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Myles

Girls file Lawsuit against transgenders

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spartan max2
6 minutes ago, aztek said:

mental disorders also feel natural,

That's a good point, I'll give you that.

But there is definitely a balance between defining something as a mental disorder just because people is society do not like it and between something actually being a problem that should be treated.

Trans is no more a disorder then being gay is based on our current knowledge.

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aztek
1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

 

 

 

Trans is no more a disorder then being gay is based on our current knowledge.

well it is more, a lot more, gays know they are biological  men\women,, they don't deny  they do not use imaginary gender identity, they have different sexual preference, trans however do deny their factual gender, but it wouldn't be that bad if they did not demand me to accept their disorder as factually different gender. that is what i have problem with, not their disorder

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Setton
11 minutes ago, OverSword said:

No.  They are not.  They are males.  It's science.  Even according to the WHO there are only two genders falling in the spectrum of xy and yy chromosomes.  There are minute variations within that but each assigned as one or the other. 

Well that's just outright false and shows your fundamental lack of understanding regarding sex and gender.

The WHO recognises two assigned sexes and recognises that an individuals assigned sex may not match their gender. 

That is the science the actual science and you are the one trying to deny it. Look up ICD-11 and read it. 

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Setton
6 minutes ago, aztek said:

well it is more, a lot more, gays know they are biological  men\women,, they don't deny  they do not use imaginary gender identity, 

Every identity is imaginary... They only exist in our heads. 

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TigerBright19

What does a psychiatrist do?

- Tell people what they want to hear?

- Tell people what they need to hear?

 

 

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Setton
7 minutes ago, aztek said:

trans however do deny their factual gender, but it wouldn't be that bad if they did not demand me to accept their disorder as factually different gender. that is what i have problem with, not their disorder

What trans people actually do is express that their physical sex does not match with their experienced gender (they are different things). 

What they ask is that you treat them according to who they are not what is between their legs. 

If that's something your genuinely incapable of doing, I'm not surprised but I do pity you. 

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Setton
Just now, Aaron2016 said:

What does a psychiatrist do?

- Tell people what they want to hear?

- Tell people what they need to hear?

They do the same as any other doctor - they diagnose illnesses. 

If they are not counting being transgender as an illness, you might just want to consider that they know better than you. 

Or would you try and correct your doctor if he said you were having a heart attack? I know there are some patients that stupid but sure you're not one. 

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OverSword
9 minutes ago, Setton said:

Well that's just outright false and shows your fundamental lack of understanding regarding sex and gender.

The WHO recognises two assigned sexes and recognises that an individuals assigned sex may not match their gender. 

That is the science the actual science and you are the one trying to deny it. Look up ICD-11 and read it. 

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

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TigerBright19
2 minutes ago, Setton said:

 

What they ask is that you treat them according to who they are not what is between their legs. 

 

 

Might be awkward using a public toilet.

 

Eddie mistakes the sink for something else.  :o

 

 

 

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OverSword
7 minutes ago, Setton said:

What trans people actually do is express that their physical sex does not match with their experienced gender (they are different things). 

What they ask is that you treat them according to who they are not what is between their legs. 

If that's something your genuinely incapable of doing, I'm not surprised but I do pity you. 

And this justifies intruding on spaces that biological females have worked hard to provide for themselves.  No.

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aztek
23 minutes ago, Setton said:

 

What they ask is that you treat them according to who they are not what is between their legs. 

 

and they are biologically different from what they think of themselves, so they ARE  demanding that i accept it as facts, what exactly was you point again?

Edited by aztek

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OverSword
9 minutes ago, Setton said:

What they ask is that you treat them according to who they are not what is between their legs

No problem, unless they're desire for this infringes on someone else such as women wanting to compete physically with other women.

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TigerBright19

What about nudists?  They are expressing themselves without infringing the rights of others, so shouldn't they have the freedom to express themselves in public just like everyone else?  I don't actually support it.  Just making a relatable point i.e. equal rights for all citizens.  Since we look upon nudists with a sense of moral outrage which is equal to the same outrage that was directed towards women in power, gays, transgender, and racial minorities.  One by one the outrage subsided, except for one category - public nudiness.

 

 

Edited by Aaron2016

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Big Jim
7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

That seems like an awful lot to go through to decide who gets to be on the women's volleyball team.  There must be a simpler way, like maybe limiting it to women.  

We've been all over the map in this discussion, but remember, this is about a suit being brought by a group of women who don't want to have to compete against people that they themselves don't recognize as peers.  A lot has been said in defense of people who think they're women.  Surely the thoughts of the women bringing the suit should be given as much weight.

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preacherman76
2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

In the medical world we use the term trans-women in your files because we accept that it is relevant to their physical state and has medical implications. Which is why it's relevant to this topic, the physical differences.

I have no issues calling a trans-women a women in other topics. But in this topic is it obviously a relevant distenction.

 

 

Over 90% of kids who are confused, or even outright believe they are a different gender than assigned at birth end up growing out of it. How would that be possible if there was actually a physical, genetic, or whatever reason for it?

And besides even if it’s true that some of these men’s brains show women’s traits, they still have a fully male body. Even a man who has had operations to turn female on average have 6 times the amount of testosterone women have. How much more so for the men that haven’t been surgically altered?

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OverSword
1 hour ago, Aaron2016 said:

Since we look upon nudists with a sense of moral outrage

Moral outrage?  Nope.  Just don't need to see that.  Regardless I do see public nudity at least once a year.

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TigerBright19
25 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Moral outrage?  Nope.  Just don't need to see that.  Regardless I do see public nudity at least once a year.

"Just don't need to see that".  Yes, but people who are completely against gay pride parades or witness gay couples kissing in public would say the same thing.  They don't want to see it.  They are being exposed to something that is very discomforting for them to watch, especially if they are religious.  Since the rights of the recipient (onlooker) are ignored, it makes sense that what the person is wearing (or not wearing) should also be considered as a personal choice by the wearer.  If a man can dress as a woman and associate himself as a woman and shower with the girls and is accepted by the community, then the nudists could freely walk down the high street and teach in schools without a stitch of clothing on.  At what point does something become immoral, perverted, and unacceptable?

 

 

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OverSword

  

13 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

"Just don't need to see that".  Yes, but people who are completely against gay pride parades or witness gay couples kissing in public would say the same thing.  They don't want to see it.  They are being exposed to something that is very discomforting for them to watch, especially if they are religious.  Since the rights of the recipient (onlooker) are ignored, it makes sense that what the person is wearing (or not wearing) should also be considered as a personal choice by the wearer.  If a man can dress as a woman and associate himself as a woman and shower with the girls and is accepted by the community, then the nudists could freely walk down the high street and teach in schools without a stitch of clothing on.  At what point does something become immoral, perverted, and unacceptable?

 

 

Totally not on subject.  Morals are not the reason trans-women should not be competing athletically against natural born women.

Edited by OverSword

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TigerBright19
55 minutes ago, OverSword said:

  

Totally not on subject.  Morals are not the reason trans-women should not be competing athletically against natural born women.

But the trans-woman would say they have a moral right to compete regardless of what science has to say, or they may not disclose what gender they really are because they no longer associate themselves with that gender, and they feel they are not morally obligated to disclose what their born gender really is.  We may already have transgender players who have no intention of stating what their original gender was because they would see that as an invasion of their privacy.

 

 

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preacherman76
24 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

But the trans-woman would say they have a moral right to compete regardless of what science has to say, or they may not disclose what gender they really are because they no longer associate themselves with that gender, and they feel they are not morally obligated to disclose what their born gender really is.  We may already have transgender players who have no intention of stating what their original gender was because they would see that as an invasion of their privacy.

 

 

Well that’s when Rational people need to step in and protect women and the integrity of their sporting events.
 

Bottom line, on a physical level, it’s extremely unfair to ask women to compete against men who they have no chance to win against. 

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OverSword
55 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

But the trans-woman would say they have a moral right to compete regardless of what science has to say, or they may not disclose what gender they really are because they no longer associate themselves with that gender, and they feel they are not morally obligated to disclose what their born gender really is.  We may already have transgender players who have no intention of stating what their original gender was because they would see that as an invasion of their privacy.

 

 

You never know for sure but I doubt it.  Most people competing at a high level in sports like swimming, basketball, tennis, have come up through a system for years.

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Golden Duck
4 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

But the trans-woman would say they have a moral right to compete regardless of what science has to say, or they may not disclose what gender they really are because they no longer associate themselves with that gender, and they feel they are not morally obligated to disclose what their born gender really is.  We may already have transgender players who have no intention of stating what their original gender was because they would see that as an invasion of their privacy.

 

 

Then those people won't be competing at the levels where blood and urine samples are subject to mandatory testing.

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DieChecker
9 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

It's true, you can't eliminate every variable and it's not practical to try.

Seperating between male and female ,and then within those two groups seperating based on skill, is the most effective way to account for the broadest form of physical differences to keep things competitive and fair.

If you start splitting base upon every variable, one, you will run out of enough players to even have sport teams and leagues, but two you would also have to create some convoluted test process and require highschool, clubs, and universities to administers those test. A lot of physical traits require medical samples and exams, cost money and time. 

I'd agree mostly, which is why I've said I hope the girls win.

However, my arguement to create more categories has been based on the belief that Politically Correct culture is correct. I dont think it is, but many do. So my suggestions arent to try to actually help girls/women, but what I think the PC Police would settle for, while allowing women in sports the best chance at recognition.

Ideally sports should be based on XX/XY.

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Setton
8 hours ago, OverSword said:

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

If you're going to plagiarise, a link is traditional. 

Here you go, along with the section on gender you left out:

Quote

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender.

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

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bee
9 hours ago, Setton said:

What trans people actually do is express that their physical sex does not match with their experienced gender (they are different things). 

What they ask is that you treat them according to who they are not what is between their legs. 

If that's something your genuinely incapable of doing, I'm not surprised but I do pity you. 

 

re bolded.... but it they and you that are fixated on what is between their legs....

in modern Western culture a woman can express the masculine side of their nature and a
man can express the feminine side of their nature without resorting to surgery and hormone
intervention...  we are not pigeon holed like we used to be... but those behind the transgender 
agenda are trying to push it onto another level and create faux women and faux men..

it's like an experiment using vulnerable people as the subjects... one's that might have
psychological problems or depression or dissatisfaction with their life and are drawn to thinking
that by changing sex everything will be ok... but it won't because... we are much more than what
we have between our legs... but unless we are born hermaphrodite we are basically male or
female..

it is patently ridiculous that transgenders, faux women, are allowed to participate in female sport..

 

 

Edited by bee
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