Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus?

739 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Mr Walker
On 2/9/2020 at 11:25 PM, eight bits said:

 

Apart from Mr Walker and his phantom Roman tax records, there's little reason to think anybody ever confused a Gentile with a Jew, Christian or otherwise. The bacon cheeseburgers are a giveaway. There needn't be a practical reason for two groups to hate one another, then or now.

As to Titus and Vespasian, I suspect that you and I are in agreement that war is hell, also then or now.

 

In the beginning :) All christians including christ were a type of liberal/reformed jew

That was how they were seen and perceived by everyone, Including themselves, and roman  authorities 

The y worshipped as jews kept the holy day as the seventh day and followed jewish religious and civil customs, albeit   with a liberal flavour.

Attha t ime the bacon test would NOT have differentiated jewish christian from  jewish non christian 

By the AD70/80s rome had separated christianity from judaism  for the purposes  of taxes 

Paul played a large part in this, by evolving christianity away from  judaism into a new religious form 

This was encouraged by the christians at that time, maybe because taxes on jews became particularly punitive 

After the fiscus l(j)udaicas, christians had a good reason not to pay the tax. After all, many were no longer jewish and the y could save money as roman citizens by not being counted as jews  

quote

The followers of Jesus first took this message to the synagogue communities of Jews in the Eastern part of the Roman Empire. Many Jews did not believe that Jesus was the expected Messiah, but to the surprise of these apostles (messengers), Gentiles (pagans) wanted to join the movement. This unexpected occurrence raised questions of inclusion: should these pagans become Jews first, entailing circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath observance? At a meeting in Jerusalem (ca. 49 CE, The Apostolic Council), it was decided that pagans could join without becoming Jews. However, they had to observe some Jewish principles such as draining blood from meat, sexual morality, and the cessation of all idolatry (Acts 15). By the end of the 1st century, these Gentile-Christians dominated the Christianoi (“the followers of the Christ”).

The decision to persecute Christians most likely began during the reign of Domitian (83-96 CE). A depleted treasury motivated Domitian to take action in two areas: he enforced the collection of the Jewish Temple tax and mandated worship at the Imperial Temples. After the destruction of their Temple, Domitian’s father, Vespasian (69-79 CE), had ordered the Jews to continue paying the Temple tax, now sending it to Rome as war reparations, but apparently, no one enforced this until the reign of Domitian. In seeking out tax evaders among Jews, his officials became aware of another group who worshipped the same god but were not Jews and thus not responsible for the tax.

https://www.ancient.eu/article/1205/early-christianity/

Probably, by then, the bacon test might have been usable, although even then many christians probably kept many jewish customs and religious laws Eg worship on sunday only started officially much later (about 300 years later)  

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat

This Judas fella, given he was "right there', in the inner circle. and yet the direct presence of the great man couldn't over-rule his baser instincts, is strongly suggestive that what he was actually on about, was not really transferable. And if the so called Christians love to hate the chap, rather than regarding him as an unfortunate case, then it did not transfer to them either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
32 minutes ago, Habitat said:

This Judas fella, given he was "right there', in the inner circle. and yet the direct presence of the great man couldn't over-rule his baser instincts, is strongly suggestive that what he was actually on about, was not really transferable. And if the so called Christians love to hate the chap, rather than regarding him as an unfortunate case, then it did not transfer to them either.

 

Transferable?

What, when it comes to a person's sovereign free will you want Jesus to perform a miracle and overthrow their free will?

That's pretty funny Hab. :lol:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
Just now, Will Due said:

 

Transferable?

What, when it comes to a person's sovereign free will you want Jesus to perform a miracle and overthrow their free will?

That's pretty funny Hab. :lol:

 

 

I am saying if he couldn't convert this bloke at point blank range, how is it reasonable to expect people to be convinced by words on a page ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

I am saying if he couldn't convert this bloke at point blank range, how is it reasonable to expect people to be convinced by words on a page ? 

 

Read this Hab (it isn't too long) and get back to me when you're done.

Judas Iscariot

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
Quote

All through his life Judas had cultivated the habit of getting even with those whom he fancied had mistreated him. His sense of values and loyalties was defective.

 

What do you do with those such as Judas? Not even God can save them. Miracles do them no good.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
11 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Read this Hab (it isn't too long) and get back to me when you're done.

Judas Iscariot

 

 

Hmmmm……"The worlds have found it difficult to forgive Judas" 

In that case, the message of forgiveness has not transferred well to the "worlds" either ! Seriously, demonizing people is a common human trait, and a common literary device for that very reason. It reflects a desire to externalise the impulses we all have, that we are not wise to admit having, even perhaps to ourselves. Judas can't hurt anyone today, and as indicated, was not the reason why JC met an untimely end, though if you believe the storytelling tradition of the bible it was a timely end, needed to create the background for a resurrection. Judas provides the villain to hate.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

Hmmmm……"The worlds have found it difficult to forgive Judas" 

In that case, the message of forgiveness has not transferred well to the "worlds" either ! Seriously, demonizing people is a common human trait, and a common literary device for that very reason. It reflects a desire to externalise the impulses we all have, that we are not wise to admit having, even perhaps to ourselves. Judas can't hurt anyone today, and as indicated, was not the reason why JC met an untimely end, though if you believe the storytelling tradition of the bible it was a timely end, needed to create the background for a resurrection. Judas provides the villain to hate.

 

You misunderstand Hab. The reason the worlds find it difficult to forgive Judas isn't because of what he did to Jesus. It's because of what he did to himself.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

You misunderstand Hab. The reason the worlds find it difficult to forgive Judas isn't because of what he did to Jesus. It's because of what he did to himself.

 

 

Don't be silly, he is only a matter of discussion because he allegedly betrayed JC, unless you think the "worlds" find it difficult to forgive anonymous desperate people who throw themselves off bridges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
28 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

What do you do with those such as Judas? Not even God can save them. Miracles do them no good.

 

 

And what dependable evidence is there about this chaps alleged character flaws ? And who are we or anyone to judge ? You know what the man said Will, "judge not lest thee be judged" ! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Don't be silly, he is only a matter of discussion because he allegedly betrayed JC, unless you think the "worlds" find it difficult to forgive anonymous desperate people who throw themselves off bridges.

 

Jesus would have been crucified regardless of what Judas did. He was a non-factor in the demise of Jesus. What's so unforgivable about what Judas did......did to himself is to have squandered the opportunity to forever be associated with the success, like the other eleven, of seeing it through. Being associated with Jesus as a member of his inner circle FOREVER.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

"judge not lest thee be judged" ! 

 

Sometimes being judged for judging, turns out to be for the better. :D

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Jesus would have been crucified regardless of what Judas did. He was a non-factor in the demise of Jesus. What's so unforgivable about what Judas did......did to himself is to have squandered the opportunity to forever be associated with the success, like the other eleven, of seeing it through. Being associated with Jesus as a member of his inner circle FOREVER.

 

 

Allowing that your premise in correct, that becomes a tragedy for old Judas, and yet people want to condemn him, for missing out on the "jackpot" ? It isn't enough punishment that he misses out on that ? It is a bit like condemning someone for making a bad choice that lands them in jail, isn't the jail enough punishment ? And especially if the "victim" of the crime suffered no detriment he was not going to suffer anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Sometimes being judged for judging, turns out to be for the better. :D

 

 

Too late for Judas, no help to him that people still want to condemn him....perhaps they more want to "help" themselves !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Too late for Judas, no help to him that people still want to condemn him....perhaps they more want to "help" themselves !

 

Lol. 

God helps those who helps themselves.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
Quote

As Caiaphas was engaged in making his report to the Sanhedrin regarding the trial and condemnation of Jesus, Judas appeared before them to claim his reward for the part he had played in his Master’s arrest and sentence of death.

186:1.2

All of these Jews loathed Judas; they looked upon the betrayer with only feelings of utter contempt. Throughout the trial of Jesus before Caiaphas and during his appearance before Pilate, Judas was pricked in his conscience about his traitorous conduct. And he was also beginning to become somewhat disillusioned regarding the reward he was to receive as payment for his services as Jesus’ betrayer. He did not like the coolness and aloofness of the Jewish authorities; nevertheless, he expected to be liberally rewarded for his cowardly conduct. He anticipated being called before the full meeting of the Sanhedrin and there hearing himself eulogized while they conferred upon him suitable honors in token of the great service which he flattered himself he had rendered his nation. Imagine, therefore, the great surprise of this egotistic traitor when a servant of the high priest, tapping him on the shoulder, called him just outside the hall and said: “Judas, I have been appointed to pay you for the betrayal of Jesus. Here is your reward.” And thus speaking, the servant of Caiaphas handed Judas a bag containing thirty pieces of silver—the current price of a good, healthy slave.

1,998

Judas was stunned, dumfounded. He rushed back to enter the hall but was debarred by the doorkeeper. He wanted to appeal to the Sanhedrin, but they would not admit him. Judas could not believe that these rulers of the Jews would allow him to betray his friends and his Master and then offer him as a reward thirty pieces of silver. He was humiliated, disillusioned, and utterly crushed. He walked away from the temple, as it were, in a trance. He automatically dropped the money bag in his deep pocket, that same pocket wherein he had so long carried the bag containing the apostolic funds. And he wandered out through the city after the crowds who were on their way to witness the crucifixions.

186:1.4

From a distance Judas saw them raise the cross piece with Jesus nailed thereon, and upon sight of this he rushed back to the temple and, forcing his way past the doorkeeper, found himself standing in the presence of the Sanhedrin, which was still in session. The betrayer was well-nigh breathless and highly distraught, but he managed to stammer out these words: “I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood. You have insulted me. You have offered me as a reward for my service, money—the price of a slave. I repent that I have done this; here is your money. I want to escape the guilt of this deed.”

186:1.5

When the rulers of the Jews heard Judas, they scoffed at him. One of them sitting near where Judas stood, motioned that he should leave the hall and said: “Your Master has already been put to death by the Romans, and as for your guilt, what is that to us? See you to that—and begone!”

186:1.6

As Judas left the Sanhedrin chamber, he removed the thirty pieces of silver from the bag and threw them broadcast over the temple floor. When the betrayer left the temple, he was almost beside himself. Judas was now passing through the experience of the realization of the true nature of sin. All the glamor, fascination, and intoxication of wrongdoing had vanished. Now the evildoer stood alone and face to face with the judgment verdict of his disillusioned and disappointed soul. Sin was bewitching and adventurous in the committing, but now must the harvest of the naked and unromantic facts be faced.

186:1.7

This onetime ambassador of the kingdom of heaven on earth now walked through the streets of Jerusalem, forsaken and alone. His despair was desperate and well-nigh absolute. On he journeyed through the city and outside the walls, on down into the terrible solitude of the valley of Hinnom, where he climbed up the steep rocks and, taking the girdle of his cloak, fastened one end to a small tree, tied the other about his neck, and cast himself over the precipice. Ere he was dead, the knot which his nervous hands had tied gave way, and the betrayer’s body was dashed to pieces as it fell on the jagged rocks below.

 

The End of Judas Iscariot

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
Just now, Will Due said:

 

Lol. 

God helps those who helps themselves.

 

 

You are wandering off the straight and narrow, Will ! Next you will be saying "Devil take the hindmost" ! I have heard quite pious people say the Judas thing is a pile of BS, and it really does pander to the lowest common denominator. If old JC knew for sure that Judas would betray him, 100%, then he must have had no faith that people can "see the light", at the eleventh hour, but believed they are locked in by fate. Determinism !

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And everyone felt better for it. What a neat ending !

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

You are wandering off the straight and narrow, Will ! Next you will be saying "Devil take the hindmost" ! I have heard quite pious people say the Judas thing is a pile of BS, and it really does pander to the lowest common denominator. If old JC knew for sure that Judas would betray him, 100%, then he must have had no faith that people can "see the light", at the eleventh hour, but believed they are locked in by fate. Determinism !

 

Oh that most dangerous of all possessions. That damn sovereign free will.

It can be used to destroy yourself or it can be used to help yourself.

Pick one. :D

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

And everyone felt better for it. What a neat ending !

 

Well, everyone got an award. :lol:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat

One wonders how many people have avoided just punishment in this world, because someone did not want to be another Judas, a "give up", a "dobber", to finger a law-breaker, because of the example made of Judas as the eternal betrayer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Oh that most dangerous of all possessions. That damn sovereign free will.

It can be used to destroy yourself or it can be used to help yourself.

Pick one. :D

 

 

Except some people want to make it "double whammy" if they pick the wrong way. Who would consciously do that, make the "wrong" choice ? They must have thought it "right". It comes across as a tax or punishment for being stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
Quote

Judas was now passing through the experience of the realization of the true nature of sin. All the glamor, fascination, and intoxication of wrongdoing had vanished. Now the evildoer stood alone and face to face with the judgment verdict of his disillusioned and disappointed soul. Sin was bewitching and adventurous in the committing, but now must the harvest of the naked and unromantic facts be faced.

 

When sin - the deliberate and knowing of doing something wrong has reached its judgement (self-realization) it's usually a lot more than just another bad day. :lol:

 

 

Edited by Will Due

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Due
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Except some people want to make it "double whammy" if they pick the wrong way. Who would consciously do that, make the "wrong" choice ? They must have thought it "right". It comes across as a tax or punishment for being stupid.

 

Well like they said about Judas: 

 

Quote

He was a good thinker but not always a truly honest thinker. Judas did not really understand himself; he was not really sincere in dealing with himself.

 

Can't be honest and sincere with yourself? Or refuse to be? 

Pay the tax and take the punishment. 

:P

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

When the deliberate and knowing of doing something wrong has reached its judgement (self-realization) it's usually a lot more than just another bad day. :lol:

 

 

It does come across as Schadenfreude on steroids, Will. We cannot be glorying in the downfall of others, it does not sit comfortably with the doctrine of forgiveness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.