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GoldenWolf

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus?

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jypsijemini
4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

It applies. Judas is going to get to stand before Jesus and plead his case, just like you and I will. If he is repentant, I dont see why he cant be forgiven.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not die but have eternal life."

Yet we're still going to have to stand before The Judge and plead our case at the End?

Well that blows.

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Coil
On 2/7/2020 at 2:30 AM, GoldenWolf said:

How can Judas have betrayed Jesus if Jesus was a sacrifice for mankind?

The tension of the hostile forces in that place was so great that they somehow would have killed Christ if not through Judah so through other people. Since these forces impede and try to kill spiritual or brilliant people around the world who enlighten humanity. That is why Christ is the sacrifice and not because God wanted to kill him intentionally with the hands of the devil in order to make a sacrifice of him and accordingly give him the halo of a martyr.

Christianity is too focused on the tragedy of the martyr because the mission of Christ remained incomplete, therefore, the second coming of Christ is needed and then the symbol will not be crucified Christ but transfigured humanity.

After suicide, Judas fell to a very difficult level of hell for the betrayal of Christ, where no man has ever gone and his torment was extremely great. For how many centuries he was unknown there but now he prays at the astral level every day but is completely alone and can only be seen from afar the glow of his prayers. When the Antichrist incarnates on earth, Judah will incarnate too to form a movement against the Antichrist and die at his hands by martyrdom, thereby redeeming his betrayal.
 
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jmccr8
13 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

What do you do with those such as Judas? Not even God can save them. Miracles do them no good.

 

 

Hi Will

So god can’t forgive a rat but murderers are okay huh.:huh:

jmccr8

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Will Due
27 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

So god can’t forgive a rat but murderers are okay huh.:huh:

jmccr8

 

Judas commited suicide. When a person turns their back on existence what can anyone do to change that? God can't even change that. They don't exist anymore so there's nobody there to forgive. They're gone.

 

 

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Will Due

 

Let's not forget what suicide is:

 

Quote

the final act in the drama of fleeing from the realities of mortal existence—suicide

 

In my opinion, this act can occur before a person experiences mortal death, if it becomes their final decision.

Then fleeing from the realities of mortal existence, is a form of living suicide. Offing oneself while remaining alive.

But all of it can be turned around with a counter decision that will rejuvenate oneself. Which is a mighty and beautiful thing indeed. :D

 

 

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Sherapy
18 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Sometimes it's too late. When a thing or person gets spoiled. It's just a part of nature. You do what you can.

Nobody's gonna eat a rotten banana. Yuck.

But unlike rotten fruit, a person has the opportunity to rejuvenate themselves. Many spoiled ones have done it. Many are doing it right now. :D And many more will do it in the future. 

 

 

Geez, Will suicide is an emotional trauma for all involved. 
It saddens me to read a post so lacking in empathy and compassion.

Some suffer with depression which is biological and sometimes medications that are for depression have a side effect of suicide. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In the beginning :) All christians including christ were a type of liberal/reformed jew

That was how they were seen and perceived by everyone, Including themselves, and roman  authorities 

The y worshipped as jews kept the holy day as the seventh day and followed jewish religious and civil customs, albeit   with a liberal flavour.

Attha t ime the bacon test would NOT have differentiated jewish christian from  jewish non christian 

By the AD70/80s rome had separated christianity from judaism  for the purposes  of taxes 

Paul played a large part in this, by evolving christianity away from  judaism into a new religious form 

This was encouraged by the christians at that time, maybe because taxes on jews became particularly punitive 

After the fiscus l(j)udaicas, christians had a good reason not to pay the tax. After all, many were no longer jewish and the y could save money as roman citizens by not being counted as jews  

quote

The followers of Jesus first took this message to the synagogue communities of Jews in the Eastern part of the Roman Empire. Many Jews did not believe that Jesus was the expected Messiah, but to the surprise of these apostles (messengers), Gentiles (pagans) wanted to join the movement. This unexpected occurrence raised questions of inclusion: should these pagans become Jews first, entailing circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath observance? At a meeting in Jerusalem (ca. 49 CE, The Apostolic Council), it was decided that pagans could join without becoming Jews. However, they had to observe some Jewish principles such as draining blood from meat, sexual morality, and the cessation of all idolatry (Acts 15). By the end of the 1st century, these Gentile-Christians dominated the Christianoi (“the followers of the Christ”).

The decision to persecute Christians most likely began during the reign of Domitian (83-96 CE). A depleted treasury motivated Domitian to take action in two areas: he enforced the collection of the Jewish Temple tax and mandated worship at the Imperial Temples. After the destruction of their Temple, Domitian’s father, Vespasian (69-79 CE), had ordered the Jews to continue paying the Temple tax, now sending it to Rome as war reparations, but apparently, no one enforced this until the reign of Domitian. In seeking out tax evaders among Jews, his officials became aware of another group who worshipped the same god but were not Jews and thus not responsible for the tax.

https://www.ancient.eu/article/1205/early-christianity/

Probably, by then, the bacon test might have been usable, although even then many christians probably kept many jewish customs and religious laws Eg worship on sunday only started officially much later (about 300 years later)  

Well you certainly are invested in your tax plot. 
 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish

Holy Hell!!! There is an entire page I can't read due to my ignore list. It is a miracle!!!

As for the whole Jesus-Judas things, it's a plot device.

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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Holy Hell!!! There is an entire page I can't read due to my ignore list. It is a miracle!!!

As for the whole Jesus-Judas things, it's a plot device.

For me, Eight bits and Hammerclaw are the ones to read. 
 

Thanks guys very interesting informative posts.




 


 

 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Well you certainly are invested in your tax plot. 
 

 

 

I am always invested in history and truth, :) 

This is not widely published on google but you can find a number of references to it, if you are interested 

Thus, to say it is false, or something made up, (Ie a plot) is simply wrong 

You whinge if i dont source my points, then you whinge when I do :) 

Others try to deny it because  it is one of the few records of christian separation from   judaism over the course of the first century.

By the 80s, Roman taxes and records differentiated between christians and jews.  Before that christians were seen by the romans as a jewish sect (and indeed for the first part of the first century that is precisely what christianity was.  Christians refused to pay the temple tax introduced in the AD 70s because they no longer considered themselves jewish (and because who wants to pay taxes if you don't have to?)   They  also had some arguments about other  parts of roman law  where worship was connected to loyalty and citizenship.  eg they had only one god and thus could not accept the emperor as a god, which was expected of all roman citizens. This brought them to the attention of the roman authorities and into increasing conflict with them  

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

For me, Eight bits and Hammerclaw are the ones to read. 
 

Thanks guys very interesting informative posts.




 


 

 

Of course they are. They don't make you  feel uncomfortable with their ideas,  or challenge your complacency  :) 

There is nothing wrong with their views, but you like then because they fit your own  

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DieChecker
15 hours ago, jypsijemini said:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not die but have eternal life."

Yet we're still going to have to stand before The Judge and plead our case at the End?

Well that blows.

Well, it does say eternal life, not eternal bliss/Heaven.... :innocent:

Forever torment in a Fiery nowhere is still eternal life technically. :devil:

You know why it "blows"? Because people today believe they should never be sorry for anything. Saying your sorry for anything is not a popular idea these days.

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Of course they are. They don't make you  feel uncomfortable with their ideas,  or challenge your complacency  :) 

There is nothing wrong with their views, but you like then because they fit your own   I just find them both educational and well researched. 

 

While neither one of them brags about their backgrounds, I do know them and appreciate that they even post here. 
 

I will not apologize for seeking to read quality and knowing the difference, and there is no reason to attack me. 
 

It is not about you, therefore, no need to pick fights. 
 

 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I am always invested in history and truth, :) 

This is not widely published on google but you can find a number of references to it, if you are interested 

Thus, to say it is false, or something made up, (Ie a plot) is simply wrong 

You whinge if i dont source my points, then you whinge when I do :) 

Others try to deny it because  it is one of the few records of christian separation from   judaism over the course of the first century.

By the 80s, Roman taxes and records differentiated between christians and jews.  Before that christians were seen by the romans as a jewish sect (and indeed for the first part of the first century that is precisely what christianity was.  Christians refused to pay the temple tax introduced in the AD 70s because they no longer considered themselves jewish (and because who wants to pay taxes if you don't have to?)   They  also had some arguments about other  parts of roman law  where worship was connected to loyalty and citizenship.  eg they had only one god and thus could not accept the emperor as a god, which was expected of all roman citizens. This brought them to the attention of the roman authorities and into increasing conflict with them  

I conclude with Eightbits expertise.
 

Thank you for your opinion though.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Of course they are. They don't make you  feel uncomfortable with their ideas,  or challenge your complacency  :) 

There is nothing wrong with their views, but you like then because they fit your own  

She likes us because we're gentlemen who know how to treat a lady, us having much more experience than with just one.:D

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Sherapy
24 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

She likes us because we're gentlemen who know how to treat a lady, us having much more experience than with just one.:D

We have an ideal here in the west, a man never brags that is the domain of pimply faced boys. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Habitat
2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

We gave a saying here in the west, a true gentleman never needs to brag. 

how ironic, you were replying to a "gentleman" bragging about extensive experience with women. What do you call a woman who has had very extensive "experience" with various men ?

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docyabut2

Jhn 21:20

Unchecked Copy BoxJhn 21:20 - Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

 

Unchecked Copy BoxJhn 21:21 - Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

 

Unchecked Copy BoxJhn 21:22 - Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 

Unchecked Copy BoxJhn 21:23 - Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

 

 

 
 
Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
 
I think they were referring to Judas 

  this was after Jesus came out of tomb and met with his disciples

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Hammerclaw
26 minutes ago, Habitat said:

how ironic, you were replying to a "gentleman" bragging about extensive experience with women. What do you call a woman who has had very extensive "experience" with various men ?

Fair dinkum?

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jmccr8
11 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Judas commited suicide. When a person turns their back on existence what can anyone do to change that? God can't even change that. They don't exist anymore so there's nobody there to forgive. They're gone.

 

 

Hi Will

Judas was alive until he died and obviously he had remorse for his actions because he took his life. Now if he expressed that remorse and repented to god before he died then he should have been forgiven because that is how the system works and if god did not forgive him and he committed suicide because he had been rejected the whole premise of forgiveness is a lie. Now neither you or I were there but you keep hanging the same man every time you speak because you haven't forgiven him and you do not know the whole story anyway.

jmccr8

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Habitat

Bible stories are just that, stories, the best that can be said, is that they exemplify psychological truths, not actual events to any degree of accuracy. I think we can easily see that the member of a gang that goes rogue, is a staple of fiction. And they usually are the worse for breaking ranks. These are like little morality tales for those tempted to follow suit, and go their own wilful way.

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Habitat
17 hours ago, Coil said:

The tension of the hostile forces in that place was so great that they somehow would have killed Christ if not through Judah so through other people. Since these forces impede and try to kill spiritual or brilliant people around the world who enlighten humanity. That is why Christ is the sacrifice and not because God wanted to kill him intentionally with the hands of the devil in order to make a sacrifice of him and accordingly give him the halo of a martyr.

Christianity is too focused on the tragedy of the martyr because the mission of Christ remained incomplete, therefore, the second coming of Christ is needed and then the symbol will not be crucified Christ but transfigured humanity.

After suicide, Judas fell to a very difficult level of hell for the betrayal of Christ, where no man has ever gone and his torment was extremely great. For how many centuries he was unknown there but now he prays at the astral level every day but is completely alone and can only be seen from afar the glow of his prayers. When the Antichrist incarnates on earth, Judah will incarnate too to form a movement against the Antichrist and die at his hands by martyrdom, thereby redeeming his betrayal.
 

And what do you rely upon to provide such details ? Not imagination ?

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Habitat
17 hours ago, Coil said:

After suicide, Judas fell to a very difficult level of hell for the betrayal of Christ, where no man has ever gone and his torment was extremely great. For how many centuries he was unknown there but now he prays at the astral level every day but is completely alone and can only be seen from afar the glow of his prayers. When the Antichrist incarnates on earth, Judah will incarnate too to form a movement against the Antichrist and die at his hands by martyrdom, thereby redeeming his betrayal.

What is the poor fella eating down there, all this time ? bubble and squeak ?

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Habitat said:

how ironic, you were replying to a "gentleman" bragging about extensive experience with women. What do you call a woman who has had very extensive "experience" with various men ?

What would be the problem either way? 

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

What would be the problem either way? 

There's no problem so far as I'm concerned, but I was under the impression that "bragging" was being condemned.

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