Giant dams enclosing North Sea proposed

[Eldorado 55,735]

"A Dutch government scientist has proposed building two mammoth dams to completely enclose the North Sea and protect an estimated 25 million Europeans from the consequences of rising sea levels as a result of global heating.

"Sjoerd Groeskamp, an oceanographer at the Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research, said a 475km dam between north Scotland and west Norway and another 160km one between west France and south-west England was “a possible solution”."

Full monty at the UK Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/12/giant-dams-could-protect-millions-from-rising-north-sea

In Dutch & English (scroll down) at the Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research:

https://www.nioz.nl/en/news/een-dam-dwars-door-de-noordzee-waarschuwscenario-voor-klimaatverandering

At Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_European_Enclosure_Dam

 

[Doug1029 7,625]

Just because we can do this doesn't mean we should.  What this will do to marine ecosystems hasn't even been studied.  And if spent the money on cleaning up the air, we might be able to stop sea level rise.

Doug

[Eldorado 55,735]

25 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Just because we can do this doesn't mean we should.  What this will do to marine ecosystems hasn't even been studied.  And if spent the money on cleaning up the air, we might be able to stop sea level rise.

Doug

"As of 2020, the scheme is largely a thought experiment intended to demonstrate the extreme cost of engineered solutions to the effects of climate change. The scheme's authors describe it as "more of a warning than a solution." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_European_Enclosure_Dam

[Habitat 8,568]

Dumbest "solution" ever heard of.

[Buzz_Light_Year 4,037]

4 hours ago, Habitat said:

Dumbest "solution" ever heard of.

Yeah but someone somewhere is saying "Here hold my beer"

[RoofGardener 17,285]

So its more Global Warming^TM scaremongering ? 

[Doug1029 7,625]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

So its more Global Warming^TM scaremongering ? 

More like an idea to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet.

Doug

 

[Essan 7,521]

Now why didn't they think of that 10,000 years ago?    Before Doggerland  was inundated ....

.

 

[jbondo 271]

2 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

More like an idea to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet.

Doug

 

I did a lot of research and was firmly on the side of GW/CC until I saw Dr Moore speak and read some interesting stuff on how the data is either wrong or manipulated. I've since looked into the other side of the argument more aggressively and now I'm no longer a true believer. Frankly, we don't know what's going to happen. In the 70s, they were warning us about the coming of the next ice age. It's unfortunate, but this has turned into nothing but a political tool.

I saw this ad from Bloomberg and he was saying how he stopped all these pipelines from being built. I had to laugh because for each pipeline that doesn't exist, you have hundreds and thousands of trucks and rail cars hauling oil thousands of miles each day. Once a pipeline is built, there is very little in the way of pollution as apposed to those trucks spewing nox into the air.

[Doug1029 7,625]

I work with Oklahoma and the southern Great Plains.  This part of the Great Plains (Oklahoma, Kansas, southern Nebraska and northern Texas) is fast disappearing.  It is changing from Tallgrass prairie and Crosstimbers woodland to cedar.  Besides cedar, there are 20 new species of plants moving into Oklahoma.  We are seeing a change in plant community types happening under our noses.  Why?  Because Oklahoma gets between four and nine inches more precipitation than it did 40 years ago.  In the Land of the Dust Bowl, we have not had a major drought in 60 years.  THAT is climate change happening while we watch.

Ranchers and farmers complain that cedar is taking over their farms, that it drinks up water that would otherwise be available for their cattle.  They get out saws and fire and bulldozers and battle the invading trees.  And they win battles - but are losing the war.  There is absolutely no doubt that climate change is real, is here now and is getting worse.

Doug

[Rolci 310]

Yes. Because weather patterns are know to remain unchanged forever. Once dry, forever dry. And new species appearing and old ones disappearing are hitherto unheard of. It must be huminz.

[Habitat 8,568]

There was a proposal at one time to dam the Mediterranean, pump the water out, and create a lot of new real estate. That might have been taken more seriously than this. One can only wonder how much that scheme would have raised sea levels, but it would not have been negligible.

[pbarosso 464]

so the thing about climate change is that its always a changing. the other thing is WHO cares? humans will adapt, and so what if millions and millions of people are displaced. thats how stuff works. the strong survive. remember THAT science?

 

[Bavarian Raven 1,598]

8 hours ago, Essan said:

Now why didn't they think of that 10,000 years ago?    Before Doggerland  was inundated ....

.

 

But think of the archeological benefits?

[Torviking 101]

Good luck with that.

[Doug1029 7,625]

3 hours ago, Habitat said:

There was a proposal at one time to dam the Mediterranean, pump the water out, and create a lot of new real estate. That might have been taken more seriously than this. One can only wonder how much that scheme would have raised sea levels, but it would not have been negligible.

That actually occurred a few million years ago.  It was called the Messinian Salinity Crisis.  Judging from salt, gypsum and other dessicants, the bottom of the Mediterranean Basin must have resembled hell.  That would not have brought much in the way of real estate profits, especially since you'd have to bring in potable water by pipeline.  There is also a fault line running through the Straits of Gibraltar that could bring the whole thing to a very sudden end.

Doug

[Doug1029 7,625]

2 hours ago, pbarosso said:

so the thing about climate change is that its always a changing. the other thing is WHO cares? humans will adapt, and so what if millions and millions of people are displaced. thats how stuff works. the strong survive. remember THAT science?

 

It's the barely adequate who survive.  If one is just barely good enough, he lives.

Who cares?  There are a lot of Oklahoma farmers and ranchers who see eastern red-cedar competing with grass their cows need to eat and drinking up water they need for their crops.  They care.  They're going to lose the war on eastern red-cedar, but they care.

There are homeowners already leaving Staten Island and the Ninth Ward,  They care.  They can't afford to continue the battle against the sea, but they still care about their homes, their families.

You'll care.  Every time you pay $10 more for a steak than you did last year.  Every time you can't get a king crab dinner because fishermen in the Bering Sea couldn't catch bait fish because the warm(er) water prevented spawning.  Every time your tax money gets spent on fighting California wildfires rather than on maintaining your highways.  You'll care, but you won't have a clue that it's climate change causing it all.

Remember THAT.

Doug

[Doug1029 7,625]

3 hours ago, Rolci said:

Yes. Because weather patterns are know to remain unchanged forever. Once dry, forever dry. And new species appearing and old ones disappearing are hitherto unheard of. It must be huminz.

?????

[pbarosso 464]

1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

It's the barely adequate who survive.  If one is just barely good enough, he lives.

Who cares?  There are a lot of Oklahoma farmers and ranchers who see eastern red-cedar competing with grass their cows need to eat and drinking up water they need for their crops.  They care.  They're going to lose the war on eastern red-cedar, but they care.

There are homeowners already leaving Staten Island and the Ninth Ward,  They care.  They can't afford to continue the battle against the sea, but they still care about their homes, their families.

You'll care.  Every time you pay $10 more for a steak than you did last year.  Every time you can't get a king crab dinner because fishermen in the Bering Sea couldn't catch bait fish because the warm(er) water prevented spawning.  Every time your tax money gets spent on fighting California wildfires rather than on maintaining your highways.  You'll care, but you won't have a clue that it's climate change causing it all.

Remember THAT.

Doug

for one, i dont eat expensive. its a waste anyway. taco bell is m idea of a good time. climate change is just a good excuse to take our money and you know it. 

about the cedar, if you rely on excuses then sure the cedar will win. but humans can eradicate them if they want to. cheaply too. there are just far too many people on this earth with too many politicians farming them for their tax money. in the old days snake ointment salesmen stole our money, now its the snake oil politicians and climate alarmists.

i dont doubt the climate is changing. it changed in the roman days too...it does that. but throwing money at it is NOT THE ANSWER. it is just a issue being used to control the people and corral them into the democrat/leftist parties via saul alinsky-ish methods. you, supporting their agenda are just being what Stalin called a "useful idiot". 

[Doug1029 7,625]

9 hours ago, pbarosso said:

for one, i dont eat expensive. its a waste anyway. taco bell is m idea of a good time. climate change is just a good excuse to take our money and you know it. 

about the cedar, if you rely on excuses then sure the cedar will win. but humans can eradicate them if they want to. cheaply too. there are just far too many people on this earth with too many politicians farming them for their tax money. in the old days snake ointment salesmen stole our money, now its the snake oil politicians and climate alarmists.

i dont doubt the climate is changing. it changed in the roman days too...it does that. but throwing money at it is NOT THE ANSWER. it is just a issue being used to control the people and corral them into the democrat/leftist parties via saul alinsky-ish methods. you, supporting their agenda are just being what Stalin called a "useful idiot". 

Taco Bell uses beef in its tacos.  The price gradually goes up.  You'll care.  Increasing rainfall in the midwest floods out cornfields.  You'll care.

One can start a battle against any given stand of cedar and destroy it.  But that doesn't get rid of seed stocks already present in the soil.  It doesn't get rid of the cedar on your neighbor's property and those are more than adequate to restock your land.  Controlling cedar in a greenhouse world is a never-ending battle.  If you quit fighting, you lose the war.

The climate is now about 1.7C warmer than it was in 1828.  In Oklahoma it is about 2F warmer than it was in 1900.  That's warmer than it would have been without CO2 pollution.  Proving the increase is a homework problem for second-year statistics students.

Who said anything about throwing money at it?  Converting to clean energy will SAVE money as wind and probably perovskites are cheaper than coal or oil and are running just a smidgen cheaper than natural gas.  And energy conservation saves money by simply not using the fuel in the first place.  Insulate your house.  Weather strip around doors and windows.  Install thermopane windows.  Converting to clean energy is all about technological development.  Research and profits will see to most of the change.  And you'll get to share in those profits through reduced energy bills.

IF we decide to lower CO2 in the atmosphere artificially, THAT will cost money.  But we're still at least a decade from any such effort.  One way or another, CO2 will have to be scrubbed from the air and sequestered where it can't cause harm.  We haven't figured out how to do that at a profit yet, but there are some promising technologies being investigated.  Among them, turning COi2 into fuel so it can be recycled.

Why don't you try reading up on climate change, its causes and ways to ameliorate it.  Then come back and lets have a real discussion.

Doug

 

[pbarosso 464]

12 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

Taco Bell uses beef in its tacos.  The price gradually goes up.  You'll care.  Increasing rainfall in the midwest floods out cornfields.  You'll care.

One can start a battle against any given stand of cedar and destroy it.  But that doesn't get rid of seed stocks already present in the soil.  It doesn't get rid of the cedar on your neighbor's property and those are more than adequate to restock your land.  Controlling cedar in a greenhouse world is a never-ending battle.  If you quit fighting, you lose the war.

The climate is now about 1.7C warmer than it was in 1828.  In Oklahoma it is about 2F warmer than it was in 1900.  That's warmer than it would have been without CO2 pollution.  Proving the increase is a homework problem for second-year statistics students.

Who said anything about throwing money at it?  Converting to clean energy will SAVE money as wind and probably perovskites are cheaper than coal or oil and are running just a smidgen cheaper than natural gas.  And energy conservation saves money by simply not using the fuel in the first place.  Insulate your house.  Weather strip around doors and windows.  Install thermopane windows.  Converting to clean energy is all about technological development.  Research and profits will see to most of the change.  And you'll get to share in those profits through reduced energy bills.

IF we decide to lower CO2 in the atmosphere artificially, THAT will cost money.  But we're still at least a decade from any such effort.  One way or another, CO2 will have to be scrubbed from the air and sequestered where it can't cause harm.  We haven't figured out how to do that at a profit yet, but there are some promising technologies being investigated.  Among them, turning COi2 into fuel so it can be recycled.

Why don't you try reading up on climate change, its causes and ways to ameliorate it.  Then come back and lets have a real discussion.

Doug

 

the climate is changing and WE CAN DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO PREVENT IT. there is more ice core evidence that we are heading into an ice age than anything else in the world, you can actually google the data: glacial maximums always follow a precipitous spike in temperatures. the last ice age happened when the continents were in the same location they are in now, so no weird ocean currents contributed to the glacial maximum events. but in any event the real thing is WE JUST DONT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN worrying about it is a waste of time.

 

actually i have read up about it, you surmise too much. and, i still dont care. humans will find a way. they always do. everything youve mentioned ive read about. plant more trees, scrub it out of the air, convert it back into fuel, etc... sure it will lead to a strain on resources and then wars (probably) i still dont care! in my lifetime beef in tacos will not raise to the point i care about. i think you care about it TOO much. too many people do. it becomes a political focus, and thats a problem. suddenly if i dont care about climate change or DENY it, im a bad person and i should be chastised. or the idea that we need to have politicians lecturing us on carbon emissions, how much water we use,  how many cows fart methane, etc. then, we need those politicians in office to control what we do in the name of the climate. which brings us closer to a more totalitarian state. see where its headed. you might be one of those that thinks we should be forced to be re-educated or thrown in jail for thinking climate change is NO BIG DEAL. well, there are more important issues:

when i am dictator of this country i can solve the cedar problem. employ those on welfare and the homeless to wander around digging it up, poisoning it, whatever. im sure the scientists can figure out something. we cannot prevent climate change but we can adapt. 

but presonally i would love to see the cities wiped out. they are full of stinking problems. and i would love to retire in montana or alaska and watch the world burn.

[Doug1029 7,625]

2 hours ago, pbarosso said:

the climate is changing and WE CAN DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO PREVENT IT.

Wrong.  We can start by reducing CO2 pollution of the atmosphere.  Follow that up with removing CO2 from the atmosphere.  In the US, coal prices are in free fall.  Utilities are switching to wind, solar and gas.  That will phase out coal, except for smelting and some specialty uses.  Imagine that - the US phases out coal while Trump is still president.

2 hours ago, pbarosso said:

there is more ice core evidence that we are heading into an ice age than anything else in the world, you can actually google the data: glacial maximums always follow a precipitous spike in temperatures. the last ice age happened when the continents were in the same location they are in now, so no weird ocean currents contributed to the glacial maximum events. but in any event the real thing is WE JUST DONT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN worrying about it is a waste of time.

Glacial cycles are the result of the Milankovitch Cycles.  BUT:  we can stop them.  We are warming the planet without even trying.  There will never be another ice age as long as humans are in charge of the climate.

It's getting late.  I'll continue tomorrow.

Doug

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Doug1029

[Doug1029 7,625]

18 hours ago, pbarosso said:

actually i have read up about it, you surmise too much. and, i still dont care. humans will find a way. they always do. everything youve mentioned ive read about. plant more trees, scrub it out of the air, convert it back into fuel, etc... sure it will lead to a strain on resources and then wars (probably) i still dont care! in my lifetime beef in tacos will not raise to the point i care about. i think you care about it TOO much. too many people do. it becomes a political focus, and thats a problem. suddenly if i dont care about climate change or DENY it, im a bad person and i should be chastised. or the idea that we need to have politicians lecturing us on carbon emissions, how much water we use,  how many cows fart methane, etc. then, we need those politicians in office to control what we do in the name of the climate. which brings us closer to a more totalitarian state. see where its headed. you might be one of those that thinks we should be forced to be re-educated or thrown in jail for thinking climate change is NO BIG DEAL. well, there are more important issues:

I expect we will adapt - in the short run.  In the long run we may not survive.

Whether or not you are a bad person is beside the point.  Most measures needed to combat climate change need to be taken at the societal level.  One person converting to renewable energy makes almost no difference.  But 300 million people converting to green energy can make a dent in pollution.

No matter what political persuasion you have, it is not likely that you will enjoy anarchy.  That would represent the ultimate in freedom.  You have to provide all your own electrical, water, roads, sewer and food services.  You have to provide your own police and courts ("One sword alone shall they rights defend; one harp alone shall praise thee").  All your children are b******* because there is nobody to perform weddings.  If somebody kills a member of your family, you kill him yourself, because there is nobody else to do it for you.  It is a permanent writ of fire and sword.  That is total freedom.

So we have banded together and given up some of our rights for our own security and convenience.  You have already done that.  The question you must answer is:  how much more do I want to give up for my own security and that of my family?  Climate change is a clear and present danger, an existing threat.  Do you want to join with your neighbors to do something about it?  Or are you going to go it alone?

"RE-education" is a fraud.  A little ordinary education would go a long way.  More classes in civics; better training in math, science, technology and engineering.  And yes, more music, art and dance.  That will accomplish way more than any collectivised "re-education" program.

What one person thinks is not a big issue.  It's what the majority think that counts.  Climate change action requires the work of large numbers of people.  If we have large numbers of people working on it, a few shirkers are no problem.  But if we have few people working on it and a great many shirkers, then we have a problem.  This is a decision that must be taken as a group.  We will all live or die by that decision - no matter what side of it we were on.

Doug

[fred_mc 476]

Fascinating idea to bring Doggerland to the surface again but not realistic unfortunately, way too expensive.

[Aardvark-DK 280]

Those scientists should stop smoking weed....