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GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus?

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Habitat
Just now, Will Due said:

Judas did not really understand himself

And JC couldn't get him over the line, in doing that ? Despite being in the thick of it.

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Will Due
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It does come across as Schadenfreude on steroids, Will. We cannot be glorying in the downfall of others, it does not sit comfortably with the doctrine of forgiveness.

 

Cheer up. :lol:

No one is revelling in the misfortune of others. But without a sense of humor, a person might do something really stupid and go off and hang themselves.

It's never so bad to just admit your wrong and suck it up.

 

 

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Will Due
4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

And JC couldn't get him over the line, in doing that ? Despite being in the thick of it.

 

You don't have kids do you. If you did, you wouldn't ask such a question. :P

 

 

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Cheer up. :lol:

No one is revelling in the misfortune of others. But without a sense of humor, a person might do something really stupid and go off and hang themselves.

It's never so bad to just admit your wrong and suck it up.

 

 

The mere fact he went off and suicided (if that is what actually happened) would evoke pity rather than satisfaction, or a judgement of "he got his just desserts" in the mind of a genuine person. I really think Christianity as popularly taught, offers a wonderful opportunity to stay lodged in immaturity, but the "real" message of it, is all about psychological maturity.

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Will Due
Quote

Judas was an only son of unwise parents. When very young, he was pampered and petted; he was a spoiled child.

 

Sometimes it's too late. When a thing or person gets spoiled. It's just a part of nature. You do what you can.

Nobody's gonna eat a rotten banana. Yuck.

But unlike rotten fruit, a person has the opportunity to rejuvenate themselves. Many spoiled ones have done it. Many are doing it right now. :D And many more will do it in the future. 

 

 

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Habitat
3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

You don't have kids do you. If you did, you wouldn't ask such a question. :P

 

 

I don't know that being a parent is analogous to being as great an influence and "teacher" as JC is said to have been. We are talking about someone with the stamp of God. Why did this bloke Judas fall through the cracks ? It is saying that some people are "lost causes" ? Boy, that opens the floodgates for people to behave badly. Anyone I don't like can be disrespected because they are just hopeless cases.

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

I don't know that being a parent is analogous to being as great an influence and "teacher" as JC is said to have been. We are talking about someone with the stamp of God. Why did this bloke Judas fall through the cracks ? It is saying that some people are "lost causes" ? Boy, that opens the floodgates for people to behave badly. Anyone I don't like can be disrespected because they are just hopeless cases.

 

Love your enemies. That's the solution.

LOVE

 

 

Judas didn't "fall through the cracks".

Like many do, they squeeze themselves through them. Sometimes with great effort and determination.

Which is pretty unforgivable. 

 

 

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

Which is pretty unforgivable. 

That's the "Bad Egg" Theory. And whilst some say Christianity goes beyond that kind of thinking. In practice, it seems not to. People get punished for anti-social behaviour with jail, as a practical measure to smooth the running of society, but the "eternal damnation" doctrine seems purely retributive, and have no practical use, other than to allow angry people to revel in the supposed suffering of others, who are no threat to anyone. And that is an immature response that should not be pandered to.

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Habitat
15 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Love your enemies.

 

15 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Which is pretty unforgivable. 

How can those two co-exist, in a coherent philosophy ?

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

 

How can those two co-exist, in a coherent philosophy ?

 

It's just nuts and bolts Hab. Your going overboard with the Christian thing bro.

Unforgivable. If one offs themselves, IT'S OVER. There's nothing there anymore to forgive. Hence, it's unforgivable. ;)

That's all. No one can undo it.

It can't be forgiven for that reason. The nut doesn't have a bolt to be a part of anymore.

It's sad.

 

 

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Habitat

How many times have you heard someone say, "I hope he/she/they burns in hell" ? Many ! Perish the thought some would imagine themselves to be Christians, but they appear to be acknowledging, or hoping for, a "beyond" !

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

It's just nuts and bolts Hab. Your going overboard with the Christian thing bro.

Unforgivable. If one offs themselves, IT'S OVER. There's nothing there anymore to forgive. Hence, it's unforgivable. ;)

That's all. No one can undo it.

It can't be forgiven for that reason. The nut doesn't have a bolt to be a part of anymore.

It's sad.

 

 

Oh dear, I think you are off the straight and narrow !

See the source image

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

It's just nuts and bolts Hab.

It is just self-serving, that's what it is. What I see in most "bad" people, is basically a mix of stupidity and poor impulse control. Judas wasn't too smart, was he ?

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Will Due
4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It is just self-serving, that's what it is. What I see in most "bad" people, is basically a mix of stupidity and poor impulse control. Judas wasn't too smart, was he ?

 

That's about the size of it. What do ya do.

 

 

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Habitat
7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

That's about the size of it. What do ya do.

 

 

What society does is lock people up who don't play the game, and not worry too much about the reasons they do what they do. In many cases, people who are overtly "religious", are basically engaged in self-serving nonsense where cheap platitudes rule, and "loving your enemy" really not part of the equation.

Edited by Habitat
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DieChecker
24 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

It's just nuts and bolts Hab. Your going overboard with the Christian thing bro.

Unforgivable. If one offs themselves, IT'S OVER. There's nothing there anymore to forgive. Hence, it's unforgivable. ;)

That's all. No one can undo it.

It can't be forgiven for that reason. The nut doesn't have a bolt to be a part of anymore.

It's sad.

I think suicide is unforgivable in ancient Judaism, because a sacrifice had to be made to purge the sin.

In Catholism, suicide is a Mortal Sin, and even people who live through it (AFAIK) are damned for it.

In Evangelical Protestant Christianity, suicide isnt any more a sin then murdering someone, or premarital sex. You are already forgiven, and just need to believe you will be. You need to forgive yourself, in other words. This can theoretically occur even after death, IMHO. 

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Golden Duck

Who were Cephas and the twelve?

Did the Jackson 5 ever have six members?

Edited by Golden Duck
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DieChecker
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

Sometimes it's too late. When a thing or person gets spoiled. It's just a part of nature. You do what you can.

Nobody's gonna eat a rotten banana. Yuck.

But unlike rotten fruit, a person has the opportunity to rejuvenate themselves. Many spoiled ones have done it. Many are doing it right now. :D And many more will do it in the future. 

Actually the "bad" bananas go into making banana bread. :lol:

I'd agree, while a person lives, it's not too late to turn things around. It is a person's personal belief they are beyond redemption that makes them so.

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Habitat
58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

It is a person's personal belief they are beyond redemption that makes them so.

Really ? In society's eyes there is no redemption for people who have committed the most serious crimes, and whether they think they would not reoffend doesn't enter into the calculation. Their past deeds makes that choice for them. Yet we have this Christian idea of redemption for the worst, that somehow does not apply to Judas ? "Unforgiveable", says Will. So what is this business of loving such people, and what does it entail, if they can expect no forgiveness ? I think I like the common sense of the law, a lot more than the crazy logic of Christian "love", as espoused by many.

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Will Due
18 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Really ? In society's eyes there is no redemption for people who have committed the most serious crimes, and whether they think they would not reoffend doesn't enter into the calculation. Their past deeds makes that choice for them. Yet we have this Christian idea of redemption for the worst, that somehow does not apply to Judas ? "Unforgiveable", says Will. So what is this business of loving such people, and what does it entail, if they can expect no forgiveness ? I think I like the common sense of the law, a lot more than the crazy logic of Christian "love", as espoused by many.

 

Hab, you go too far.

 

Quote

The worlds have found it difficult to forgive Judas, and his name has become eschewed throughout a far-flung universe.

 

They didn't say that the worlds don't forgive Judas, they said the worlds "found it difficult" to forgive him.

Which implies that he is. :D

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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DieChecker
23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Really ? In society's eyes there is no redemption for people who have committed the most serious crimes, and whether they think they would not reoffend doesn't enter into the calculation. Their past deeds makes that choice for them.

Luckily, Christian redemption comes from God and not from the community.

Quote

Yet we have this Christian idea of redemption for the worst, that somehow does not apply to Judas ? 

It applies. Judas is going to get to stand before Jesus and plead his case, just like you and I will. If he is repentant, I dont see why he cant be forgiven.

Quote

"Unforgiveable", says Will. So what is this business of loving such people, and what does it entail, if they can expect no forgiveness ? I think I like the common sense of the law, a lot more than the crazy logic of Christian "love", as espoused by many.

Loving people doesn't mean being an idiot, and it doesnt mean letting them hurt you. We are all to love each other, but you can love someone and punish them. You can love someone and not forget what they did. Loving someone doesnt mean enabling.

Thst said though, I would agree a lot if Christians are taught to be angry, judgemental, even hateful... when such is not what they should be.

Edit: Also my Christian view may differ from Will's. I believe he follows the Urantia Book.

Edited by DieChecker
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Habitat
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

It applies. Judas is going to get to stand before Jesus and plead his case, just like you and I will. If he is repentant, I dont see why he cant be forgiven.

Jesus is in the tin for not being able to get the best out of Judas, as I see it. ;) Forgiveness involves understanding why people do what they do, more than anything.

Edited by Habitat

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jypsijemini

 

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DieChecker
2 hours ago, Habitat said:

Jesus is in the tin for not being able to get the best out of Judas, as I see it. ;) Forgiveness involves understanding why people do what they do, more than anything.

Like faith, and love, true forgiveness occurs regardless of reasons, or evidence.

To understand a person perhaps will encourage forgiveness, but doing so regardless is a more godly thing to do. 

If you mean a person should know themself to better forgive themself, then that's probably true. Its critical to understand why you did something in order to truly forgive oneself.

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jypsijemini

www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/judastxt.pdf

Worth a read if you can make any sense of it. There's a lot of the ancient script that's missing but just the fact that it exists and can be dated around the same era as the Gospels absolutely floors me.

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