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spartan max2

Utah Senate votes to decriminalize polygamy

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Festina
9 minutes ago, rashore said:

Digging around a little.. since Utah with Mormons seems kind of an almost overdone obvious point of topic in this thread.. BTW, just some Mormons are polygamists along with a lot that are not... some other folks not Mormon at all also represent a population of polygamy in the U.S.. so, a little more info in a more legal sense. This it a bit of a situation of Fed vs state rights as well.

While polygamy is illegal in all states, and Federally due to the Edmunds Act.... If this passed on in the House and put into law, Utah wouldn't be the first state to decriminalize or make a misdemeanor of polygamy. Alaska, Hawaii, Montana, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and Maine have all already done so. Michigan and Mississippi flat out nope to all cohabitation. The rest of the states still list as a felony, though the severity of that varies by state too.

For folks interested, here's Utah SB102, the bill in question. Along with whos sponsoring and tracking of the bill: https://le.utah.gov/~2020/bills/static/SB0102.html

And real quick for age of marriage in Utah reference, "The age of consent is eighteen. With parental consent, a person can marry at sixteen. A person can marry at age fifteen with parental consent and judicial approval or court commissioner." https://family.findlaw.com/marriage/state-by-state-marriage-age-of-consent-laws.html

 

 

If polygamy is legalized many will engage in the practice.  I’ve been following some Mormons online on this subject for awhile. I live in Idaho, a heavily Mormon sate. Personal experience. 

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rashore
2 minutes ago, Festina said:

If polygamy is legalized many will engage in the practice.  I’ve been following some Mormons online on this subject for awhile. I live in Idaho, a heavily Mormon sate. Personal experience. 

It wouldn't be legalized, it would be decriminalized. Two different things. Decriminalizing takes it from a felony or criminal level that gets incarcerated down to a misdemeanor or more fine/community time that does not get incarcerated.

Legalizing is making it legal, as in zero penalties from the legal system. Reducing a misdemeanor to no fines or anything, it's just legal.

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Festina
1 minute ago, rashore said:

It wouldn't be legalized, it would be decriminalized. Two different things. Decriminalizing takes it from a felony or criminal level that gets incarcerated down to a misdemeanor or more fine/community time that does not get incarcerated.

Legalizing is making it legal, as in zero penalties from the legal system. Reducing a misdemeanor to no fines or anything, it's just legal.

Like weed.....?

 

Edited by Festina

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spartan max2
21 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I've given up trying to define normal.  But for the sake of this discussion I will say that Mormons are not normal and proud of it.  Every Mormon I've known has been extremely upright and hard working, generous and pious.  But some of their beliefs are pretty weird, if you ask me.

The stories of any exes are naturally biased and critical of the situation they are free from.  That goes for ex Catholics or Anglicans, Republicans or Democrats.  If I were to tell you stories about my ex you would never consider marriage at all.  To have any validity they would have to be compared to the stories of women in plural marriages who have remained in the church.  As with anything else, it's probably not all bad.

They may be able to make the claim about just living together now but legal marriages leave records.  If there are under age girls living with adults other than their parents there must be some sort of documentation or there are already laws to deal with it.

The face given to outsiders is different then to those in the group.

I don't think you've witnessed the workings of cult like religious groups before. 

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Big Jim
9 minutes ago, Festina said:

Utah has the highest rate of depression in the US.

No surprise there.  It only takes one wife to cause that.  Besides, Mormons believe that they're married forever.  I'd be depressed too if I thought a certain situation would last for eternity.

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Festina
3 minutes ago, rashore said:

It wouldn't be legalized, it would be decriminalized. Two different things. Decriminalizing takes it from a felony or criminal level that gets incarcerated down to a misdemeanor or more fine/community time that does not get incarcerated.

Legalizing is making it legal, as in zero penalties from the legal system. Reducing a misdemeanor to no fines or anything, it's just legal.

Yes. You are correct. 

Edited by Festina

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Big Jim
3 minutes ago, rashore said:

It wouldn't be legalized, it would be decriminalized. Two different things. Decriminalizing takes it from a felony or criminal level that gets incarcerated down to a misdemeanor or more fine/community time that does not get incarcerated.

Legalizing is making it legal, as in zero penalties from the legal system. Reducing a misdemeanor to no fines or anything, it's just legal.

I can see this operating as if it was legal.  People can now get married in the open and just pay a fine.  Many people would be proud to practice their beliefs without having to hide if the penalty cost less than the bouquet.

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aztek
5 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

No surprise there.  It only takes one wife to cause that.  Besides, Mormons believe that they're married forever.  I'd be depressed too if I thought a certain situation would last for eternity.

imagine having that many mothers in law,,,forever

Edited by aztek
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Festina
3 hours ago, rashore said:

Interesting that it's a reduction from a third degree felony to a minor offense to get a few hundred dollar ticket and community service. Time will tell if it passes the House next.

“One step at a time”.  

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Festina

I knew this was coming.  

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Festina

 

MIND CONTROL

“Polygamous marriage is basically essential to Mormon theology. Mormon Doctrine states that God was once a human man, and "He is now a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones" (250). As a matter of fact, "all gods first existed as spirits, came to an earth to receive bodies, and then, after having passed through a period of probation on the aforesaid earth, were advanced to the exalted position they now enjoy" (Hoekema 38). After death, a good Mormon man who has followed a few certain rules is catapulted to this same status and receives his own planet to populate and rule over (Fife 103). To receive this honor, a man must be "married for eternity" in the Mormon temple. This special marriage is binding after death as well as until it.

"Celestial" marriage, as this eternal marriage is often called, is essential for Mormon women.

—Without being celestially married to a holder of the priesthood, a woman cannot be "saved" (Green 154). —

Mary Ettie Smith, a Mormon woman who left the church and Utah in 1856, said that "women do not amount to much in themselves," and that women in those times were often celestially married to men they had no intention of ever living with, so that they could have a man who would be able to get them into heaven (Green 154).

https://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

 

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Festina
6 hours ago, OverSword said:

As long as it's consenting adults and nobody gets an extra spouse without the consent of others in the marriage I don't have a problem with it.  Gay marriage has opened my eyes about how other peoples marriages are not our business.

That’s nice but...You don’t understand Mormonism.  Read up.  I posted a short article and a book on the subject. 

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spartan max2
5 minutes ago, Festina said:

That’s nice but...You don’t understand Mormonism.  Read up.  I posted a short article and a book on the subject. 

I think it's hard for people to understand the emotional abuse, coercion, and social controls that happen in cult like religious groups. It really complicates the definition of "consent"

Edited by spartan max2
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Festina
Just now, spartan max2 said:

I think it's hard for people to understand the emotional abuse, coercion, and social controls that happen in cult like religious groups. It really complicate the definition of "consent"

Abrahamic Religions...the Mormons believe they are the Original Israelites [not something I aspire to] and also support blood atonement [ sacrificial murder] of those they deem “wicked”, family members included.  Revenge. 

The recent event in Mexico is very suspicious. 

It’s Friday, I have an extra “one” on hand and the wood stove be hot. 

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Festina
4 minutes ago, Festina said:

Abrahamic Religions...the Mormons believe they are the Original Israelites [not something I aspire to] and also support blood atonement [ sacrificial murder] of those they deem “wicked”, family members included.  Revenge. 

The recent event in Mexico is very suspicious. 

It’s Friday, I have an extra “one” on hand and the wood stove be hot. 

Book of Mormon...

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Desertrat56
37 minutes ago, Festina said:

 

MIND CONTROL

“Polygamous marriage is basically essential to Mormon theology. Mormon Doctrine states that God was once a human man, and "He is now a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones" (250). As a matter of fact, "all gods first existed as spirits, came to an earth to receive bodies, and then, after having passed through a period of probation on the aforesaid earth, were advanced to the exalted position they now enjoy" (Hoekema 38). After death, a good Mormon man who has followed a few certain rules is catapulted to this same status and receives his own planet to populate and rule over (Fife 103). To receive this honor, a man must be "married for eternity" in the Mormon temple. This special marriage is binding after death as well as until it.

"Celestial" marriage, as this eternal marriage is often called, is essential for Mormon women.

—Without being celestially married to a holder of the priesthood, a woman cannot be "saved" (Green 154). —

Mary Ettie Smith, a Mormon woman who left the church and Utah in 1856, said that "women do not amount to much in themselves," and that women in those times were often celestially married to men they had no intention of ever living with, so that they could have a man who would be able to get them into heaven (Green 154).

https://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

 

If that is their belief, how do they convince the women not marrying a man in the temple as a celestial wife to be a second or third or fourth etc. wife.  That makes no sense.  Why would a woman jeopardize her eternal life for that?

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susieice
50 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

No surprise there.  It only takes one wife to cause that.  Besides, Mormons believe that they're married forever.  I'd be depressed too if I thought a certain situation would last for eternity.

No body is looking at the fact that these fundamentalist Mormons have a huge beef with the Mormon Church because they were all excommunicated for what they did. They are not at all a part of the mainstream LDS church who does not yet allow polygamy. If the LDS church again sanctions polygamy, it will come with a lot of responsibility. I really do believe that. Rashore is right because the way people today live, a lot of this stuff was decriminalized in a lot of places and Mormons had nothing to do with it. This is all because it's Utah.

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OverSword
26 minutes ago, Festina said:

That’s nice but...You don’t understand Mormonism.  Read up.  I posted a short article and a book on the subject. 

Well they should not pass laws exclusively to satisfy their Mormon constituency.  If they are going to do this it has to have broader appeal or a court case will shut the entire thing down.

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susieice
6 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

If that is their belief, how do they convince the women not marrying a man in the temple as a celestial wife to be a second or third or fourth etc. wife.  That makes no sense.  Why would a woman jeopardize her eternal life for that?

Back when the church practiced polygamy, all marriages were temple marriages. I wasn't sure how that worked so I looked up Brigham Young again. He was married and sealed to all his wives in the temple. You have to remember that fundamentalist Mormons are not mainstream Mormons who do not practice polygamy as of right now. They were all excommunicated. I imagine if they choose to reinstate it, a second or third wife may be able to be married and sealed in the temple again. Not really sure but I'd think they'd follow church doctrine as it is written.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/brigham-young-and-polygamy_b_1792555

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Festina

At some point in time the matriarchal tribes gave place patriarchal tribes which were characterized by polygamy.  This system was marked by bestiality.  In this system women were in the condition of living merchandise.  

Aristotle bears witness to this when describing the attitude of the “well-to- classes” towards the question of women.  He says they kept legitimate wives to beget citizens according to the law —legal —, courtesans for pleasure and concubines for everyday use. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Israel

Serial marriages by the elites and others could also be characterized as polygamy in essence. 

“You shalt not covet your neighbors house, cattle slaves or wife/wives” .   All PROPERTY. 

 

 

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Festina
5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Well they should not pass laws exclusively to satisfy their Mormon constituency.  If they are going to do this it has to have broader appeal or a court case will shut the entire thing down.

And the US and Israel are allies with the Saudis.....big supporters of polygamy. 

 

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Festina

For the Mormons — it’s biblical.  Leading the way back to legal female slavery....see? 

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Festina
22 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

If that is their belief, how do they convince the women not marrying a man in the temple as a celestial wife to be a second or third or fourth etc. wife.  That makes no sense.  Why would a woman jeopardize her eternal life for that?

Not sure I understand.  Polygamy was outlawed.  The tenet now is that they must marry a Mormon man to be saved.  Going back to the deeper study of old Mormonism women were told that if they did not reproduce children they were damned.  Not sure if they teach this today, but they do teach having six children is a “ticket to ride”.   

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