Girls file Lawsuit against transgenders

[zep73]

8 hours ago, Big Jim said:

Then let them compete as women in purely mental contests, like the chess club or debate team.  No matter how much they try to alter themselves through surgery or hormones their years as a male have given them a bone structure and muscle mass that natural women will never have, making physical competition unfair.

Or let them compete among themselves. They can train among the guys to keep in shape.

[zep73]

6 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The WHO have made a serious error, in that they have allowed "political correctness" and social policy to interfere with their clinical role. They are wrong. 

That's your opinion. I think they're professional enough to distinguish.

[preacherman76]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

This is uneducated nonsense. As I said in a previous post, they made their decision based on scientific research. If you don't want to believe that, then I suppose you can just continue with your unhelpful, uneducated, prejudiced posts and I guess we'll see you in an anti-vax thread one of these days.

What research? From what I gather the research says over 90% of kids who are confused about their gender grow out of it. In most cases there is no scientific evidence that says there are any biological signs a man is actually a women, or vice verse. It is all in their head. That's a mental disorder. Not bashing anyone for their choices, but to invoke this in the name of science is just dishonest.

In fact it gets outright insane. There are gender professors who teach that there is no biological difference between sexes. That is the side you are cheering on.   

[ExpandMyMind]

17 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

What research? From what I gather the research says over 90% of kids who are confused about their gender grow out of it. In most cases there is no scientific evidence that says there are any biological signs a man is actually a women, or vice verse. It is all in their head. That's a mental disorder. Not bashing anyone for their choices, but to invoke this in the name of science is just dishonest.

In fact it gets outright insane. There are gender professors who teach that there is no biological difference between sexes. That is the side you are cheering on.   

Seriously, just go to the Wiki page for transgender and you'll see. Most of the stuff in the US saying that there's no biological difference has been funded by Republican and Christian groups.

I'm not going to bother posting links to studies and the like, because I do so every time a post like this comes up and either no one reads them or just dismisses the results out of hand. You can research if you want. If you don't, then I honestly don't care what you believe.

In 30 years this won't even be an issue. The people arguing that it's unnatural or a mental disorder will be relegated to idiot-status, just like the homophobes of yesteryear.

[Big Jim]

5 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

I fear it is possible, to my enduring shame, I might have male ancestors.  I share the collective guilt of all male criminals, murderers and rapists throughout all time, and accept my part in failing to prevent the oppression my kind have used against non-straight, non-white non-men.  (Or any combination of the above.  You don't have to be a black lesbian to be a victim, but it helps.)

Red Green couldn't have said it any better.  

[+OverSword]

11 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

Wow you really don't know about genetics do you? Thousands of babies are born around the world with ambiguous genitalia AND/OR chromosomal differences including having XXY combinations. Even nature doesnt fit into your narrow definitions. 

Yes. Thousands out of billions. Like .01%. And most trans people are not of that type born with mixed genitalia. This is not a discussion about these poor souls, this thread is about the Bruce Jenner type who think they’re brain is in the wrong body and who should not be competing in athletics against actual females. 

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

No, they "caved" to scientific research. 

You don’t know many TG’s, do you. I live in place where they are at least 5% of the population and two I have known for decades one of which was in my band which is a family like intimacy. This was never a thing in their lives until it became a media phenomenon and a brand new way for nobody to ever understand them and to be against them. In other words the type of people whose life is nothing but difficult problems and drama beyond their control and usually because everyone is always against them. Trans genderism was the perfect fit for these two guys to feed their drama to ever higher levels.  I love this guy like a brother and I could tell when he told me about his brave new choice that he was a bit disappointed that I embraced his decision. It’s a mental condition for most and you will never convince me otherwise as I probably have much more experience than most with it pre and post.

[darkmoonlady]

16 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You don’t know many TG’s, do you. I live in place where they are at least 5% of the population and two I have known for decades one of which was in my band which is a family like intimacy. This was never a thing in their lives until it became a media phenomenon and a brand new way for nobody to ever understand them and to be against them. In other words the type of people whose life is nothing but difficult problems and drama beyond their control and usually because everyone is always against them. Trans genderism was the perfect fit for these two guys to feed their drama to ever higher levels.  I love this guy like a brother and I could tell when he told me about his brave new choice that he was a bit disappointed that I embraced his decision. It’s a mental condition for most and you will never convince me otherwise as I probably have much more experience than most with it pre and post.

Lol so you don't like it therefore its wrong and no one will convince you otherwise. Sounds like classic prejudice to me. Replace trans with gay, or Jewish, or Christian or disabled even. As long as you personally don't like it, it's an invalid life. Good to know, no longer need to debate a bigot. Gotcha. 

[ExpandMyMind]

17 minutes ago, OverSword said:

It’s a mental condition for most and you will never convince me otherwise as I probably have much more experience than most with it pre and post.

Individual anecdotal evidence is completely meaningless when compared to research that has followed the scientific process. All you have is an opinion, which you are obviously entitled to. But I'm also entitled to tell you that your opinion is wrong, and I have the scientific community to back me up. All you have your self-professed skills at reading facial expressions, which apparently overrules science - a discipline that will 'never convince' you otherwise.

That last sentence says it all really about pretty much everyone who argues against subjects like these. Their minds are already made up and no amount of evidence will sway their opinion. At least you're honest about it though.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, darkmoonlady said:

Lol so you don't like it therefore its wrong and no one will convince you otherwise. Sounds like classic prejudice to me. Replace trans with gay, or Jewish, or Christian or disabled even. As long as you personally don't like it, it's an invalid life. Good to know, no longer need to debate a bigot. Gotcha. 

Again you compare incomparable things. Sorry you’ll never convince me that my friends are women. I think their lives are sad and always has been. It’s not a question of if I like it or not, I have more experience with people that are going through this both before it ever occurred to them to be women and after they pumped themselves so full of estrogen that the sound like they breathe helium.  You don’t know me so **** off.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Individual anecdotal evidence is completely meaningless when compared to research that has followed the scientific process. All you have is an opinion, which you are obviously entitled to. But I'm also entitled to tell you that your opinion is wrong, and I have the scientific community to back me up. All you have your self-professed skills at reading facial expressions, which apparently overrules science - a discipline that will 'never convince' you otherwise.

That last sentence says it all really about pretty much everyone who argues against subjects like these. Their minds are already made up and no amount of evidence will sway their opinion. At least you're honest about it though.

Well it goes much, much deeper than reading facial expressions it’s more like participating fully in these peoples messed up lives. Regardless of how scientists now decide to interpret this belief that your brain is in the wrong body cannot be defined as normal. It’s a mental condition by that very reason. Think a bit instead of accepting research interpreted through a political looking glass.

[darkmoonlady]

21 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Again you compare incomparable things. Sorry you’ll never convince me that my friends are women. I think their lives are sad and always has been. It’s not a question of if I like it or not, I have more experience with people that are going through this both before it ever occurred to them to be women and after they pumped themselves so full of estrogen that the sound like they breathe helium.  You don’t know me so **** off.

Your reasoning. 

 

[ExpandMyMind]

17 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Think a bit instead of accepting research interpreted through a political looking glass.

This sentence. Oh, man. It's hard for me to overstate just how out of touch with reality this belief is. 

[+OverSword]

39 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

This sentence. Oh, man. It's hard for me to overstate just how out of touch with reality this belief is. 

So it's normal to think your body is the wrong gender huh?  Nope.  That is by definition abnormal.  

[+OverSword]

10 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The WHO have made a serious error, in that they have allowed "political correctness" and social policy to interfere with their clinical role. They are wrong. 

Yes, and reason is they are afraid of the  zealous leftist destroying their careers.

[ExpandMyMind]

58 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So it's normal to think your body is the wrong gender huh?  Nope.  That is by definition abnormal.  

There is a distinct difference between abnormal and uncommon, both literally and culturally. That you would even use the term abnormal says so much about your views on this matter.

Quote

different from what is usual or average, especially in a way that is bad

 

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

There is a distinct difference between abnormal and uncommon, both literally and culturally. That you would even use the term abnormal says so much about your views on this matter.

 

Well I read the WHO definition (which is effective in 2022) which basically says they changed it to take away the stigma.  Then I read American Psychiatric Association reply which basically congratulates the WHO for being so brave and insightful and recognizing that there are many different levels and degrees of this and it basically comes down to how a person wants to feel about themselves.  None of it is linked to any scientific studies that I saw, just proclamation.   

I'm all on board with letting people think about themselves as they like if they're not hurting themselves or others, but my own experience shows these are very unstable individuals long before the gender confusion manifested. 

My band mate of over a decade always had complete and utter chaos and drama in his life.  This was usually because of other people and things that were beyond his control or so he always said.  He would use this narrative to attract sympathetic people, usually girlfriends, who would try to help him, often sacrificing their own well being to make things better for him which never worked.  For those of us who really knew him we saw clearly that he grew up in a very unstable home, probably didn't know who his father was but according to him his father was military intelligence who knew too much and was killed by the government using nerve toxins.  The government then gang stalked his mother and and he as a child virtually forcing her to dance naked and prostitute herself for  drug dealing biker gangs to make a living.  He was always crying (literally) that none of this was because of him and that outside forces beyond his ability to control constantly sabotaged him.  If you've ever been in a serious touring band then you will know that I know this person like a close relative so I know that once being trans became a more mainstream phenomena it was a new way for him to be different, hated, misunderstood and best of all, out of his control.

"But that's just one person OverSword."  Fine. 

A former coworker of mine and I have remained good friends since the mid eighties when I changed jobs.  About 12 years ago I attended her wedding.  She married a man, James (now Jamie) and they have a family but he was always having some kind of personal crisis.  It's usually someone else's fault and affects every aspect of their life negatively.  A few years ago he started dressing as a woman and saying he is transgender but still loves her and is only attracted to women.  Jennifer supported him in this and they went to counseling and groups for TG people, but for some reason despite all the support he was getting the drama in their lives got worse and worse. One of these support groups they attended actually had my old singer as a regular attendee and Jennifer assures me that the entire group was just like Raven and Jaime.  One day he stopped coming home and she and the kids didn't hear from him for weeks.  Turns out that Jamie is now a prostitute in Portland OR.

See, I do not have a completely uninformed opinion made up of media based prejudice on this subject.  This subject has actually touched my life deeper than a youtube video which is more than 99% of people can say.

Edited February 14, 2020 by OverSword

[aztek]

the worst thing is for T people is that pendulum will swing back, soon once everyone gets sick of this crap,  and they will be outcasts, and their life will be worse than ever before.

[Big Jim]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I'm all on board with letting people think about themselves as they like if they're not hurting themselves or others, but my own experience shows these are very unstable individuals long before the gender confusion manifested. 

I had a sister who developed anorexia at around the same time that puberty started.  Your description of your friends describes her to a T, except for the different types of body confusion.  Transgenders see themselves as the opposite sex and anorexics see themselves as fat.  Both go to extreme efforts to make their bodies align with their minds.  It seems so clear that in both cases the distortion begins in the mind but is only one symptom of many.  And, just like with your friends, the other symptoms of mental illness did not resolve themselves for her even after her body was, in her opinion, conforming to her vision. She had also been unstable and rebellious and just "different" almost from birth, long before she began to show physical symptoms.  In my uneducated opinion there seems to be a link between certain types of mental illness and bodily perceptions.  It would seem like the medical profession should explore all other options before removing parts and supplying hormones.  Better to bring the mind in alignment with the body than the other way around.

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I had a sister who developed anorexia at around the same time that puberty started.  Your description of your friends describes her to a T, except for the different types of body confusion.  Transgenders see themselves as the opposite sex and anorexics see themselves as fat.  Both go to extreme efforts to make their bodies align with their minds.  It seems so clear that in both cases the distortion begins in the mind but is only one symptom of many.  And, just like with your friends, the other symptoms of mental illness did not resolve themselves for her even after her body was, in her opinion, conforming to her vision. She had also been unstable and rebellious and just "different" almost from birth, long before she began to show physical symptoms.  In my uneducated opinion there seems to be a link between certain types of mental illness and bodily perceptions.  It would seem like the medical profession should explore all other options before removing parts and supplying hormones.  Better to bring the mind in alignment with the body than the other way around.

Sorry to hear that.  Had a neighbor succumb to anorexia a while back.  Very sad thing. 

[aztek]

2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

In my uneducated opinion there seems to be a link between certain types of mental illness and bodily perceptions. 

bodily perceptions ARE mental illnesses, just like they are in leopard\cat  people.  for some reason same people who say TG is normal, will not say the same about cat people

Quote

It would seem like the medical profession should explore all other options before removing parts and supplying hormones.  Better to bring the mind in alignment with the body than the other way around.

why? medical profession here is profit based, heavily, if they are paying, docs will do whatever the client is paying for.   they will not only get paid for surgeries, and hormones, but for lifetime rehab, and psychological treatments as well.  i developed a feeling in last 20 years that doctors don't really care about you, does not matter what they write on their yelp, or google, or whatever pages. they only care about getting paid and not getting sued, also don't forget political pressure. 

[Big Jim]

2 minutes ago, aztek said:

Quote

 

why? medical profession here is profit based, heavily, if they are paying, docs will do whatever the client is paying for.   they will not only get paid for surgeries, and hormones, but for lifetime rehab, and psychological treatments as well.  i developed a feeling in last 20 years that doctors don't really care about you, does not matter what they write on their yelp, or google, or whatever pages. they only care about getting paid and not getting sued, also don't forget political pressure.

I agree, but I'm old enough to still have this romantic notion that doctors should put the patient first.  On the other hand I'm very skeptical of the whole medical/pharmacological complex and use them as little as possible.  I don't believe it's an accident or limitation of science that there are so many treatments and so few cures.  Almost very condition is treated by a daily pill and the ads on TV are in constant search for people with new conditions to be treated.  Lately I've noticed a tendency to give every new condition an acronym.  "Do you have XYZ?  Then take this".  I've seen this develop along with the popularity of acronyms as slang on social media.  Give a disease a trendy name and you'll sell more pills.  It used to be that sick people went in search of a doctor.  Now the medical profession is in constant search of sick people.  We've become mere customers, not patients.

[XenoFish]

I think the rule of thumb now is to throw pills at the problem. 

[tortugabob]

I don't know any transgender males but I feel they were born that way.  I empathize with their pain. But physiologically they remain male if they have a penis.  And males and females, no matter what the feminists say, have physical differences that make a difference in sports,. I cannot believe that this issue has gone on as long as it has.  I hope the lawsuit goes forward and results in a positive judgement for real women.

 

[+OverSword]

11 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

That's your opinion. I think they're professional enough to distinguish.

Have you read up on it?  Go to their site and see if you can locate the research and studies that led them to this decision.  After that perhaps go to the site of the American Psychiatric Association and see their scientific assessment if you can find one.  The truth is that there is not a lot of hard science involved here as psychology is very ethereal in nature and not a hard science.  They came to a consensus essentially.  And consensus can and has changed over time this very subject being the proof of that statement.