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bee

5G roll out in the UK

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Setton
1 hour ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

isn't that a good place to put transmitters? Up mountains anyway. 

I was picturing a mountain in the middle of nowhere rather than one near people but fair point. 

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Montmorency the Dog

 

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

The low latency is useful for driverless vehicle.  I haven't heard that small cell technology will benefit remote areas.

are you envisaging driverless cars being remotely controlled from an outside source? 

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Golden Duck
48 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

 

are you envisaging driverless cars being remotely controlled from an outside source? 

Part of the driverless car concept is the ability to communicate with other driverless cars to avoid congestion.

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Emma_Acid
On 2/21/2020 at 1:37 PM, WanderingFool0 said:

That is the point they were making I think. One can not opt out of this technology, so the implementation of it will force everyone to be exposed whether they want to be or not. And even if people fearing 5g and other electromagnetic radiation are wrong, why are they not free to not be exposed to it, like other man made substances. I think the war on tobacco is good analogy where many places smoking is being banned in public because people feel they have a right not to be exposed to noxious man made chemicals of others. Since one can not opt out of breathing the smoke, than smoking itself is banned.

Because "people" aren't experts, and giving them the option to "opt out" of something that a) does them no harm and b) would basically put a stop to telecommunications progress is a ridiculous, pandering notion.

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Emma_Acid
7 hours ago, bee said:

and if humans - their pets - etc ARE harmed or killed by 5G... there will be no recourse ...

5G has already been rolled out in the UK, and has been available for almost a year. Where are all these dead people with their fried pets?

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Setton
17 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

5G has already been rolled out in the UK, and has been available for almost a year. Where are all these dead people with their fried pets?

Perhaps there is something in the idea that it fries your brain then. 

Certain people's anyway.

And it is almost certainly harmful to the intelligence of key pollinating insects... 

Edited by Setton

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bee

 

On 2/22/2020 at 3:55 PM, Emma_Acid said:

Because "people" aren't experts, and giving them the option to "opt out" of something that a) does them no harm and b) would basically put a stop to telecommunications progress is a ridiculous, pandering notion.

 

it has to be said... that you are a dream consumer for the telecom industry... 

 

On 2/22/2020 at 3:58 PM, Emma_Acid said:

5G has already been rolled out in the UK, and has been available for almost a year. Where are all these dead people with their fried pets?


as you must be aware there is only a very limited roll out with trials and Test Beds ongoing at various
places around the country...

https://5g.co.uk/news/5g-uk-trial-testing-ground/4302/

as for dead people and their fried pets... give it time... serious health issues and warnings about environmental
concerns are stacking up as the telecom industry merrily forges on with the latest Cash Cow...

they will not want to be reigned in and government officials who don't understand the implications
will focus on economic aspects .....

even the BBC asked - Will superfast 5G mobile be worth it? (at the end of 2018...)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-46200728/will-superfast-5g-mobile-be-worth-it

 

 

 

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bee

Another aspect of all this is the question... how easily can the 5G network be hacked into and 
what might this mean for criminal activity?... 

The Internet of Things envisages billions and trillions of machines all linked up by
the 5G microwave network... this could be a bonanza for hackers and criminals....

and if our lives became totally dependent on the 5G network... which would become the reality
if the promoters and planners have their way... this would obviously be a security risk on a national
level as well....

the subject of hacking comes in around one minute into video below..

 

Ang Cui: Connecting devices with 5G creates new attack service for hackers

 

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skookum
On 2/22/2020 at 9:16 AM, bee said:

 

 

random link about a Driverless Car Trial in the UK (London)... article written Oct 2019

And the name of the Taxi Car....................... Five AI........

(as in 5G and Artificial Intelligence I suppose.... picture on link...

 

Mirror : Driverless Car Trial in London

quote...

Driverless cars are carrying passengers on British roads for the first time in trials making motoring history.

The pioneering experiment is taking place on a 12-mile circuit in south London, but the exact route is being kept secret by the government-backed consortium behind the project.

Trials began this week in Bromley and Croydon using converted Ford Mondeos to see if the technology can operate safely on Britain’s busy roads.

 

I was just having a quick look about this - because I was thinking that to do this with the Driverless Car
they must have had a 5G set up activated in those areas....

I haven't got time to look into it further right now but ...

https://en.everybodywiki.com/FiveAI

Interesting post as I was recenty at a road transport conference.

The UK Government is becoming obsessed with driverless technology.  The trials are indeed Government backed and the Mondeos are retrofitted with hundreds of thousands of pounds of driverless kit. These are not off the production line cars and still require a supervising driver to be behindthe the wheel.

I come from the Private hire industry and companies outside of the Uber, Lyft app based giants see driverless technology of little use to us anytime soon.

Reasons highlighted

1.  No insurance company at present or is likely to cover an unsupervised vehicle.  See reasons below for examples of some of the reasons

2.  Although driving is 80% of the job there are too many tasks a driver caries out beyond driving.  Current private hire companies need drivers to meet customers and assist in airports, stations and hotels.  Drivers are required to load vehicles safely and ensure it is not oveloaded or loaded in a way that can cause injury.  Much work carried out is for local authority social care of minors and ederly, drivers are required to be escorts for the young and elderly.  Divers also must insure the correct amount of passengers are only allowed in the vehicle, 60% of complaints to local authorities are when drivers refuse to allow 5+ passengers to travel in a car only legally licensed for 4 passengers.  Drivers are legally oblidged to give assistance to disabled passengers.  

3. No Sat Nav is even remotey accurate enough to ensure a vehicle will arrive at a pickup or destination accurately.

4. The kind of technology required to drive the car unaided in a commercial situation cost is likely to be very high on vehicles.

 

For road hauliers similar problems are expected as drivers load/unload and also carry out various other tasks.  Just look how lorries often have to park and imagne programing a computer to do that.

 

However the Government is likely to hit the motorist very hard over the next decade. The controversial road pricing scheme is to be brought back to plug the 30 billion in loss revenue they will face by banning petrol and diesel engines in the next 15 years. This target is frankly ridiculous as there seems to be no infrastucture plan and many of the technologies for vehicles larger than a 4 seat car does not exist yet.

 The Government fears the power of the road haulage and farmers as the proved in the 2000s they can bring the country to its knees.  Farmers will likely be kept under control by subsidies as well a the haulage giants. However the smaller hauliers and other road users could be a problem.  

I personally think the Government is barking up the wrong tree.  Taxi and haulage now survives by providing good service.  We cannot compete price wise with the likes of Uber etc.  However we are growing at 20% per annum as people and businesses require the extra service.

Thankfully I will be nearing the end of my working life when the changes really will kick in.

 

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jbondo
On 2/22/2020 at 1:47 AM, bee said:

 

The problem is that people are actually addicted to their '''smart''' phones (that make them stupid ^_^ )
so now they are being shunted onto 5G although 4G is fine for them, like it is for you... 

Thanks for the Infowar link... 

Suffice it to say, my phone usage is so sparse, it's almost a crime that I pay for it. I use it for research and it sits on my desk at work all day whether I'm in my office or not. My wife on the other hand, is very addicted. She has her phone in her hand pretty much every second. I've been preaching about the dangers of cell phone addiction for a long time now. Especially when people are being manipulated thru them. I don't get this "selfie" thing either. Obviously, I come here now and then, but even at that, it's very occasional. A week or two and then I'm gone for a couple months (generally speaking)

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bee
13 hours ago, Eldorado said:

Some news:

UK's 5G network well within safety limits, Ofcom tests find

BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51613580

 

I think this is a stretch to declare that the UK's 5G network is well within safety limits after
a sample test on some base stations before the ''''network'''' is any where near established...
and I don't think the millimeter wave phase has even begun...?

 

 https://semiengineering.com/5g-heats-up-base-stations/

Two-phase commitment


Despite the moniker, 5G is more of a statement of direction than a single technology. The sub-6GHz version, which is what is being rolled out today, is more like 4.5G. Signal attenuation is modest, and these devices behave much like cell phones today. But when millimeter wave technology begins rolling out—current projections are 2021 or 2022—everything changes significantly. This slice of the spectrum is so sensitive that it can be blocked by clothing, skin, windows, and sometimes even fog.

The result is that many more cells are needed to keep devices connected, and base-stations and handsets will be constantly searching for ways to stay connected. As anyone with a cell phone knows, searching for signals drains the battery faster. But it also keeps the logic circuits active, and that generates heat. In base stations, which are tightly packed with racks of equipment, thermal buildup can cause all sorts of problems. It can have an impact on signal integrity, and it can reduce the lifespan of all components.

“When you have a frequency with a range that’s not as far as a cell tower, you have to add much more density to the network to get the same amount of connectivity,” Michael Foegelle, director of technology development at ETS-Lindgren. “When you design these, you have to assume they’ll be outside, and you have to design in a way to dissipate all that. Since you’re outside and don’t want to risk putting in active cooling, you might have to go fix a lot, that means a lot of ambient cooling,”

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bee
20 hours ago, skookum said:

 

{snip}

However the Government is likely to hit the motorist very hard over the next decade. The controversial road pricing scheme is to be brought back to plug the 30 billion in loss revenue they will face by banning petrol and diesel engines in the next 15 years. This target is frankly ridiculous as there seems to be no infrastucture plan and many of the technologies for vehicles larger than a 4 seat car does not exist yet.

 The Government fears the power of the road haulage and farmers as the proved in the 2000s they can bring the country to its knees.  Farmers will likely be kept under control by subsidies as well a the haulage giants. However the smaller hauliers and other road users could be a problem.  

I personally think the Government is barking up the wrong tree.  Taxi and haulage now survives by providing good service.  We cannot compete price wise with the likes of Uber etc.  However we are growing at 20% per annum as people and businesses require the extra service.

Thankfully I will be nearing the end of my working life when the changes really will kick in.

 

the government will have to tread very carefully for the simple reason that people love having a car and
the freedom of movement that that brings - and will not welcome having that freedom taken away...

and I don't think  driverless vehicles will be accepted or liked (at least not for the next two or three generations ....?)

and as you say... the billions of revenue raised through petrol and diesel will have to be plugged up somewhere..

and that's before the loss of jobs starts to hit and becomes an issue... 

Any comprehensive Driverless Car system would need a fully operational 5G + Artificial Intelligence involvement
- would be totally dependent on 5G and AI... and although they are trying to rush it all out and keep under the
radar before people make too many objections (IMO)..... we are a long way from that at the moment...

thank goodness...

I believe the public need to get educated and aware of what all this could be leading to... 

 

 

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bee
13 hours ago, jbondo said:

Suffice it to say, my phone usage is so sparse, it's almost a crime that I pay for it. I use it for research and it sits on my desk at work all day whether I'm in my office or not. My wife on the other hand, is very addicted. She has her phone in her hand pretty much every second. I've been preaching about the dangers of cell phone addiction for a long time now. Especially when people are being manipulated thru them. I don't get this "selfie" thing either. Obviously, I come here now and then, but even at that, it's very occasional. A week or two and then I'm gone for a couple months (generally speaking)


You are helping to Save the Planet..... :yes:

I wonder how all the addicted Smart Phone users in outfits like Extinction Rebellion will deal with
realizing they are major polluters...^_^ ( if they ever accept it... )

they love telling everyone else how they should live but will they be prepared to give up their 
Smart Phones... or campaign to persuade others to.... to Save the Planet... !!!!! 
They will also, logically, have to oppose 5G... I wonder when they will start their anti 5G protests... ??? 

:D

addicts tend to be very resistant to giving up their addiction...

random link... (fastcompany)

Smart Phones are killing the planet faster than anyone expected

Researchers are sounding the alarm after an analysis showed that buying a new smartphone consumes as much energy as using an existing phone for an entire decade.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smartphones represent a fast-growing segment of ICT, but the overall largest culprit with regards to CO2 emissions belongs to servers and data centers themselves, which will represent 45% of ICT emissions by 2020. That’s because every Google search, every Facebook refresh, and every dumb Tweet we post requires a computer somewhere to calculate it all in the cloud.

 

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Setton
3 hours ago, bee said:

 

I think this is a stretch to declare that the UK's 5G network is well within safety limits after
a sample test on some base stations before the ''''network'''' is any where near established...
and I don't think the millimeter wave phase has even begun...?

Yeah, what would Ofcom know? Just look on YouTube! 

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Montmorency the Dog
On 2/25/2020 at 10:18 AM, bee said:

t buying a new smartphone consumes as much energy as using an existing phone for an entire decade.

no it doesn't. The most energy it consumes is the card reading machine thingy. You might also get a plastic carrier bag, to be sure, but some retailers now use neat little paper bags with string handles. 

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Montmorency the Dog
On 2/25/2020 at 10:18 AM, bee said:

but the overall largest culprit with regards to CO2 emissions belongs to servers and data centers themselves, which will represent 45% of ICT emissions by 2020. That’s because every Google search, every Facebook refresh, and every dumb Tweet we post requires a computer somewhere to calculate it all in the cloud.

doesn't exactly the same apply to using whatever device one uses to consult any website at all, including, for example, Twitter, facebook and Youtube, all resources that are often used by people keen to prove whatever conspiracy theory they wish to promote? 

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Setton
3 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

doesn't exactly the same apply to using whatever device one uses to consult any website at all, including, for example, Twitter, facebook and Youtube, all resources that are often used by people keen to prove whatever conspiracy theory they wish to promote? 

Just think how many trees @beehas killed with all that YouTube 'research'...

:cry:

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bee
8 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

no it doesn't. The most energy it consumes is the card reading machine thingy. You might also get a plastic carrier bag, to be sure, but some retailers now use neat little paper bags with string handles. 

 

this is what they were referring to on the link - (the energy and resources to create new '''Smart''' Phones..)

Quote

Smartphones are particularly insidious for a few reasons. With a two-year average life cycle, they’re more or less disposable. The problem is that building a new smartphone–and specifically, mining the rare materials inside them–represents 85% to 95% of the device’s total CO2 emissions for two years. That means buying one new phone takes as much energy as recharging and operating a smartphone for an entire decade.

there's more about that angle on the link.. like...

Quote

In any case, keeping a smartphone for even three years instead of two can make a considerable impact to your own carbon footprint, simply because no one has to mine the rare materials for a phone you already own. It’s a humbling environmental takeaway, especially if you own Samsung or Apple stock. Much like buying a used gasoline-fueled car is actually better for the environment than purchasing a new Prius or Tesla, keeping your old phone is greener than upgrading to any new one.

 

 

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bee
8 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

doesn't exactly the same apply to using whatever device one uses to consult any website at all, including, for example, Twitter, facebook and Youtube, all resources that are often used by people keen to prove whatever conspiracy theory they wish to promote? 

 

I suppose so but I would think the addictive nature of the '''Smart''' Phone when people carry them
around all the time and are always messing with them - would encourage higher consumption ...

???

 

 

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Grey Area
1 hour ago, bee said:

 

I suppose so but I would think the addictive nature of the '''Smart''' Phone when people carry them
around all the time and are always messing with them - would encourage higher consumption ...

???

 

 

It’s interesting that you use the environmental cost of creating smart phones as an argument against 5g technology and for the same purpose seem to advocate the continued use of petrol and diesel powered cars.

Personally I think connectivity is the future, a constantly switched on and plugged in world is a slow but totally unstoppable steam roller.

In my opinion 5G will be fleeting, I’m more interested in seeing what happens with the constellation satellites that are currently being launched.

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bee
11 hours ago, Grey Area said:

It’s interesting that you use the environmental cost of creating smart phones as an argument against 5g technology and for the same purpose seem to advocate the continued use of petrol and diesel powered cars.

actually it was more an argument against the Extinction Rebellion crowd - and their double standards..

  

11 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Personally I think connectivity is the future, a constantly switched on and plugged in world is a slow but totally unstoppable steam roller.

In my opinion 5G will be fleeting, I’m more interested in seeing what happens with the constellation satellites that are currently being launched.

 

IMO, we are on the brink of taking it all too far and moving away from the '''rules''' set down by
nature over millions of years.. the rules that we can't move too far away from without atrophy
setting in .... like all empires the New Technological Empire will have a shelf life...

It's logical to me that too many microwaves introduced artificially into the environment will upset 
the balance of nature too much and we won't get away with it...

so maybe 5G will be fleeting for those reasons...?

 

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bee
12 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Personally I think connectivity is the future, a constantly switched on and plugged in world is a slow but totally unstoppable steam roller.

In my opinion 5G will be fleeting, I’m more interested in seeing what happens with the constellation satellites that are currently being launched.

 

I wonder , as well.. if there's going to be a point where the big companies investing vast amounts of money
into setting it all up find they don't get a good return on the investment... if the phones are too expensive
and people don't really want them... ie 4G is enough ... so much money has to be spent up front it's a gamble...

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/guide-to-5g/

Quote

How much does 5G cost? 

Quite frankly, it's still very expensive and certainly not MoneySaving, largely as you'll need one of the latest phones mentioned above. Plus most of the latest 5G capable models are much more expensive than their 4G counterparts.

 

Quote

Is 5G worth it?

Unless you're really keen to be the first to try it – and are desperate for lightning-quick speeds – then for most it is extremely expensive, plus your choice of phones and network are currently very limited.

However early adopters often do pay more, so we would expect to see 5G prices drop in time as more networks offer it and availability across the UK increases. In fact, it's likely to eventually become the norm.

 

although they expect prices to drop in time... it's going to cost a hell of a lot to set up and if people don't
take it up...?..... and think the cost to themselves and the environment is too high...?... they might want to
just stick with 4G...

the pic on that article says it all really... encouraging people to spend huge chunks their lives staring
into a screen... 

5G comes to the UK – what is it and is it any good? MSE

 

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Grey Area
1 hour ago, bee said:

I wonder , as well.. if there's going to be a point where the big companies investing vast amounts of money
into setting it all up find they don't get a good return on the investment... if the phones are too expensive
and people don't really want them... ie 4G is enough ... so much money has to be spent up front it's a gamble...

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/guide-to-5g/

I honestly don't think it will be a problem.  The biggest hurdle for the network or networks that will manage 5G will not be around take up but around coverage and security.  Interestingly, we all seem to approach this from a personal viewpoint, I don't know the figures and got bored after 5 minutes of googling so could be wrong, but I suspect it is business and government contracts that are worth far more than any private contract and would likely be able to carry any losses made through the private contract market.

What modern business is not going to want to improve communication speeds and bandwidth?  

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Setton
4 hours ago, bee said:

 

I wonder , as well.. if there's going to be a point where the big companies investing vast amounts of money
into setting it all up find they don't get a good return on the investment... if the phones are too expensive
and people don't really want them... ie 4G is enough ... so much money has to be spent up front it's a gamble...

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/guide-to-5g/

 

 

although they expect prices to drop in time... it's going to cost a hell of a lot to set up and if people don't
take it up...?..... and think the cost to themselves and the environment is too high...?... they might want to
just stick with 4G...

the pic on that article says it all really... encouraging people to spend huge chunks their lives staring
into a screen... 

5G comes to the UK – what is it and is it any good? MSE

 

Yes, yes, people said exactly the same about the printing press. 

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