical expenses are basically free and there is a lot of financial support for carers for people with disabilities or old age. Still my TV is 9 years old, my phone at least 5 ,My computer about 10 and my car 7 years We haven't been on a holiday for 15 years But none of that worries us at all.We are warm safe well fed and occupied every day Books and dvds are free from the state library sytem and magazines and books can be borrowed free online Free papers are available a t coffee shops and libraries It is a bit of a struggle to pay electricity and water despite us having solar power and batteries and large water tanks but we also get subsidies on all forms of govt charges, being aged pensioners Aren’t you and your wife devoted to living on so little as a religious statement, a biblical aversion to materialism? The way you post over the years my impression is you choose to live on the cheap as your purpose. A life of frugality and austerity by choice, correct? I am glad to hear Australia government does have help, especially with caregivers, my goodness. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #654 Share Posted February 18, 2020 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: I disagree Our present attitudes and values evolve from our past experiences Hi Walker Of course you disagree that's why we talk. My point is that we live in the present and are capable of expressing ourselves according to the present social norms. 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: His experience of unjust imprisonment, basically because of racial problems, shaped his attitudes We don't know if it was unjust imprisonment, personally I find it a stretch that he was sentenced to three months for "just" informing and am inclined to think that there is more to the story. Again we don't know what his racial attitude was at the time and as I said to him he came across as a tad racist (something that I am familiar with) and will not discount as a factor in his story. I could cry a sob story about how I was unjustly treated too, there were some cops that didn't like me and would stop me and one time took me in for a breathalyzer then proceeded to harass me about being First Nations and said some pretty abrasive things to manipulate a response out of me. I had stood up once to put my hands in my pockets and sat down again so I wouldn't slap the crap out of that mouth then he said are you going to blow in this thing or would you rather be blowing a fag in the alley, I looked down at my shoes and got charged for refusal. The reason I got treated like that was because I sold pot and understand that because they couldn't get me for that they would work me in another way. Which is why I asked him if he accepts responsibility for his actions I did. 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: The real argument is, is the story true and should he allow it to shape his atitudes .My tentative response to both is yes That is your option 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: I dont have anytime at all for subjective, politically correct, speak In a public medium like this it isn't about what you want if we were hanging out at the firepit having some brews then maybe. 15 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Poverty and disadvantage are not excuses for poor behaviour, although we should be working towards reducing poverty and disdvanathe It's not just their problem and like I said it is calculated and managed jmccr8 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 18, 2020 #655 Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: proceeded to harass me about being First Nations I thought you were Irish. So you're of mixed race descent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #656 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, Will Due said: I thought you were Irish. So you're of mixed race descent? Hi Will No I am Irish and what a lot of people did not seem to understand was that Celtic people were some of the first settlers to move into the west and took wives so their descendants have Celtic features, I did have the same problem with some First Nations people who thought I was trying to be white. jmccr8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 18, 2020 #657 Share Posted February 18, 2020 20 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Will No I am Irish and what a lot of people did not seem to understand was that Celtic people were some of the first settlers to move into the west and took wives so their descendants have Celtic features, I did have the same problem with some First Nations people who thought I was trying to be white. jmccr8 I see. So that's why you're playing both sides of the coin. Kind of like how Elizabeth Warren is Native American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #658 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Will Due said: I see. So that's why you're playing both sides of the coin. Kind of like how Elizabeth Warren is Native American. Hi Will I have dealt with racism from both whites and First Nations people and find it repulsive so I am not sure what you mean by playing both sides of the coin, I see myself and everyone else as a person and accept everyone as such, although bigots and idiots seem to have a problem understanding that, where do you stand? Sometimes I wish they had a flipping the bird emoji in the likes. jmccr8 Edited February 18, 2020 by jmccr8 added context 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted February 18, 2020 #659 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Will I have dealt with racism from both whites and First Nations people and find it repulsive so I am not sure what you mean by playing both sides of the coin, I see myself and everyone else as a person and accept everyone as such, although bigots and idiots seem to have a problem understanding that, where do you stand? jmccr8 Racism is something Native Americans learned from whites. Native American prejudices were tribal and cultural, not racial. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #660 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said: Racism is something Native Americans learned from whites. Native American prejudices were tribal and cultural, not racial. Hi Hammer That is true and regrettable that we should sow such seeds. jmccr8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted February 18, 2020 #661 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Hammer That is true and regrettable that we should sow such seeds. jmccr8 We've come a long way overcoming our past. No other Western nation has a population so diverse, yet living in relative harmony compared it's contemporaries who are more racially and ethnically homogenous. Visit East Europe or Asia and you'll find many examples of what our own past was like. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 18, 2020 #662 Share Posted February 18, 2020 31 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Will I have dealt with racism from both whites and First Nations people and find it repulsive so I am not sure what you mean by playing both sides of the coin, I see myself and everyone else as a person and accept everyone as such, although bigots and idiots seem to have a problem understanding that, where do you stand? Sometimes I wish they had a flipping the bird emoji in the likes. jmccr8 In the past we had racism. That's for sure. Whites were prejudiced towards non-whites in a big way. It was terrible. Today the descendants of those white racists BY AND LARGE are anything but racist. How do you think Obama got elected? Hands down, the average white person today is not racist. Although there are a few exceptions. They're an extreme minority. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #663 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Will Due said: In the past we had racism. That's for sure. Whites were prejudiced towards non-whites in a big way. It was terrible. Today the descendants of those white racists BY AND LARGE are anything but racist. How do you think Obama got elected? Hands down, the average white person today is not racist. Although there are a few exceptions. They're an extreme minority. Do you agree? Hi Will It may not be as pronounced as it once was and where I grew up it was and still is very racist, even where I live now they try to be politically correct about it on the surface so I would say yes it is improving but no it still exists. Are you going to explain your coin comment? jmccr8 Edited February 18, 2020 by jmccr8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 18, 2020 #664 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Will It may not be as pronounced as it once was and where I grew up it was and still is very racist, even where I live now they try to be politically correct about it on the surface so I would say yes it is improving but no it still exists. Racism will always exist. But I agree with you that white racism is suppresed by the individual. Why? Because it's ridiculous to be outward with it. White people, like most non-white people, are much more attuned to being respectful when interacting with those of another race. There's greater understanding now. Besides, those of us our age lived through it when we were kids and lived through that period when the adjustment occured. It was beautiful. But now there's a new type of racism that's developed. Mainly instigated by the lying press for political purposes. A lot of non-whites, especially the young ones, have bought into it and are openly bigoted towards whites. There's a lot of hate from them towards whites and a lot of the older whites are buying into this mindset as well. They play both sides of the coin. Call other whites racists when they know they're anything but that. It's unbelievable hypocrisy. Tell me I misunderstood you and that you're not one of those. 2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Are you going to explain your coin comment? jmccr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 18, 2020 #665 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Will Due said: Racism will always exist. But I agree with you that white racism is suppresed by the individual. Why? Because it's ridiculous to be outward with it. White people, like most non-white people, are much more attuned to being respectful when interacting with those of another race. There's greater understanding now. Besides, those of us our age lived through it when we were kids and lived through that period when the adjustment occured. It was beautiful. But now there's a new type of racism that's developed. Mainly instigated by the lying press for political purposes. A lot of non-whites, especially the young ones, have bought into it and are openly bigoted towards whites. There's a lot of hate from them towards whites and a lot of the older whites are buying into this mindset as well. They play both sides of the coin. Call other whites racists when they know they're anything but that. It's unbelievable hypocrisy. Tell me I misunderstood you and that you're not one of those. Hi Will No I am not racist and try to treat everyone the same but if I do confront someone about their comments or position I generally have good cause to question them on it. jmccr8 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 18, 2020 #666 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Will No I am not racist and try to treat everyone the same but if I do confront someone about their comments or position I generally have good cause to question them on it. jmccr8 Of course you do. So do I. Edited February 18, 2020 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 19, 2020 #667 Share Posted February 19, 2020 On 2/17/2020 at 4:46 PM, Mr Walker said: quote “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.” I wonder what qualifies as a "strange" god? Basically anything other then the Christian God? Why did they use the word "strange"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 19, 2020 #668 Share Posted February 19, 2020 11 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Agreed, and thus it doesn't then seem that the US was 'founded as a Christian nation'. True, it was NOT to be a nation devoted to Christianity, but 95% of the citizens, and of the thinking behind the Constitution, were Christian ideals. Just because Chiristianity was the norm does not mean the Founders of the Cobstitution were bigots that hated other religions. Not founded as a Christian Nation. But founded on Christian values. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted February 19, 2020 #669 Share Posted February 19, 2020 11 hours ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Walker Everyone pays taxes not just the rich and every time you buy something there is an included tax so lets not pat the rich on the back for something we all do. Yes it does happen under unique circumstances but is not the norm as evidenced by statistics We don't all live in the same system nor do I think that you have a firm grasp in the social issues that I had mentioned originally. You do understand that in today's job market people do have to have smart phones and computers to be able to compete. Your finished working and had a fairly secure type of employment with low risk to personal injury. The service, construction, fabrication sectors are not as secure and peoples lives are affected financially and physically. That may be where you live but that is not how it is in the whole world I know people that spend over a thousand of dollars each month for medication alone that would be a third of your income so nice as it is for you others are not so fortunate. jmccr8 None the less In australia and most countries the system is set up so tha t the rich support the poor( (I mean the very poor.Not working people) Eg we have a 10% gods and services tax If i pay 20000 a yera for goods and services ipay 2000 intax but richperon sending 100000 a year would pay 10000 intax S WELLAS RHOER OTHER TAXES tTaxes must be enough to raise revenue without discouraging the genertion of wealth As an example i have a young great niece with 2 infant boys She is a single mum with no other income than govt benefits She rents her own house, pays her own bills, does a good job of budgeting and in two years has put $5000 into term deposits for her kids. She is planning to buy her own house She doesn't waste any money and only buys things needed for well being For her a luxury is having a hairdresser cut her hair, but she is doing well, is happy, and certainly not in poverty I appreciate not everyone lives in Australia and i made that point in my post Ipaid a medicare levy most of my working life that was a couple of percent on my income Everyone does this However that means our health costs are largely covered. It costs me nothing to go to the doctors, or to spend 3 months in a good hospital Prescriptions are about $3.5 0each per month but after 6 months you hit a safety net and the y become free As i said that is because Australia is a good mix of capitalism and social welfare Americas lack of a health safety net is a tragedy and indictment on its governments My phone is about 4 years old. It cost 120 dollars and i get unlimited calls and texts for 30 a month . wifi is free at home through my telstra plan and in many places like businesses libraries and parks My point was you don't need to buy a new $800 phone every year or two, not that you can live without one (you can but it is increasingly difficult) I cant live with out a car due to isolation from services, but mine is now 6 years old and has done about 150000 ks I will keep it until I can no longer drive, or it becomes too expensive to repair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted February 19, 2020 #670 Share Posted February 19, 2020 11 hours ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Walker Of course you disagree that's why we talk. My point is that we live in the present and are capable of expressing ourselves according to the present social norms. We don't know if it was unjust imprisonment, personally I find it a stretch that he was sentenced to three months for "just" informing and am inclined to think that there is more to the story. Again we don't know what his racial attitude was at the time and as I said to him he came across as a tad racist (something that I am familiar with) and will not discount as a factor in his story. I could cry a sob story about how I was unjustly treated too, there were some cops that didn't like me and would stop me and one time took me in for a breathalyzer then proceeded to harass me about being First Nations and said some pretty abrasive things to manipulate a response out of me. I had stood up once to put my hands in my pockets and sat down again so I wouldn't slap the crap out of that mouth then he said are you going to blow in this thing or would you rather be blowing a fag in the alley, I looked down at my shoes and got charged for refusal. The reason I got treated like that was because I sold pot and understand that because they couldn't get me for that they would work me in another way. Which is why I asked him if he accepts responsibility for his actions I did. That is your option In a public medium like this it isn't about what you want if we were hanging out at the firepit having some brews then maybe. It's not just their problem and like I said it is calculated and managed jmccr8 Are you arguing tha t poverty is organised and constructed by govts for their own purposes ? Sorry i just dont buy that. poverty generally comes from an individual's lack of abilities skills energy or motivation A person cant do a lot about physical or mental disabilities but the y can overcome all other individual circumstances by hard work and discipline Plus, poverty is relative Almost every one in australia is richer than many people in less developed countries Ive always been treated with respect politeness and fairness by police although they still did their duty . That might be because i am white, male, and well educated, clean, well dressed, and groomed it might be because i have film star good looks Bu ti suspect it is because of attitude. i am assertive but not aggressive Polite respectful and calm when dealing with them and I listen and respond appropriately in a way designed to keep them happy It helps that i have a deep and abiding respect and admiration of officers of the law in Australia. Ive been waved through traffic stops by police on my appearance alone and cautioned, rather than charged for minor breaches of road rules like crossing a white centre line or doing more than 25 ks past a parked police car because I spoke the right way with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted February 19, 2020 #671 Share Posted February 19, 2020 11 hours ago, Sherapy said: Aren’t you and your wife devoted to living on so little as a religious statement, a biblical aversion to materialism? The way you post over the years my impression is you choose to live on the cheap as your purpose. A life of frugality and austerity by choice, correct? I am glad to hear Australia government does have help, especially with caregivers, my goodness. roflmao ALL these years and you havent got a clue we live as we do, for several reasons. for me the main one is reducing our ecological footprint to a sustainable level so that future generations, and those in poorer countries today, will have a fairer share of the world's bounty Then there is the issue of inequality and justice. If I take too much it is at the expense of another human being For my wife the religious element is a bit higher but for me it is the least reason Ie the more we attach to material things, the harder it is to have spiritual well being ie happiness, contentment, joy etc These come from within, and attachment to material things makes it harder to achieve these states of mind Plus you waste your life working for them instead of enjoying life I recognise this as a psychological principle as much as a religious one Welive comfortably bychoice and giveanything we don't need to those who do but basically we are "a dangerous beast" ie people who have escaped the captivity of materialism and consumerism and don't have to be wage slaves to artificial needs desires and material possessions. If a lot of people were like us the entire economic system would have to be readjusted to have less work less consumer goods and less disposable materialism I maintain the same secular humanist values i was raised with These things are primarily, for me, HUMANIST values, not religious ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted February 19, 2020 #672 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mr Walker said: roflmao ALL these years and you havent got a clue we live as we do, for several reasons. for me the main one is reducing our ecological footprint to a sustainable level so that future generations, and those in poorer countries today, will have a fairer share of the world's bounty Then there is the issue of inequality and justice. If I take too much it is at the expense of another human being For my wife the religious element is a bit higher but for me it is the least reason Ie the more we attach to material things, the harder it is to have spiritual well being ie happiness, contentment, joy etc These come from within, and attachment to material things makes it harder to achieve these states of mind Plus you waste your life working for them instead of enjoying life I recognise this as a psychological principle as much as a religious one Welive comfortably bychoice and giveanything we don't need to those who do but basically we are "a dangerous beast" ie people who have escaped the captivity of materialism and consumerism and don't have to be wage slaves to artificial needs desires and material possessions. If a lot of people were like us the entire economic system would have to be readjusted to have less work less consumer goods and less disposable materialism I maintain the same secular humanist values i was raised with These things are primarily, for me, HUMANIST values, not religious ones Ah gotcha, a humanist statement. It is interesting that you see having more than the basics as an impediment to happiness and joy, a form of slavery.no less. This is a very dark pessimistic view. It seems to me the more money one has have the more one can do. Edited February 19, 2020 by Sherapy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted February 19, 2020 #673 Share Posted February 19, 2020 12 minutes ago, Sherapy said: It seems to me the more money you have the more you can do. 12 minutes ago, Sherapy said: This is a very dark pessimistic view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 19, 2020 #674 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Let's get the party started... Quote ~ 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted February 19, 2020 #675 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Sherapy said: Ah gotcha, a humanist statement. It is interesting that you see having more than the basics as an impediment to happiness and joy, a form of slavery.no less. This is a very dark pessimistic view. It seems to me the more money one has have the more one can do. No it is not. it is joyful and empowering. It means being able to control your whole life and not letting others, or things, control you It means not having to work every day to buy things you want but don't need. It means less stress worry and concern and being able to work at something you love even if it doesnt pay as much yep the more money one has in a capitalist society the more one can do. But then it comes down to what you CHOOSE to do We chose to help others once we had a comfortable existence That made us a lot happier than taking an overseas trip or buying new consumer products Its not for everyone (to the point we take it) and i dont argue that it is But if people were just a little less materialistic the world would be a better place. Ok at least you realise its based on the humanist principles of my parents. it s interesting how much they match religious values, without the belief in god bit in brief quote We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences. longer version quote We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding. We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance. We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves. We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity. We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species. We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest. We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence. We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity. We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences. We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion. We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences. We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos. We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking. We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others. We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality. We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings. https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-principles-of-secular-humanism/ Many many times you must have read me arguing for one or more of these values and principles. Atheists quite correctly argue that we(humans) dont need religious beliefs or values to be good people. That is true, but we do need SOME positive form of beliefs and values Above you have a pretty good summary of mine, and I do my best to live by them. Edited February 19, 2020 by Mr Walker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts