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Eldorado

US desperate for legal immigrants

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Setton
14 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

My comments are not xenophobic.  I am justified!  I will refer to them anyway I damn well please.  They are not welcome here

Are you playing extremist bingo? 

Because I think this post almost nets you a full house. 

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Desertrat56
19 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

My comments are not xenophobic.  I am justified!  I will refer to them anyway I damn well please.  They are not welcome here.  That is not xenophobia.  I could care less as to their physical attributes, except for the physical threat they possess. 

You can only speak for yourself.  I think you protest way too much about the xenophobia.  Have you ever been outside of your neighborhood or even Bernalillo county?

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Setton said:

Are you playing extremist bingo? 

Because I think this post almost nets you a full house. 

No, I'm just talking over your head.

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

You can only speak for yourself. 

I actually speak for quite a few New Mexicans, evenly mixed between Anglo & Hispanic.

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think you protest way too much about the xenophobia.

I'm not the one bringing it up.  It is intellectually lazy to call me a xenophobe.  Shows a lack of understanding of what I speak of.  You've allowed the Left's talking points to influence you over common sense.

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Have you ever been outside of your neighborhood or even Bernalillo county?

Yes I have.  And your point?

Why don't you get a bus and go down to that dog park on 3rd just south of the freeway where the homeless congregate and fill that bus and bring them to your home to live??

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

Such a pessimistic view and all wrong.  It’s not so much about those that are uneducated as it is having them en masse.  That does not encourage self-sufficiency.  The key is to have more people be Producers and fewer being takers.  When you flood the environment with dependency, it draws everyone down.  Wages is usually one of the first to be affected.  When you dilute the market, the principle of supply in demand takes over.  It’s not so much as having educated people as it is those that are prosperous.  Those that are prosperous will find their level of education.

Is a lettuce picker a producer and someone on public assistance a taker?

First of all, we can both agree that illegal immigration is no way to solve problems. 

I don't think you can necessarily link how many come in and whether they will be self sufficient.  You are talking about herds again.   If there is work, and people can find it and be here legally without excessive fear, they will be self-sufficient.  I am

2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

This is getting into the other issue I wanted to comment on originally.  We have a tight market right now.  That is why wages are going up and unemployment stays low.  The majority of those that seek or desire work are working.  We don’t need more legal immigrants.  We take in over 1 million new legal immigrants each year which is more than any place else.  I’m a skeptic toward Mulvaney, but I don’t think he wants to flood the market with more workers to keep wages down.  I think he is anticipating an expanding economy, which means that we might be able to accept more immigrants in, even perhaps some kind of modified amnesty for certain illegals (i.e. Dreamers)??  A growing economy solves all kinds of evils.  Now we have to survive this Coronavirus.  But this should be a wake up call to bring our manufacturing back to this country.  The sooner we can gear up for this, the easier it will be on the people.  Hopefully this virus is not some ploy by the Globalists to bring down Trump??

Agreed, our market is tightening up, wages are good.  How many immigrants we need, I certainly don't know, nor is there much data to inform your opinion.  We don't bring in a million or more immigrants a year because we area charity organization.  We do it to feed our economy.  Have you considered that we bring in more than anybody because our economy is the biggest in the world?

I don't know what the economy needs, 1 million or 1.5 million.   I would like goals to be sensibly set rather than "Let everybody in" or "One million is enough." Those are based on personal opinions and how well we like immigrants rather than the economy.

You are living in a Trump centrist world if you think this is geared around Donald Trump.  Even I am not so stricken with TDS to think he is the cause or reason for everything.  Remember Ebola, remember SARS?  Back a hundred years ago it was Spanish influenza. Epidemics and the occasional pandemics happen.  Viruses are evolving too and we are in a war.  There will be other pandemics long after Trump retires.

I worry about manufacturing too.  I have spent my entire 45 year career making American manufacturing competitive through engineering new processes or automation.  It has been a loosing battle, but one I did not want to give up.   You know that the US does not make its own penicillin, hasn't since about 2004 along with a lot of other drugs we don't make but buy from offshore suppliers.  Why do you think corporations outsourced that sort of thing? 

Why do you think any corporation outsources manufacturing to other parts of the world?    Usually the answer is money.;  It is cheaper to make it overseas.

2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

So have I.  But most do want to stay.  They make more money in a week than their parents made in a year.  And that’s just waiting tables.

What are you talking about? We are not scouring the world for waiters and dishwashers.  We are looking for scientists, and engineers, and finance people.   Those are  people who already have their education.  We don't want to bring in somebody with no skills.  Those people, if they come from  East Asia can double or triple their salaries here over what they can make at home as computer scientists, not 50 times, and not working as waiters.  If they come from Northern Europe they don't always even double their salary.  At least if they are blue-eyed blondes they don't have random strangers screaming at them to go back where they came from.

2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

That is such a Marxist statement.  Why does it have to be “Us” verses “Them”?  It doesn’t unless you want to create division where division doesn’t need to be.  It is *ALL* of *US* in it together.

Marxist?  Hardly, it is hard nosed capitalist.  It is not and never has been "All of us in it together."  That is socialism.   It has always been about competition: business against business, employee against employee, and business against employee.  That is the whole thing about capitalism, and you have preached it a number of times yourself.  It is about the rewards of pursuing self interest.  Boeing does't care if Kelloggs goes out of business.  Walmart doesn't care if it drives family businesses out of the market.  And neither do most consumers.  You might be exceptional, but a lot of people will shop at Walmart to save 50 cents and watch the mom and pop store go out of business,  They are pursuing self interest, not some bigger picture of  "we are all in it together."

Self -sufficiency is competition for jobs and resources. You can sing Kum Buy Yah at church maybe,  but not on the factory floor or in the board room.

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STAR LORD

Un regulated immigration is an invasion and changes a nation such as Canada. We now face sharia law. 

Edited by STAR LORD
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STAR LORD

Any attempt to slow or limit immigration is called racists... It's not, it's called preservation.  

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aztek
6 minutes ago, STAR LORD said:

Any attempt to slow or limit immigration is called racists... It's not, it's called preservation.  

i remember when your current liberal pm was elected some canadians here, were ecstatic, like their life would improve next day, by a large margin, lol  your propaganda industry works very well. 

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Setton
7 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

No, I'm just talking over your head.

I highly doubt that. 

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Desertrat56
13 hours ago, STAR LORD said:

Un regulated immigration is an invasion and changes a nation such as Canada. We now face sharia law. 

Canada has stricter immigration laws and the infrastructure to enforce them than anyone except maybe Australia.  If you think you are now facing sharia law, I want details.  How has this happened, because illegal immigrants aren't allowed to vote so tell me another story.

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odas
15 hours ago, STAR LORD said:

Un regulated immigration is an invasion and changes a nation such as Canada. We now face sharia law. 

Where? 

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odas
15 hours ago, aztek said:

i remember when your current liberal pm was elected some canadians here, were ecstatic, like their life would improve next day, by a large margin, lol  your propaganda industry works very well. 

It did. Overall. Minimum wage went up but stopped by conservatives for higher. Truck driver pay up to average 25/hour plus benefits, construction on a highpoint, less taxes more left net, help for small business owners...

I can't complain at all. 

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and then
On 2/21/2020 at 10:16 AM, Desertrat56 said:

It makes NO sense.

It makes perfect sense if the need is for PRODUCTIVE, educated, English-speakers.  In today's world, education is critical and there is a glut of unskilled workers already.

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Desertrat56
10 minutes ago, and then said:

It makes perfect sense if the need is for PRODUCTIVE, educated, English-speakers.  In today's world, education is critical and there is a glut of unskilled workers already.

There is also a glut of people with college degrees, large student loans, and no equivalent job to compensate them for the expense of college.  SO, it makes no sense.  Now that college is a for profit business and is able to produce a lot of degreed people who can't get jobs in the degrees they have there is no excuse for needing educated immigrants to fill the void.  Especially since it is so hard to find teenagers who want to work at McDonalds or learn a skilled job.  Education in this country has fallen in the crapper and that is why we need skilled, educated workers.  We don't have dole like the UK does where unemployed and unemployable people can survive.

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odas
44 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

There is also a glut of people with college degrees, large student loans, and no equivalent job to compensate them for the expense of college.  SO, it makes no sense.  Now that college is a for profit business and is able to produce a lot of degreed people who can't get jobs in the degrees they have there is no excuse for needing educated immigrants to fill the void.  Especially since it is so hard to find teenagers who want to work at McDonalds or learn a skilled job.  Education in this country has fallen in the crapper and that is why we need skilled, educated workers.  We don't have dole like the UK does where unemployed and unemployable people can survive.

We do face a similar issue in Canada. College grads cannot find a job in their field AND at least here in Ontario thanks to DF con education is getting more expencive.

Filling lower skilled jobs can be done only by immigrants. I do not blame either one, companies or college educated kids who do not want to settle for less nor do I blame immigrants to fill the void.

I do blame the greed that is all about money atnd plays people agains each other.

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Desertrat56
10 minutes ago, odas said:

I do blame the greed that is all about money atnd plays people agains each other.

I do as well. 

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RavenHawk
On 2/27/2020 at 6:26 PM, Tatetopa said:

Is a lettuce picker a producer and someone on public assistance a taker?

It depends.  If the lettuce picker is an illegal working for wages a fraction of what a citizen sharecropper or foreign migrant on a work visa would make, then they can only be a taker.  Being a lettuce picker doesn’t make them a hard worker but it does make them as someone who is deliberately undercutting wages for everybody else.  Again, illegals broke the law at least once, and they do not care about those whose livelihood they undermine.  Don’t you think that the farmers that get these people to work have enforcers to keep them inline?  There are always troublemakers in the group.  And when they are on their own time, they engage in burglary and drugs.

 

I don't think you can necessarily link how many come in and whether they will be self sufficient.  You are talking about herds again.   

Yes you can.  If you are here illegally, you can’t be self-sufficient.  It’s not in your character.  You can only take from others (i.e. larceny, i.e. crime).  I am talking about herds because that is what they are.  They bring nothing good.  They bring crime, poverty, and disease.  Why should a nation allow this to happen to itself?  You don’t need to have arms to invade but that is what a herd does (invade) and it endangers the safety of all.  It is people like Soros that encourage these hordes for the single purpose to bring down our Constitution.  Soros is an example of treason.  That kind of behavior is never good for a system like ours.  There needs to be a course of action for such transgressions.

 

If there is work, and people can find it and be here legally without excessive fear, they will be self-sufficient.  I am

Precisely!  But what about those here illegally?  It’s enough to make it worse for everyone.  Because they don’t play by the rules, ruins the game for everybody.  And that creates excessive fear.  At least 5% of the population are illegals.  That is enough to throw any society into a downward spiral (it doesn’t take much).

 

How many immigrants we need, I certainly don't know, nor is there much data to inform your opinion. 

That is the job of Mulvaney and others.  Congress has been setting limits since Ellis Island.  I’ve got enough data to determine a ballpark figure.  It takes years for an immigrant to assimilate and given the tight job market, definitely more immigrants would put too much of a strain on our system.  But if our economy is expected to grow, then we can certainly increase the number of immigrants.  Again, that is the government’s job to set that limit.  How fast will the economy grow?  How many more immigrants are needed to keep a tight market?  But whatever that is, we can’t waiver from it or even tolerate illegals.

 

As I’ve mentioned before, I would be fine with an open border policy (still would need the wall, beefed up checkpoints, and patrols) with just one proviso.  If you come here, you come to work and you receive no public assistance what-so-ever, yet pay taxes and must survive on that.  If you can’t, then you can return home.  But even this would need to be regulated.  Still wouldn’t be able to allow too many in and like at Ellis Island, they need to be segregated and medically checked out first.  They need to be documented for taxes.  I’m sure that if you set the ground rules, most would turn into legitimate hard workers.  They might even begin to earn a pathway to citizenship.  They still would need to repay their debt to society.

 

We don't bring in a million or more immigrants a year because we area charity organization.  We do it to feed our economy. 

Precisely!  Illegals violate those standards.  If we let illegals in especially ahead of those that are desirable, we could pollute our stream of immigrants and turn-off the desirable from wanting to immigrate.

 

Have you considered that we bring in more than anybody because our economy is the biggest in the world?

Precisely!  And that stream needs to be protected.  Is Mulvaney pushing the Administration’s agenda that the economy is on the verge of significantly growing?

 

I don't know what the economy needs, 1 million or 1.5 million.   I would like goals to be sensibly set rather than "Let everybody in" or "One million is enough." Those are based on personal opinions and how well we like immigrants rather than the economy.

You are correct to a point.  That 1 million we have now was established by the economy and assimilation rates.  Congress has been involved in this regulation process for a long time.  They will regulate how many more we can absorb.  And then that will be enough.

 

You are living in a Trump centrist world if you think this is geared around Donald Trump.  

Not exactly.  Trump has geared this around the American people and the Progs can’t stand that.  They can’t allow a government of the people, by the people, and for the people to survive.  What would Socialists do?  Something like that must perish.  If they can’t bring down Trump by other means, they will use disease.  Much more costly but worth it in the Socialist frame of mind.  Socialism never sheds a tear for the loss of a few million.

 

Even I am not so stricken with TDS to think he is the cause or reason for everything.  Remember Ebola, remember SARS?  Back a hundred years ago it was Spanish influenza. Epidemics and the occasional pandemics happen.  Viruses are evolving too and we are in a war.  There will be other pandemics long after Trump retires.

And how many pandemics in the modern era have been weaponized against a nation and its leader like Corona has?  Ebola, SARS, or even the Spanish Flu weren’t.  TDS is what is doing that.  And like the Russian Collusion, the fake Dossier, Impeachment, etc. this too will fail.  Anything to distract the public from how bad the DNC candidates are.  The first ballot at the convention will be deadlocked.  The Super Delegates will vote against Sanders in the second ballot, but that will still be a deadlock.  Then Hilary will get the nomination in the third ballot.

 

I worry about manufacturing too.  I have spent my entire 45 year career making American manufacturing competitive through engineering new processes or automation.  It has been a loosing battle, but one I did not want to give up.  

Don’t give up.  People like you are needed now more than ever!  It’s those like you that need to start gearing up manufacturing in this country.  A nation cannot stay a nation unless it can manufacture.  Outsourcing is ruining us.  Doesn’t matter if it is automated of not.

 

You know that the US does not make its own penicillin, hasn't since about 2004 along with a lot of other drugs we don't make but buy from offshore suppliers.  

I’m *VERY* aware.  And we are going to get hurt from this unless someone like you can standup penicillin production or even better, Corona vaccine in this country in the next 6 months.  Just as it was gearing up industry during the early days of WWII.  Although, it will be more like 18 months.  That’s not good enough.  Getting a vaccine by then will be a moot point.

 

Why do you think corporations outsourced that sort of thing? 

Well what about now?  Why it was outsourced in the first place doesn’t matter.  Why you don’t outsource in the first place has now become clear.

 

Why do you think any corporation outsources manufacturing to other parts of the world?    Usually the answer is money.;  It is cheaper to make it overseas.

Now they realize that cheap isn’t necessarily the bottom line; securing that there will always be a bottom line is.  When times are easy, outsourcing may even be the logical thing to do.  But without planning ahead, you just don’t go hog-wild on the outsourcing.  Good times fluctuate with bad.  We need a strategy that exploits the good and mitigates the bad.  Will business learn the lesson that you don’t outsource all of your manufacturing capabilities?

 

What are you talking about? We are not scouring the world for waiters and dishwashers. 

By keeping an open border, we are doing just that.

 

We are looking for scientists, and engineers, and finance people.   Those are  people who already have their education. 

I was thinking of those that are going to school here.  Many of them go to places like Alaska in the summer to make money waiting tables or working in tourism.  They are in the process of getting their degrees and most would love to stay.  They need to be encouraged to stay.  Many are already assimilated.  But illegals ruin it for them.  Many overstay their visa for one reason or another.  These need to be salvaged and not worry about finding a pathway to citizenship for illegals.  Whatever it costs to deport illegals would be worth it.

 

We don't want to bring in somebody with no skills. 

But that is what we are doing with open borders and sanctuary cities.  We fill the cities with disease, crime, and poverty.

 

Marxist?  Hardly, it is hard nosed capitalist. 

No, it’s Marxist.  Pitting one class against the other.

 

It is not and never has been "All of us in it together." 

It has always been about "All of us in it together".  That it is not is a lie pushed by Socialism.  Our economy thrives on three pillars, Business, Workforce, and Consumer and the interactions between them.  One can never get too dominate before the other two rein it back in by self-correction.

 

That is socialism.   

That’s not socialism.  It is just unity.  Socialism is never about the unity of a collective.  It is about the control of that collective.  A Republic is about the sanctity of Natural Rights.  You have the unity of the collective known as individuals in a Republic.  Usually the term collective (cogs) has a subordinate meaning in Socialism.  Individual means ‘of equals’ free from control.  In Socialism, the collective is enslaved.  That is the primary difference between the two general forms of government.  One believes in private property and the other does not.

 

It has always been about competition: business against business, employee against employee, and business against employee. 

You are also forgetting the Consumer is against each of those and itself in that sense.  But you are straining things a bit.  Competition between these is different than setting up class warfare between them.  Competition is unifying but class warfare is divisive.  A free market thrives on healthy competition and Socialism thrives on divisiveness and manipulation.  The free market guarantees opportunity.  Socialism must control outcome.  Those are two philosophies that are diametrically, polar opposites.  These last two paragraphs are essential in understanding the differences between Socialism and Republicanism.

 

That is the whole thing about capitalism, and you have preached it a number of times yourself.  It is about the rewards of pursuing self interest. 

Correct.  And the more mature a business is, develops more advanced self-interests.  They start to realize that treating the Consumer and the Worker well is in their own self-interest.  Loyalty translates into more money.  But if there is a class division going on, that interest will never develop.  It resorts to getting all you can and others be damn.  Competition is an act of community, not control.

 

Boeing does't care if Kelloggs goes out of business.  Walmart doesn't care if it drives family businesses out of the market.  And neither do most consumers. 

No, they don’t and shouldn’t have to.  But when you sow distrust between one pillar and another, there can’t be honest competition.  Sowing distrust is what Socialism has brought to our system.

 

You might be exceptional, but a lot of people will shop at Walmart to save 50 cents and watch the mom and pop store go out of business,  They are pursuing self interest, not some bigger picture of  "we are all in it together."

But many do look for that “Made in America” label and shy away from the “Made in China” crap.  They would rather pay an extra 50 cents for quality and support local business.  That is self-interest because it’s paying attention to the big picture (something Socialism just doesn’t understand).  Of course, there are times when the cheap crap will suffice.

 

Self -sufficiency is competition for jobs and resources. You can sing Kum Buy Yah at church maybe,  but not on the factory floor or in the board room.

Self-sufficiency, self-reliance, self-confidence, etc. has nothing to do with any of that.  It is being responsible for oneself.  When you are responsible for yourself, then you compete with nobody but yourself.

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Desertrat56
4 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

It depends.  If the lettuce picker is an illegal working for wages a fraction of what a citizen sharecropper or foreign migrant on a work visa would make, then they can only be a taker.  Being a lettuce picker doesn’t make them a hard worker but it does make them as someone who is deliberately undercutting wages for everybody else.  Again, illegals broke the law at least once, and they do not care about those whose livelihood they undermine.  Don’t you think that the farmers that get these people to work have enforcers to keep them inline?  There are always troublemakers in the group.  And when they are on their own time, they engage in burglary and drugs.

Does it occur to you that the person hiring the illegal lettuce picker is committing a felony?  Why is no one talking about the people who purposely hire illegals and them pay them a wage so low they can't survive on their own.  Too many people have this backwards.

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RavenHawk
18 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Does it occur to you that the person hiring the illegal lettuce picker is committing a felony?

Does it occur to you that maybe it has occurred to me?  Maybe this is just a whole different thread?  The reply was getting pretty long as it is.

 

Why is no one talking about the people who purposely hire illegals and them pay them a wage so low they can't survive on their own. 

Start a thread and then somebody will talk about it.  It takes two to tango here.  Until the border is closed, it’s not really the government’s realm to impose laws on American business to protect illegals.  If they were here legally, that would be a different story.  As long as the border remains open, people will flock in (and break laws) to get even the paltry wages these farmers and ranchers pay them.  Even the little that illegals get is more than they are used to at home.  You have to change the playing field.  Leadership must be unified in closing the border.  Right now, too much leadership waivers at closing the border.  That encourages the current situation to continue.

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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

  Don’t you think that the farmers that get these people to work have enforcers to keep them inline? 

There are laws against hiring illegals.   If there were no easy jobs to get, there would be a lot fewer illegal immigrants.  Enforce the laws.

 

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes you can.  If you are here illegally, you can’t be self-sufficient.  It’s not in your character.  You can only take from others (i.e. larceny, i.e. crime).  I am talking about herds because that is what they are.  They bring nothing good.  They bring crime, poverty, and disease.  Why should a nation allow this to happen to itself?  You don’t need to have arms to invade but that is what a herd does (invade) and it endangers the safety of all.  It is people like Soros that encourage these hordes for the single purpose to bring down our Constitution.  Soros is an example of treason.  That kind of behavior is never good for a system like ours.  There needs to be a course of action for such transgressions.

That is all opinion, not supported by fact.

 

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Precisely!  But what about those here illegally?  It’s enough to make it worse for everyone.  Because they don’t play by the rules, ruins the game for everybody.  And that creates excessive fear.  At least 5% of the population are illegals.  That is enough to throw any society into a downward spiral (it doesn’t take much).

Don't let Americans offer jobs to people here illegally and there will be a lot fewer who come.   Yep a strong border and control of immigration is good for us. Enforce the existing laws. to remove some of the incentive to come.

 

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

That is the job of Mulvaney and others.  Congress has been setting limits since Ellis Island.  I’ve got enough data to determine a ballpark figure.  It takes years for an immigrant to assimilate and given the tight job market, definitely more immigrants would put too much of a strain on our system.  But if our economy is expected to grow, then we can certainly increase the number of immigrants.  Again, that is the government’s job to set that limit.  How fast will the economy grow?  How many more immigrants are needed to keep a tight market?  But whatever that is, we can’t waiver from it or even tolerate illegals.

You don't trust Congress for anything else, why this?  If it is like every other facet of regulation, it is money that talks.  It is not scientific, it is not designed for the good of the citizen.  It is competing lobbyists who want night janitors for Walmart or want to protect an industry that offer money and power for votes. 

 

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

As I’ve mentioned before, I would be fine with an open border policy (still would need the wall, beefed up checkpoints, and patrols) with just one proviso.  If you come here, you come to work and you receive no public assistance what-so-ever, yet pay taxes and must survive on that.  If you can’t, then you can return home.  But even this would need to be regulated.  Still wouldn’t be able to allow too many in and like at Ellis Island, they need to be segregated and medically checked out first.  They need to be documented for taxes.  I’m sure that if you set the ground rules, most would turn into legitimate hard workers.  They might even begin to earn a pathway to citizenship.  They still would need to repay their debt to society.

Checkpoints are fine. Regulation is fine.  We don't do this out of the goodness of our hearts, we do it for cheap labor.  To pay taxes employers would have to record their pay and take out taxes.  No more under the table cheap labor.  Enforce the existing laws.  What debt to society would these regulated and working people without any benefits incur?

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Not exactly.  Trump has geared this around the American people and the Progs can’t stand that.  They can’t allow a government of the people, by the people, and for the people to survive. 

The progs would love a government by the people and for the people.  They head 3 million more votes for a lousy candidate in the last election.

 

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

And how many pandemics in the modern era have been weaponized against a nation and its leader like Corona has?  Ebola, SARS, or even the Spanish Flu weren’t. 

Trump among others was very vocal in his attacks on the Obama Administration for its handling of Ebola.    Do we forget so quickly?

 

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Don’t give up.  People like you are needed now more than ever!  It’s those like you that need to start gearing up manufacturing in this country.  A nation cannot stay a nation unless it can manufacture.  Outsourcing is ruining us.  Doesn’t matter if it is automated of not.

I have never given up.  Yet it has a price too.  In the five plants I have worked in, I eliminated something around 400 jobs.  It made the companies more competitive, profitable and might have saved  3000 other jobs, but there is always a price.  Think about it RavenHawk.    does it matter what ground an automated factory sits on if it does not pay taxes or employ citizens?

 

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Competition is unifying but class warfare is divisive.

Pipe smoke!   There is nothing unifying about competition, 

 

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Individual means ‘of equals’ free from control.

OK I like that.  So, regardless of how you phrase it, it is every man for himself.   I have seen a lot of engineers get laid off because I produced more revenue for the company than they did.  It isn't because my boss liked me better, it is because I made him more money.  It isn't because I liked my boss either,  It is because I knew what I had to do to generate income for myself.  The voluntary raises I got were trivial.  It wasn't until I found a better job and turned in my two week or  1 month notice that I got the offer to match my new wage.   That happened 3 times.  I might be wrong but  I will assume it is a trend.

Businesses do the least amount possible for customers and employees.  In general a successful business wants to buy out competition before it  becomes a threat.  Free markets and open competition are not the norm anymore.

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Correct.  And the more mature a business is, develops more advanced self-interests.  They start to realize that treating the Consumer and the Worker well is in their own self-interest. 

No, it was  upstart businesses in competition for a limited number or highly skilled employees that started this trend, not mature businesses.  Innovations come from the small and hungry, not the large and well fed.

 

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

No, they don’t and shouldn’t have to.  But when you sow distrust between one pillar and another, there can’t be honest competition

I will tell you for a fact that consumers and employees cannot trust large businesses.  Greed is in the drivers seat and deceit becomes a tool to be used.  I have been way too involved in the hiring and compensation end of things and also solving customer complaints to believe any differently.  It has radically changed over the last 30 years to get where we are today.  You my friend are living in a more innocent past, when many things were as we think they should be.

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STAR LORD
On 2/28/2020 at 8:19 AM, Desertrat56 said:

Canada has stricter immigration laws and the infrastructure to enforce them than anyone except maybe Australia.  If you think you are now facing sharia law, I want details.  How has this happened, because illegal immigrants aren't allowed to vote so tell me another story.

https://www.bbc.com/news/50061529

WE pay terrorists

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/trudeau-defends-apology-and-105-million-payment-to-omar-khadr/article35623594/

https://www.truenorthinitiative.com/just_the_facts_a_brief_history_of_sharia_law_in_canada

OHHH NOOO nothing to see here. Just look away

 

 

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STAR LORD
On 2/28/2020 at 10:22 AM, odas said:

Where? 

Look into it. Or are you a lefty and don't care till effects you personally. ? 

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Tatetopa

Well, Mick is out so maybe we are not desperate anymore.

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Desertrat56
17 hours ago, STAR LORD said:

That has nothing to do with your claim about illegal immigrants and sharia law. 

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odas
On 3/7/2020 at 6:29 PM, STAR LORD said:

Look into it. Or are you a lefty and don't care till effects you personally. ? 

No. I am a muslim so I would like to know the address so that I can apply.

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