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Myles

Girls file Lawsuit against transgenders

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OverSword

400m CIF San Diego Championship 2007.jpg

Come on Setton, why wouldn't you even see the fastest woman in the world in this photo if women could run as fast as men?

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Myles
2 hours ago, Setton said:

And who exactly is denying that? 

I'm saying leagues should be based on strength or stature, not gender. 

You will find these debates a lot more productive if you try to argue the point that is being made, rather than the one you expect to be made. 

You are the one moving the goalposts.   There are currently males and female leagues and you want to allow males to play against inferior female competitors.  

 

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DieChecker
6 hours ago, Setton said:

It makes far more sense to have men and women compete together, in various height/weight categories, than to arbitrarily draw a line between men and women. Not only would that remove this issue, it would be a step towards true equality of opportunity between men and women. 

I could support that, but still more men then women would win.

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spartan max2
3 hours ago, Setton said:

And who exactly is denying that? 

I'm saying leagues should be based on strength or stature, not gender. 

You will find these debates a lot more productive if you try to argue the point that is being made, rather than the one you expect to be made. 

So instead of the most skilled women being able to be at the top of their sport you would instead have a system that puts then towards the bottom?

Splitting up sport leagues based on gender is what makes it fair and equal. You would have everyone in the same sport, which would just make women the bottom half (even if they are the same height and weight) instead of now where it is just seperated leagues. That would kill self esteem.

Basically you think a women should never be able to get a gold Olympic medal? Because that's what would happen if your idea was reality. 

Do you see how having both sexes in the same league is unfair to women?

 

We aren't talking about chess here where the sexes can be in the same league. We are talking about physical sports where genetic physical differences matter. 

 

 

 

Edited by spartan max2
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spartan max2
39 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I could support that, but still more men then women would win.

Seems reasonable until you think about the consequences.

No women would ever be able to win a gold Olympic medal if the sexes were mixed.

Men and women being the same height and weight does not even it out. The genetics are far more complicated then that as I mentioned some on my earlier post. Men would still win way more, which is unfair to women.

Women would get less sports scholarships because you would just want the males on your team.

Women's self esteem in sports would be ****.

It's just dumb.

Edited by spartan max2
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OverSword
4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So instead of the most skilled women being able to be at the top of their sport you would instead have a system that puts then towards the bottom?

Splitting up sport leagues based on gender is what makes it fair and equal. You would have everyone in the same sport, which would just make women the bottom half (even if they are the same height and weight) instead of now where it is just seperated leagues. That would kill self esteem.

Basically you think a women should never be able to get a gold Olympic medal? Because that's what would happen if your idea was reality. 

Do you see how having both sexes in the same league is unfair to women?

 

We aren't talking about chess here where the sexes can be in the same league. We are talking about physical sports where genetic physical differences matter. 

 

 

 

Women would not even qualify.  It is amazing how this false narrative has taken hold. It’s robbed people of common sense. 

Edited by OverSword
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and then
On 2/16/2020 at 9:02 PM, Doug1029 said:

The rules allowing transgender females are in effect right now.  They are trying to change that.

Doug

Does that seem "unfair" to you?  These kids/young adults work, train, and practice for years to excel and hopefully merit economic assistance to continue their education.  How is it "fair" for a person who is, by dent of their birth alone, a stronger, faster person than any of their competition?  This isn't rocket science.  Teen boys playing organized soccer are physically superior the women's World Cup team.  Why is it so difficult to admit these differences exist and to find a niche where the trans athletes can compete with each other rather than women who cannot ever hope to match them?  

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and then
11 hours ago, OverSword said:

That's idiotic.  Keep being wrong and comparing incomparable things.

 

Tyrone Curtis "Muggsy" Bogues is an American former basketball player. The shortest player ever to play in the National Basketball Association, the 5 ft 3 in Bogues played point guard for four teams during his 14-season career in the NBA. Wikipedia

Born: January 9, 1965 (age 55 years), Baltimore, MD

Height: 5′ 3″

Weight: 134 lbs

 

 

FIRST thing I thought of... mugsy was da man!

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Setton
12 hours ago, OverSword said:

See you ask for a fair conversation but just cowardly duck back behind your strawman when you get what you ask for.  You're wrong and aren't MAN enough to admit it.

If ever you want to engage with the argument I'm actually putting forward, feel free. 

Otherwise, enjoy wittering away to yourself. 

Quote

As i said, drawing the line based on gender is entirely arbitrary. 

It makes far more sense to divide based on ability than on gender. 

 

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Setton
10 hours ago, Myles said:

You are the one moving the goalposts.   There are currently males and female leagues and you want to allow males to play against inferior female competitors.  

 

If the leagues were based on ability, they would not be playing against inferior competitors, male or female. 

This really isn't a difficult concept. 

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Setton
10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I could support that, but still more men then women would win.

Thank you for being the first person to actually read the words. 

Why would more men than women win? 

If you stream by physical advantages, the winner of each stream will be the most skilled, rather than just strongest or largest. 

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likwidlite
3 minutes ago, Setton said:

If the leagues were based on ability, they would not be playing against inferior competitors, male or female. 

This really isn't a difficult concept. 

Surely the overwhelming statisitcs that prove men physically outperform women in pretty much every sport at every level (a few exceptions aside) is  enough evidence for you to see why the sexes aren't mixed. They are literally split based on ability. 

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Setton
10 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So instead of the most skilled women being able to be at the top of their sport you would instead have a system that puts then towards the bottom?

Splitting up sport leagues based on gender is what makes it fair and equal. You would have everyone in the same sport, which would just make women the bottom half (even if they are the same height and weight) instead of now where it is just seperated leagues. That would kill self esteem.

Basically you think a women should never be able to get a gold Olympic medal? Because that's what would happen if your idea was reality. 

Do you see how having both sexes in the same league is unfair to women?

 

We aren't talking about chess here where the sexes can be in the same league. We are talking about physical sports where genetic physical differences matter. 

You still can't get past the need to divide by gender, can you? 

Why would the largest/strongest league be the 'top' one? 

Try this analogy:

Boxing is divided by weight categories. All weight categories have a champion. You wouldn't host the Olympics and say 'ah, well you might be the best welterweight boxer but unfortunately you couldn't beat the best heavyweight so no medal for you' would you? 

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Setton
1 minute ago, likwidlite said:

Surely the overwhelming statisitcs that prove men physically outperform women in pretty much every sport at every level (a few exceptions aside) is  enough evidence for you to see why the sexes aren't mixed. They are literally split based on ability. 

They are not. They are split on an arbitrary physical characteristic (sex), not ability. 

I am proposing changing that arbitrary characteristic for a less arbitrary one - size/strength.

Will it result in one group that is still 99% men? Probably. 

Will it result in one group that is still 99% women? Probably. 

Will it also give more men and more women the chance to excel at sport? Yes. 

Will it also solve the issue raised in the OP without trampling on someone's identity? Yes. 

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Setton

@OverSword @Myles @spartan max2 @likwidlite

You are all so dead set against this idea (without having even understood it). 

What is your solution to the issue in the OP? 

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likwidlite
1 minute ago, Setton said:

@OverSword @Myles @spartan max2 @likwidlite

You are all so dead set against this idea (without having even understood it). 

What is your solution to the issue in the OP? 

Never said I was dead against your idea. Just think it's silly idea. I can look at the years of sports statistics and see that it's a silly idea and in some sports a dangerous one. A Male and Female even same height and weight are not physically the same. You mentioned boxing. Male and female bone density is not the same even lb for lb boxers males have an advantage.  How many fractured skulls would it take to convince you otherwise? Another example, motorsport . No rules on women in that. Just don't compete at the highest levels. 

Both men and women already have the opportunity to excel in sports. However for the most part womens sport isnt as popular. Seems to be a change for the better recently mind. 

For me the simplest solution is a third group. This would also help with rules on what drugs are being used for sex changes. For example how much of an advantage does taking testosterone give. Doping rules in sport are complicated enough without throwing more drugs. 

 

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Doug1029
6 hours ago, and then said:

Does that seem "unfair" to you?  These kids/young adults work, train, and practice for years to excel and hopefully merit economic assistance to continue their education.  How is it "fair" for a person who is, by dent of their birth alone, a stronger, faster person than any of their competition?  This isn't rocket science.  Teen boys playing organized soccer are physically superior the women's World Cup team.  Why is it so difficult to admit these differences exist and to find a niche where the trans athletes can compete with each other rather than women who cannot ever hope to match them?  

It's not just about sports.  To switch genders a person undergoes drug therapy and has to live as a member of the sex they want to become for a period of two years prior to the surgery.  During those two years they are ostracized and often attacked by their straight peers.  The existing school policies seek to change some of that to ease their transition.  The lawsuit also seeks to undo that policy.

I do agree that they should not be allowed to compete as members of their new sex until after they have had the surgery.  Up until that time their new gender is not set in stone and they could change their minds.

These surgeries cost upwards of $40,000 and are not covered by insurance.  Most people have to wait until they are independent adults before they can afford it.  For them, it is not an issue in high school.

I do not believe there is a way to be completely "fair" about this.  We're all going to have to give a little to get a little.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029

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Big Jim

Allowing men and women and others to all compete in the same league would eventually result in far fewer women competing at all.  How often do people want to do something at which they know they can't succeed?  One of the prime motivators of sports is the drive to win, to be the best.  A person may go out for the team but in the end they have to be chosen.  The coach is duty bound to pick only those applicants that he thinks will contribute to a winning team.  In a mixed field that would result in many more men than women being chosen.  A few seasons of this and the number of women even trying would fall to almost zero. 

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OverSword
1 hour ago, Setton said:

If ever you want to engage with the argument I'm actually putting forward, feel free. 

Otherwise, enjoy wittering away to yourself. 

 

I did engage in your false argument of size and weight. I gave examples from two sports in which the best females could not compete with the best or even just professionally proficient men. 

You are mistaken in this because you are  backing an unrealistic point of view. Equally trained female athletes cannot compete with their male counterparts.

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OverSword
1 hour ago, Setton said:

@OverSword @Myles @spartan max2 @likwidlite

You are all so dead set against this idea (without having even understood it). 

What is your solution to the issue in the OP? 

The solution is people must compete physically with those of the same gender as they as indicated by chromosomes or separate divisions for transgender athletes. Anything else is unfair to women.

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OverSword
2 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

It's not just about sports.  To switch genders a person undergoes drug therapy and has to live as a member of the sex they want to become for a period of two years prior to the surgery.  During those two years they are ostracized and often attacked by their straight peers.  The existing school policies seek to change some of that to ease their transition.  The lawsuit also seeks to undo that policy.

I do agree that they should not be allowed to compete as members of their new sex until after they have had the surgery.  Up until that time their new gender is not set in stone and they could change their minds.

These surgeries cost upwards of $40,000 and are not covered by insurance.  Most people have to wait until they are independent adults before they can afford it.  For them, it is not an issue in high school.

I do not believe there is a way to be completely "fair" about this.  We're all going to have to give a little to get a little.

Doug

Even after the surgery it's not equal.  Trans-women spend their adolescence as males, gaining greater muscle mass and bone density.  They will never be fair competition for natural born females.  

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OverSword
3 hours ago, Setton said:

They are not. They are split on an arbitrary physical characteristic (sex), not ability. 

I am proposing changing that arbitrary characteristic for a less arbitrary one - size/strength.

Will it result in one group that is still 99% men? Probably. 

Will it result in one group that is still 99% women? Probably. 

Will it also give more men and more women the chance to excel at sport? Yes. 

Will it also solve the issue raised in the OP without trampling on someone's identity? Yes. 

Size and strength are easily gimmicked.  Want to appear weaker?  Bench press less weight than you actually can.  Weigh less?  That's a no brainer for an elite athlete, boxers move between weight classes all the time.  You think that wouldn't happen?  Athletes are caught cheating all the time and this would not even necessarily be cheating.

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Setton
2 hours ago, OverSword said:

The solution is people must compete physically with those of the same gender as they as indicated by chromosomes or separate divisions for transgender athletes. Anything else is unfair to women.

So just ignore their identity because it's too hard for you to contemplate the idea that dividing on gender is entirely arbitrary. 

Got it. 

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Doug1029
52 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Even after the surgery it's not equal.  Trans-women spend their adolescence as males, gaining greater muscle mass and bone density.  They will never be fair competition for natural born females.  

That may be, but we can't discriminate against people because of their gender.  A trans woman is still a woman under law.

Doug

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OverSword
21 minutes ago, Setton said:

So just ignore their identity because it's too hard for you to contemplate the idea that dividing on gender is entirely arbitrary. 

Got it. 

If they have a problem competing with people that are fair competition for them that should be their issue not ours.  Dividing by gender is not arbitrary, you ignore every piece of evidence that clearly shows that to be fact.  

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