The reality of soul

[Horta]

1 hour ago, Marc9595 said:

Amor can be viewed as a shortened version of A-mors, without death

I suppose it could be. Do you have any quotes from any Roman author using it this way? Perhaps a medieval Latin literary work where it is used this way?

[Marc9595]

34 minutes ago, Horta said:

I suppose it could be. Do you have any quotes from any Roman author using it this way? Perhaps a medieval Latin literary work where it is used this way?

No, this is from an uncertain etymology, (differently from the other ancient words I've talked about) commmonly used in italy by latin teachers,(for example mine in high school) by some intellectuals and even by few people who are not interested in history since this it's a very popular, poetic and even romantic translation  (for example mine in high school) but In dante's heaven (dante was an heretic, he was probably a gnostic but wrote something bad (in hell to appeal the Church and be protected) there's l'amor che move l'sole e l'altre stelle, (Love that moves the sun and other stars) identifing the being, god, and the primus motor immobilis as love

Edited February 20, 2020 by Marc9595

[Mr Walker]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:45 AM, papageorge1 said:

@Marc9595  I hold that the Theosophical/Vedic (Hindu) view of the soul is the deepest understanding.

Consciousness/God/Brahman is eternal and infinite. A spark of this eternal Consciousness incarnates all living things. In the case of humans this consciousness animates a soul (a subtle body itself on a higher plane of reality) which then incarnates our progressively denser mental, astral and physical bodies.

It is interesting

The first half of ths is verifiable via personal experiences with this cosmic consciousness. (and i suspect that it is people with such experiences of contact who spread this truth in many different forms ) 

However, whether there is anything left of us to reintegrate, with or maintain contact with, this cosmic/universal consciousness, after the death of our brain, and thus mind, is arguable. 

It is possible that, after death, contact  and communication of ALL kinds ceases,  including the physical and the mental.

[papageorge1]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is interesting

The first half of ths is verifiable via personal experiences with this cosmic consciousness. (and i suspect that it is people with such experiences of contact who spread this truth in many different forms ) 

However, whether there is anything left of us to reintegrate, with or maintain contact with, this cosmic/universal consciousness, after the death of our brain, and thus mind, is arguable. 

It is possible that, after death, contact  and communication of ALL kinds ceases,  including the physical and the mental.

I am arguing for a top down transmission of consciousness. Source/Brahman/God to soul plane to mental plane to astral plane to physical plane. At death just the physical drops off the transmission chain. You seem to be thinking of some scenario where the transmission is upwards. That would be the opposite of what I am saying.

[Mr Walker]

On 2/20/2020 at 3:53 PM, Horta said:

That's not even close to being true. Orch OR is a pet belief of Hameroff and Penrose, but as has been mentioned it has little going for it in the way of support and has been criticised heavily both by physicists and neuroscientists. Apart from the physics and neuroscience problems, it has never been demonstrated that quantum effects are relevant to the function of the brain to begin with or why any explanation requires it. It seems the very strong belief of Hameroff and Penrose that the mind can leave the brain is about the only reason for considering it at this stage. Something that has also never been demonstrated scientifically either, as yet. Though at least Penrose does understand the subject unlike some other proponents of "quantum consciousness", he also readily agrees his idea has more holes than a sieve.

Which sadly still colours the view of many researchers who start from this pov and never get anywhere (particularly philosophers), because they look at "consciousness" as a "thing" in and of itself.

Neuroscience is finding that the "conscious self" is simply an illusion. Something is there, but it isn't a little "self" running things. In fact this "self" is intermittent and more of a post hoc "rationaliser" for the thoughts and feelings that arise from the brain (those that it is aware of at least, which probably isn't that much anyway). Particularly from the limbic system of which it has little to no control.

Never heard that translation, only ones suggesting love and/or friendship as in "omnia vincit amor" (love conquers all). It is quite a claim of knowledge that, to claim to know what ultimate reality consists of. Firstly love is a very ill defined word to begin with. How have you reached this conclusion? Surely that deserves an explanation at least, if it anything other than an idle airy fairy or poetic sentiment?

Again   i must disagree with you 

The "I inside us" is a very real thing, both as a physical energy form and as an evolved construct of self aware consciousness 

modern sciences are NOT showing what you say, although it is possible to interpret some of the findings in that way. 

However consciousness and memories are solid enough to be capable of recording, replaying, and reproducing, in both visual and verbal forms, as well a s in patterns of neural energy

One can argue that anything/everything's an illusion or unreal 

That is of course not just untrue but pointless as it leads nowhere, except to a form of intellectual nihilism,  where life and self being unreal, have no point or purpose 

Our intellect gives us the opportunity not only to sculpt or fashion ourlseves into what we chose to be, but to do the same for the physical world around us .

Love is one of those things we can fashion or sculpt. We can see it as an abstract intellectual concept.  We can build neural pathways to establish and consolidate  that concept into   a  physical pattern of energy and then to maintain it.  

It is an idea, which humans make manifest and physical. 

 

[Mr Walker]

7 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I am arguing for a top down transmission of consciousness. Source/Brahman/God to soul plane to mental plane to astral plane to physical plane. At death just the physical drops off the transmission chain. You seem to be thinking of some scenario where the transmission is upwards. That would be the opposite of what I am saying.

In my experience of a lifetime's contact with this consciousness, it is a partnership, and communication of conscious awareness.

It is only top down in that the other consciousness is wiser, older, and more mature   Both it, and we, are are evolved  entities. 

In my experience it is like a father/mother child relationship

ALL self aware consciousness throughout the galaxy, past and present, is linked to this universal consciousness(although most never learn to access or  communicate with it )  and it can be used as a conduit or "internet of the mind " to visit self aware consciousnesses  on earth,on  other worlds, or any time or place in the past which was seen and recorded in the mind of a slef aware being 

For me, apart from  numerous cases where the link has been strong enough to operate while wide awake  and this see into people's minds, ,this usually happens while i sleep and my strong conscious control of my mind is weakened enough to share with other minds, through the cosmic consciousness.  

While we are alive our mind is a part of this universal consciousness, contributing to it and sharing with it.

We are it and it is we.   Yet we are all, also, individual minds. 

From my experience i suspect, but cant know, that. on our death the ongoing record of our life is  stored in  a virtual reality which can be accessed by those still alive /aware and in conscious control of their thoughts.

Thus i can visit my dead parents but they are only interactive recordings of their lives 

[papageorge1]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

In my experience of a lifetime's contact with this consciousness, it is a partnership, and communication of conscious awareness.

It is only top down in that the other consciousness is wiser, older, and more mature   Both it, and we, are are evolved  entities. 

In my experience it is like a father/mother child relationship

ALL self aware consciousness throughout the galaxy, past and present, is linked to this universal consciousness(although most never learn to access or  communicate with it )  and it can be used as a conduit or "internet of the mind " to visit self aware consciousnesses  on earth,on  other worlds, or any time or place in the past which was seen and recorded in the mind of a slef aware being 

For me, apart from  numerous cases where the link has been strong enough to operate while wide awake  and this see into people's minds, ,this usually happens while i sleep and my strong conscious control of my mind is weakened enough to share with other minds, through the cosmic consciousness.  

While we are alive our mind is a part of this universal consciousness, contributing to it and sharing with it.

We are it and it is we.   Yet we are all, also, individual minds. 

From my experience i suspect, but cant know, that. on our death the ongoing record of our life is  stored in  a virtual reality which can be accessed by those still alive /aware and in conscious control of their thoughts.

Thus i can visit my dead parents but they are only interactive recordings of their lives 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am arguing for layers of reality below the Universal Consciousness. There are astral planes and mental planes above and interpenetrating the physical plane. We actually feel with our astral body and think with our mental body. Thus at death and as reported in Near Death Experiences we are the same personality and thought processes but lighter and freer without the clunkiest physical body in the consciousness chain.

The physical brain is only needed to have a physical plane experience.

 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

29 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am arguing for layers of reality below the Universal Consciousness. There are astral planes and mental planes above and interpenetrating the physical plane. We actually feel with our astral body and think with our mental body. Thus at death and as reported in Near Death Experiences we are the same personality and thought processes but lighter and freer without the clunkiest physical body in the consciousness chain.

The physical brain is only needed to have a physical plane experience.

 

 

 

I am not so sure

I think our brain produces ALL our experiences but under the command and control of our mind 

I can go anywhere in the universe and anytime in the past  using my mind/brain.

I can slip through gates portals and wormholes to other dimensions, pocket universes, and domains (One could call these astral planes but that doesn't work for me)   

However i can only verify as real, things which can be known in this world and human sphere of knowledge  

Ive had one very real NDE, but i wasn't dead, just deeply unconscious.

Unlike for many, this was deeply disturbing experience for me  but i used my dream skills to overcome it 

I suspect that, on death, all consciousness ceases for us, although others might be able to access our stored consciousness.  

Ps i am freed from my physical body every night and   consciously  project my self   aware consciousness,  and construct any dreams scape, world, universe, or  plane , that i choose.

For me, that  is just a normal part of a normal life.   

 

Ps i dont mean to knock a belief system, and you might be right, but i can only go by what i know and experience to be true.  More than that requires a belief, based on faith, of which I am incapable  .  

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Tatetopa]

On 2/19/2020 at 1:48 PM, Marc9595 said:

The soul exists and is eternal, science is proving it (https://newsinstact.com/science/quantum-physicists-proved-that-human-has-an-immortal-soul/), science is even interested in reincarnation (https://ideapod.com/scientists-examine-2500-cases-reincarnation-reveal-common-previously-realized/) a thing i believe to be true and amazing, but to be not the only possibility of afterlife. Some religions claim the soul to be mortal, but this is not true and it's due to a very bad contact with some evil members of an alien race, mistaken for god,

Welcome to Um if nobody has done so yet.  If they have, welcome again.  Interesting topic.

I am not a scientist, but there are a couple of things about this that trouble me.

Microtubules that exist in the brain are seemingly tied to the functioning of the neuron.  This may be one of those realms where biology and physics meet.  As yet there seems to be an incomplete understanding of the entirety of their function, and even exactly how they do it.  They seem to be both structural and have the ability to modify and change their scaffolding structure.  They are real, if not well understood.

Parallel universes are one way we might be able to reconcile and tie up some of the loose ends in quantum physics.  Most theories of parallel universes posit that once a quantum event happens and the two created universes separate, there is no further communication between the multitude of universes that might lay so closely mapped "next to"  our own.  "Next to" is not a good description of the relationship though.

I will not pretend to be the equal of the scientists you listed nor that I can match brains with theirs.  What I will do is criticize the journalists and opportunity seekers.  This is a pattern that happens often.

An astrobiologist speculates that it is highly likely that life exists on Europa.  The journalist claims. "Scientists certain  that life exists on Europa"

A cosmologist speculates that when the expansion of the universe halts it will begin to collapse back into itself in another 30 billion years.  The headline reads, "Earth is doomed by collapsing universe."

So too in this case do the opportunists  take advantage.

Parallel universes do not interact.  So far, nobody knows if they are real or not.

Microtubules play a role in thought and memory, but their function is not understood and any information they contain may rapidly transition into entropy.

So at best, scientists were speculating that this could be possible.

It is not a theory.  A theory has to be testable.  So far we are unable to test either of these premises.  It makes for interesting speculation, and maybe some day something about this will be testable. As yet nothing about this is proven.  

 

 

[Tatetopa]

On 2/19/2020 at 1:48 PM, Marc9595 said:

The soul exists and is eternal, science is proving it (https://newsinstact.com/science/quantum-physicists-proved-that-human-has-an-immortal-soul/), science is even interested in reincarnation (https://ideapod.com/scientists-examine-2500-cases-reincarnation-reveal-common-previously-realized/) a thing i believe to be true and amazing, but to be not the only possibility of afterlife. Some religions claim the soul to be mortal, but this is not true and it's due to a very bad contact with some evil members of an alien race, mistaken for god,

A second post about skeptics.   

Because somebody believes something and they are smart, is not evidence that it is true.

You yourself have mentioned Stephen Hawking's surmise that aliens would be aggressive and contradicting that, your belief that they are not.

Someone that is skeptical may be holding out for rigorous and unequivocal evidence that can be replicated.  They may not be small minded or materialistic.   In fact, they may want more than anything for the supposition to be true. But there is a certain dogged reliance on logic and visible steps that leaves no room for faith to replace a missing step in the process or to claim victory when results are ambiguous.  No matter how much we want to believe or how comfortable it would make us feel or how believable the supposition is,  akeptics cannot make the leap.

The  scientific method  and foundation of logic is a successful way of understanding the universe .  I believe it because I see it tested time and again and it has not been  found faulty yet.  I can't abandon that and hope that faith will bridge the gap.

[papageorge1]

50 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not so sure

I think our brain produces ALL our experiences but under the command and control of our mind 

I can go anywhere in the universe and anytime in the past  using my mind/brain.

What is this 'mind' you speak of? How do you travel to all these places you mention?

52 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 

I suspect that, on death, all consciousness ceases for us, although others might be able to access our stored consciousness.  

What is this stored consciousness?

54 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 

 

Ps i dont mean to knock a belief system, and you might be right, but i can only go by what i know and experience to be true.  More than that requires a belief, based on faith, of which I am incapable  .  

 

Well I trust the knowledge of the many spiritual masters that have contributed to these wisdom traditions much like I trust and learn from the best specialists in all fields of knowledge. I don't call it 'faith' but just following the best sources all things considered.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Tuco's Gas said:

Not to denigrate the powers of the human mind or imagination, as both are incredibly powerful, but to make your second point a bit more accurate,  I would respectfully amend it to read: "In my mind I can IMAGINE going anywhere in time or in the Universe." 

There is a difference, after all. Unless you're claiming powers of Astral Projection. 

Not astral projection, but confirmed projection of consciousness in THIS world. Astral projection by its nature, is impossible to confirm. Projection of consciousness from your bed, out  into this world, is quite easily demonstrable 

Since i was a child for over 65 years I have sporadically and regularly "travelled"

While i cant confirm the accuracy of what i saw beyond the furthest human space probes, I can confirm the reality of anything within that reach 

I cant prove this to others online, but i can and have proved it to myself and those around me,  with formal and informal testing, but mainly simply confirming the real-time accuracy of things i observed  It has got me into trouble a few times, but it has been used to help others  and purely  for education and pleasure  I cant do it "on demand" anymore, but in my teens and early teaching years i could and did  

As to the imagination. Who knows the truth of things observed across the galaxy? .

To complicate things i also used dreams  for pure recreation and have so since a very young child.

Even as a preschooler i created an entire underworld realm  entered by a trap door in my back yard . and inhabited by all sorts of intelligent creatures from  children books.

I remained king of this domain until about the age of 12 or so, when my subconscious kicked me out of it and opened up another, more adult, realm, which encompassed the universe via wormholes gateways and pocket universes 

Of course i can imagine going anywhere. and to any time.  and living there in as clear a reality as i do in this world. 

I have what is called controlled lucid dreaming. I can construct a dream before going to sleep, enter into it fully conscious, and then either take control of it, or become a participant in the scenario Ie i can be either a director or an actor in any  role, from any genre    Of course these are created entirely from my mind, but you  wouldn't believe some of the things I have experienced within my realms of the mind 

I only ever claim these as more than a dream when the y have independent confirmation that they are also taking me into a real world situation  while I dream.    

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

What is this 'mind' you speak of? How do you travel to all these places you mention?

What is this stored consciousness?

Well I trust the knowledge of the many spiritual masters that have contributed to these wisdom traditions much like I trust and learn from the best specialists in all fields of knowledge. I don't call it 'faith' but just following the best sources all things considered.

mind is the evolved self aware consciousness apparently so far only found in human beings.

  It is a product of brain but is not brain. it is a slef aware self  controlled programme operating  using the infrastructure of the brain for life support 

I travel by extending my consciousness OR by linking my consciousness to that of another OR by a combination of the two 

Ie i can traveland observe as a non corporeal consciousness or I can hitch a ride in the mind/ brain of any other slef aware being, and watch listen and learn through its eyes and its actions  (but i cant speak its language or understand its thoughts unless it is speaking in English )

In my experience at least some consciousnesses are recorded and stored.

You can visit them like visiting a library, open up the storage space and enter into the mind of the person, You then enter a totally realistic virtual reality, interactive recording, of the person's life and can zoom into any period of it.

  You can speak with them observe them and learn from  them But the y cant learn or change although they  can respond to and interact with you

 

eg i spent many hours with my father before he was married or I was born coming to know him as a young man   We could talk and i could find out things about him but i couldn't tell him he was dead or even that i was his son from the future,  Ie i could say the words, but he just "ignored" them

 

Ive used it a lot to study history  and understand the pov of people living in past eras Sometimes you dont have to go far back to be surprised. I was studying the local hospital in the forties or so The doctors all smoked, the patients mostly smoked and there were ash buckets in all the wards(no such thing as private rooms,) Attitudes and knowledge were incredible. There were no female doctors, the doctors all wore suits, and the nurses lived in fear and awe of the doctors.  I probably have more/ better medical knowledge than most of the doctors from  the time

Every person has a different experience and some find it easier than others to clearly explain their own experiences to others  Thus we end up with a widely varying understanding of these things    

Edited February 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[papageorge1]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

mind is the evolved self aware consciousness apparently so far only found in human beings.

  It is a product of brain but is not brain. it is a slef aware self  controlled programme operating  using the infrastructure of the brain for life support 

I travel by extending my consciousness OR by linking my consciousness to that of another OR by a combination of the two 

Ie i can traveland observe as a non corporeal consciousness or I can hitch a ride in the mind/ brain of any other slef aware being, and watch listen and learn through its eyes and its actions  (but i cant speak its language or understand its thoughts unless it is speaking in English )

In my experience at least some consciousnesses are recorded and stored.

You can visit them like visiting a library, open up the storage space and enter into the mind of the person, You then enter a totally realistic virtual reality, interactive recording, of the person's life and can zoom into any period of it.

  You can speak with them observe them and learn from  them But the y cant learn or change although they  can respond to and interact with you Ive used it alot to study history  and understand the pov orf people living in past eras Sometimes you dont have to go far back to be surprised. I was studying the local hospital in the forties or so The doctors all smoked the patients mostly smoked and there were ash buckets in all the wards(no such thing as private rooms,) Attitudes and knowledge were incredible There were no female doctors the doctors all wore suits, and the nurses lived in fear and awe of the doctors.  I probably have more/ better medical knowledge than most of the doctors from  the time

Every person has a different experience and some find it easier than others to clearly explain their own experiences to others  Thus we end up with a widely varying understanding of these things    

It sounds like you might be reading what other traditions would call the Akashic Record which contains a record of all events.

Still what I see different in your thinking from my Vedic (Hindu)/Theosophical wisdom traditions is your thinking that the brain is the source of intelligence. In the Vedic/Theosophical view thought originates on a higher mental plane of reality producing the corresponding activity in the physical brain through downward sympathetic vibrations. This is why one can actually have enhanced mental experiences during a Near Death Experiences when higher physical brain activity is not functioning. The clunkiest part of the process (the dense physical part) does not drag the thought process when the astral/mental bodies separate at death (or temporarily during a Near Death Experience).

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

It sounds like you might be reading what other traditions would call the Akashic Record which contains a record of all events.

Still what I see different in your thinking from my Vedic (Hindu)/Theosophical wisdom traditions is your thinking that the brain is the source of intelligence. In the Vedic/Theosophical view thought originates on a higher mental plane of reality producing the corresponding activity in the physical brain through downward sympathetic vibrations. This is why one can actually have enhanced mental experiences during a Near Death Experiences when higher physical brain activity is not functioning. The clunkiest part of the process (the dense physical part) does not drag the thought process when the astral/mental bodies separate at death (or temporarily during a Near Death Experience).

I guess  I cant help having a 20th century  university  education including the nature of human cognition, speech and psychology 

We all interpret what we  observe, through the filters imposed by individual and cultural experience and knowledge 

For me that includes a lot of 20th century knowledge but also a life long love of science fiction,   so i tend to see things in those terms rather than those of older religious forms or beliefs 

To me religions, faith, belief, spirituality, etc., are essential parts of being human,  but they  are abstract constructs, which are different to the concrete realities of the world.

   The abilty to project consciousness is real.  The religious and philosophical explanations for how or why it occurs are constructs of the mind, which people have built to explain the observable reality      

ps you can achieve that separation of mind and body at will, with education, discipline and practice,

  You can also learn to recognise, hear/interpret,  and speak to, your "subconscious" mind, so that your conscious mind controls ALL your mind, not just the conscious bits  Once you  have done that you can,  for example. not only control all your body responses, but you can decide what dream you want on any night and have it ready to enter when you fall asleep 

I am not sure if I am lucky or unlucky but apparently my mind keeps working a t a very high level even when asleep Indeed while asleep I always know who i am, where i am, and that i am now in a dream world.  From what i read today less than 1% of people can read in a dream, yet i can read pages and write as well.

Most people don't converse normally in a dream but i never knew that.

my dream conversations are just as real and clear as my waking ones (I've had many dreams where i taught a whole class a lesson for 30 minutes or more , talking, listening, responding to questions  etc as clearly as i do in real life  )

My brocas and wernicke's areas must be highly developed  

[Mr Walker]

20 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It sounds like you might be reading what other traditions would call the Akashic Record which contains a record of all events.

Still what I see different in your thinking from my Vedic (Hindu)/Theosophical wisdom traditions is your thinking that the brain is the source of intelligence. In the Vedic/Theosophical view thought originates on a higher mental plane of reality producing the corresponding activity in the physical brain through downward sympathetic vibrations. This is why one can actually have enhanced mental experiences during a Near Death Experiences when higher physical brain activity is not functioning. The clunkiest part of the process (the dense physical part) does not drag the thought process when the astral/mental bodies separate at death (or temporarily during a Near Death Experience).

Not the brain. The mind. 

The brain is the host and power house and the mind probably dies if the brain is injured or dies, but mind is NOT the brain.

Potentially it is independent enough from the brain to be transferred to a different brain, or into an artificial intelligence host, in the future.  However it requires an energy- life support system

Right now we are beginning to record and broadcast images and words from  the mind.   

[papageorge1]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I guess  I cant help having a 20th century  university  education including the nature of human cognition, speech and psychology 

We all interpret what we  observe, through the filters imposed by individual and cultural experience and knowledge 

For me that includes a lot of 20th century knowledge but also a life long love of science fiction,   so i tend to see things in those terms rather than those of older religious forms or beliefs 

To me religions, faith, belief, spirituality, etc., are essential parts of being human,  but they  are abstract constructs, which are different to the concrete realities of the world.

Well my point earlier is that Vedic science and Theosophy are based on the direct observations of many, many masters I respect. They are not intended to create a faith but a science of how the universe functions beyond the physical level we can all see.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

   The abilty to project consciousness is real.  The religious and philosophical explanations for how or why it occurs are constructs of the mind, which people have built to explain the observable reality      

I guess that would be a differing point between us. The masters I respect I believe can directly investigate the objective universe through psychic senses and they help build wisdom traditions that are quite detailed and explanatory. 

 

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

   

ps you can achieve that separation of mind and body at will, with education, discipline and practice,

  You can also learn to recognise, hear/interpret,  and speak to, your "subconscious" mind, so that your conscious mind controls ALL your mind, not just the conscious bits  Once you  have done that you can,  for example. not only control all your body responses, but you can decide what dream you want on any night and have it ready to enter when you fall asleep 

I am not sure if I am lucky or unlucky but apparently my mind keeps working a t a very high level even when asleep Indeed while asleep I always know who i am, where i am, and that i am now in a dream world.  From what i read today less than 1% of people can read in a dream, yet i can read pages and write as well.

Most people don't converse normally in a dream but i never knew that.

my dream conversations are just as real and clear as my waking ones (I've had many dreams where i taught a whole class a lesson for 30 minutes or more , talking, listening, responding to questions  etc as clearly as i do in real life  )

My brocas and wernicke's areas must be highly developed  

I'll leave you to your 'figure it out yourself' approach but I as an apparently less able consciousness will continue to learn from the many masters I believe have seen deepest into the nature of the 'beyond the physical' universe.

[papageorge1]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not the brain. The mind. 

The brain is the host and power house and the mind probably dies if the brain is injured or dies, but mind is NOT the brain.

Potentially it is independent enough from the brain to be transferred to a different brain, or into an artificial intelligence host, in the future.  However it requires an energy- life support system

Right now we are beginning to record and broadcast images and words from  the mind.   

I'm not sure how you determined that the mind requires a physical plane energy life support system and why not an astral/mental energy life support system as other wisdom traditions and many masters maintain. The mind is faster higher and lighter on these less dense planes.

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, Tuco's Gas said:

As I said, imagination is a powerful thing. Yours sounds well-developed.

You sure wrote a long reply just to say I was correct in my OP. 

Cheers!

I love writing almost as much as i love reading Plus it only takes a few seconds to write that 

One point. I take something as imagination until it is independently  verified by evidences.  Then I move it form imagination to a real experience  eg in the early 60s, while exploring the solar system, I flew over a moon and saw geysers coming up from the surface I went back hovered over one and watched it for a while   I noted this in my journal with the name of the moon which i looked up in a book  (enceladus) It was many decades later before space probes identified and recorded those geysers on that moon. 

I flew through the rings of saturn and found them to be only a few meters thick where i went through them. At  the time the y were considered much thicker by science.

  Again, later space probes found they were indeed, in places, only  10 metres thick, although other parts were up to 3 kilometres thick .

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I'm not sure how you determined that the mind requires a physical plane energy life support system and why not an astral/mental energy life support system as other wisdom traditions and many masters maintain. The mind is faster higher and lighter on these less dense planes.

I don't do belief, only knowldge. We  KNOW the brain/mind requires energy, and a host, which can be biological or artificial.  We know the evolutionary process by which both brain and mind evolved 

The rest is  a nice, unproven belief,  which, lacking any evidence, has to be take on faith. 

The mind is the mind.  it processes billions of pieces of information a second.

You can train your mind to think faster and better, at a conscious level, so that you are thinking at incredible speeds but your mind is always operating incredibly fast at a subconscious level, and you  can learn to tap into that level   so that you don't have to verbalise thoughts or commands but order things directly via your subconscious. 

Not sure how my mind could be any faster than it is. 

It is only limited by the speed of neuron firings in the brain.

That is about 100 BILLION firings per second.    How would not having a body/brain increase that rate ? 

[WanderingFool0]

23 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not so sure

I think our brain produces ALL our experiences but under the command and control of our mind 

I can go anywhere in the universe and anytime in the past  using my mind/brain.

I can slip through gates portals and wormholes to other dimensions, pocket universes, and domains (One could call these astral planes but that doesn't work for me)   

However i can only verify as real, things which can be known in this world and human sphere of knowledge  

Ive had one very real NDE, but i wasn't dead, just deeply unconscious.

Unlike for many, this was deeply disturbing experience for me  but i used my dream skills to overcome it 

I suspect that, on death, all consciousness ceases for us, although others might be able to access our stored consciousness.  

Ps i am freed from my physical body every night and   consciously  project my self   aware consciousness,  and construct any dreams scape, world, universe, or  plane , that i choose.

For me, that  is just a normal part of a normal life.   

 

Ps i dont mean to knock a belief system, and you might be right, but i can only go by what i know and experience to be true.  More than that requires a belief, based on faith, of which I am incapable  .  

 

I saw in an earlier post that you said it was pointless when one argues that everything can be rendered as unreal, but I am curious in how you determine that even things in this world are real, when ones experience and knowledge of them arises from within ones mind and consciousness? By what method outside of consciousness can we actually verify that the external world really exists?

[papageorge1]

39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't do belief, only knowldge. We  KNOW the brain/mind requires energy, and a host, which can be biological or artificial.  We know the evolutionary process by which both brain and mind evolved 

The rest is  a nice, unproven belief,  which, lacking any evidence, has to be take on faith. 

I don’t do faith either but I do learn from the many masters that have created Vedic and Theosophical wisdom traditions from their direct experiences and observations. It’s much like your method but includes the input of many spiritual adepts. I am no Mr. Walker or spiritual adept myself so I learn from those I judge more advanced than me.

39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The mind is the mind.  it processes billions of pieces of information a second.

You can train your mind to think faster and better, at a conscious level, so that you are thinking at incredible speeds but your mind is always operating incredibly fast at a subconscious level, and you  can learn to tap into that level   so that you don't have to verbalise thoughts or commands but order things directly via your subconscious. 

Not sure how my mind could be any faster than it is. 

It is only limited by the speed of neuron firings in the brain.

That is about 100 BILLION firings per second.    How would not having a body/brain increase that rate ? 

In the 1960’s you could have written about the amazing abilities of those computers and it would have sounded mind-blowing at the time too.

I believe higher plane intelligence is more than we can fathom.

Edited February 24, 2020 by papageorge1

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Well my point earlier is that Vedic science and Theosophy are based on the direct observations of many, many masters I respect. They are not intended to create a faith but a science of how the universe functions beyond the physical level we can all see.

I guess that would be a differing point between us. The masters I respect I believe can directly investigate the objective universe through psychic senses and they help build wisdom traditions that are quite detailed and explanatory. 

 

I'll leave you to your 'figure it out yourself' approach but I as an apparently less able consciousness will continue to learn from the many masters I believe have seen deepest into the nature of the 'beyond the physical' universe.

I guess I had no choice but to figure it out for myself 

From the time I recognised my inner voice aged about 3 or 1954/55 I worked to gain total control of my mind and body  I spent several hours every day, for at least 15 years,  learning and developing the techniques and skills to do this. Basically all by trial and error 

This was in the 1950s.

There were no masters or gurus, and no internet, available.

There were a very few books on eastern philosophies 

Over the next two decades i gained complete control over my mind and body including my subconscious  I canbregulte pulse rate blood pressure temperature and breathing  by will and discipline When younger i could hold my breathe for over 5 minutes underwater  I can construct enter and participate in dreams of my choice which are totally real and completely lucid   Sometimes i can even use certain skills gifts or talents to help others  I learned to speed read as fast as i could turn a page and to be able to recall almost eidetically anything i had read or heard Even today when i have slowed down a bit, it is not uncommon to read 3 books a day (aout 300000 words in about  5 hours ) That is not speed reading for information but reading for pleasure

Speed reading i read "the english patient " in 40 minutes   (82370 words)  or about 2000 words a minute. I didnt  enjoy it but i understood it all   

Ps it is possible to read even faster than this Some people achieve 25000 words per minute with a 95% comprehension rate  However i had 40 minutes for lunch so i paced myself to achieve the task (and ate my lunch while reading ) 

I have no fears anxieties or negative emotions, although I construct and use all the positive ones 

What is a master ? One who knows the theory, or one who uses it in practice?.  I never read the theory. I just learned to do it  

Edited February 24, 2020 by Mr Walker

[papageorge1]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I guess I had no choice but to figure it out for myself 

From the time I recognised my inner voice aged about 3 or 1954/55 I worked to gain total control of my mind and body  I spent several hours every day, for at least 15 years,  learning and developing the techniques and skills to do this. Basically all by trial and error 

This was in the 1950s.

There were no masters or gurus, and no internet, available.

There were a very few books on eastern philosophies 

Over the next two decades i gained complete control over my mind and body including my subconscious  I canbregulte pulse rate blood pressure temperature and breathing  by will and discipline When younger i could hold my breathe for over 5 minutes underwater  I can construct enter and participate in dreams of my choice which are totally real and completely lucid   Sometimes i can even use certain skills gifts or talents to help others  I learned to speed read as fast as i could turn a page and to be able to recall almost eidetically anything i had read or heard Even today when i have slowed down a bit, it is not uncommon to read 3 books a day (aout 300000 words in about  5 hours ) That is not speed reading for information but reading for pleasure

Speed reading i read "the english patient " in 40 minutes   (82370 words)  or about 2000 words a minute. I didnt  enjoy it but i understood it all   

I have no fears anxieties or negative emotions, although Ii construct and use all the positive ones 

What is a master ? One who knows the theory, or one who uses it in practice.  I never read the theory I just learned to do it  

Great, but I’m not sure how that helps me understand the structure of the super-physical reality. For me I’ll stick with the what I find the most advanced adepts and wisdom traditions that provide insight into the subjects of my interest.

[Mr Walker]

38 minutes ago, WanderingFool0 said:

I saw in an earlier post that you said it was pointless when one argues that everything can be rendered as unreal, but I am curious in how you determine that even things in this world are real, when ones experience and knowledge of them arises from within ones mind and consciousness? By what method outside of consciousness can we actually verify that the external world really exists?

By logic and experience, education and observation,  constructing understanding

Ie we are evolved physical beings But we have a unique property of evolved conscious self  awareness 

It would take pages to explain this in detail but basically. 

If i make a chair you can sit in it and so can someone 1000 years in the future. Not only that, but you  will KNOW its form function and intended use   by analysing form and attaching function to the form.  

We build doors in our houses so that we can get into and out of them. Every day i try passing through  a wall, but unless i'm dreaming, i cannot do so 

We are evolved to be an integrated part of a larger whole. We cant exist outside of that  supporting environment and we are capable of altering and even destroying it 

There is a consistency to personal experience eg you can "always" breathe natural air   you will always drown if you  try to breathe water Fire will burn you  Gravity prevents you flying, although you can fly using technology or in your dreams.  

Indeed the physical differences between the dream world and the waking one illustrate the difference between a mental existence and a physical one You can do anything,  including creating and  destroying  anything, by thought  alone, in a dream.  In waking life it requires the expenditure of physical energy to manipulate physical things, either your own or via technology   The resistance of the physical world illustrates its independent physical existence.