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spartan max2

Has everyone asked God to reveal himself?

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Festina
4 minutes ago, WanderingFool0 said:

The interesting thing about slavery in Rome, I do seem to remember that the slavery often arose from financial debt and it hasn't been all that long in history since debtors prisons and indentured servitude were in place and I have heard more than a few bankers suggest they would like to see the return of debtor prisons now.

 

Do you have a link for ‘Bankers and debaters prisons’? 

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Hammerclaw
Just now, WanderingFool0 said:

The interesting thing about slavery in Rome, I do seem to remember that the slavery often arose from financial debt and it hasn't been all that long in history since debtors prisons and indentured servitude were in place and I have heard more than a few bankers suggest they would like to see the return of debtor prisons now.

 

Slavery was usually the result of war and defeat. It was "progressive" and an evolution from just "killing the b*******." It was actually possible to achieve one's freedom and rise through the ranks of Roman society and command Legions. Roman slavery wasn't racist--they were equal opportunity brutalizers. 

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WanderingFool0
9 minutes ago, Festina said:

Do you have a link for ‘Bankers and debaters prisons’? 

Sorry not off the top of my head. I remember it being few years ago there were a couple of news stories that floated around mostly talking about all the people with credit card and other debt and in them, they mentioned that many of the banks and companies were getting fed up and even wanted jail time for people with excessive debt that refused to pay and they wanted tightening of the bankruptcy laws. I will try to search out the specific articles later.

Edited by WanderingFool0
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freetoroam
2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Like @Hammerclaw said somewhere else, you can't offer proofs for philosophy or religious debates.  Think about it.  Both are more about feelings, belief and intangibles than anything physical so if it bothers you don't read these types of threads.

Wow easy DesertRAT.

The whole point is you can not offer proof because it is a belief based on feelings, hope, faith, wishes, upbringing and that  book. 

Now does that bother me? Nope. 

I live my live based on what I have,  what I can see and touch and what nature has to offer. 

If I tell a hermit water comes from the skies, I will back it up with proof. If the hermit tells me there is a god, I would expect him to also provide proof.

On that note, as the unbothered person I am, I am going to read some threads about aliens, ghosts and bigfoot. :yes:

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Desertrat56
Just now, freetoroam said:

Wow easy DesertRAT.

The whole point is you can not offer proof because it is a belief based on feelings, hope, faith, wishes, upbringing and that  book. 

Now does that bother me? Nope. 

I live my live based on what I have,  what I can see and touch and what nature has to offer. 

If I tell a hermit water comes from the skies, I will back it up with proof. If the hermit tells me there is a god, I would expect him to also provide proof.

On that note, as the unbothered person I am, I am going to read some threads about aliens, ghosts and bigfoot. :yes:

So you have an emotional belief about water coming from the skies equivalent to the hermit's belief in god?  No, you are comparing apples and oranges now.

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Scudbuster
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Or an evolved human strength which evolved to help us deal with the pain of self  aware consciousness.

 

 

I wouldn't say it is an "evolved" human strength, because apparently we have been imagining gods from many, many thousands of years ago.

It was always, "we don't understand, therefore god". Our situation is much different now, we have a vast and deep understanding of planetary sciences, psychics, math, electronics, micro biology, medicines etc.

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Stubbly_Dooright
2 hours ago, Sherapy said:
5 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I find this an interesting thought. Of course, it’s also a recurring topic that has been discussed educationally here and it has me reflecting on it a lot through the years. With Sheri’s post here, I have often experienced these rushes, and I feel, it’s not what ever god/goddesses/higher powers it might be, but what I feel it is and what it does for me. It’s me, and I do feel it’s a plausibility. 

I can also feel, there might be experiences and situations that might ‘explain it’, but to be truthful (at least to myself) it’s not the objective answer, only a subject one. It’s not one, I’m going on a public stage to push with. I don’t think, that would be right. 

It often has me wondering, how some who ‘encourage’ others to practice what ever religious ritual to ‘see’ a god, is only explaining later that it’s how one should see it in the non-literal sense, when the point of the direction was for a literal experience. Well, that’s how I see it as playing out. I often wonder, do these particular religious people realize, it’s the literal god they want to see, and they really don’t have the answer for? 

Kind of like reading about one great female actress/singer/comedienne who lost a child (dies as an adult) and sees various ‘experiences and signs’ as their lost child speaking to them, I can it as being hopeful, but it could also be seen as coincidental. I feel it’s a subjective thing. 

I think this thread’s question, (which I find a really good question to ask) is speaking in the literal point of view. 

Fricken amazing post, so good it brought tears to my eyes, Love ya Stubbs, 

Thanks for hearing me and not being threatened but open to and adding such wisdom to my perspective. Wow.

Love ya back! :wub: 

You’re welcome. :yes:  

As you have always wisely put it, there is so much to learn here. Why else would we all come here? I think, we all have to take into account what each of us says. It’s only to the point, when something doesn’t jar, and subjective think it doesn’t work with you. And that is the subjective, I point out again. With your words, I think they come from a very educated and experienced and caring individual. I think it’s worth a lot to reflect on it and see how it just might fit in one’s path, mine included. 

I think, one can see the varying degrees of our subjective spirituality, through the individual point of views, and the logic side of it too. I think, it just might make us all get closer to what each of our paths are. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

A Gethsemane moment song dedication For Non Blondes

When I need a good cry or....

I dedicate this to Jesus and all humans that have felt like this.
 

 

I often want to sing loudly like her with a “What’s going on?!?” ;)  

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Festina said:

We all see “God” constancy — we just don’t recognize it.  See that tree? 

If I may, and sorry for my broken record on this, but I don’t think I can recognize that tree as what you think I should. If we realize how there are different point of views, and varying spiritualized and Atheism’s, it’s understandable to not recognize a ‘tree’ as for something else then what it is. Point being, take me, who has a weird subjective belief now, but was raised secular, so there wasn’t anything to anchor that idea of God being recognizable in a tree. 

How would one know, everyone sees God constantly, when God is not seen in the objective sense by all? It’s all subjective, and subjective things are not recognizable to all in the same manner. To be in the most basic thinking, you see that tree, objectively it’s recognized as a ............ tree. Right? How was it made? Well, doesn’t that have to do with the nature of it, then an unseen, unprovable ‘force’ doing that? Unless there is a spot on the tree that says, “Made by God” (and, that can’t be proven 100% either), I don’t think I recognize it as what you think I would have or how you have. 

God, religions, and spirituality, for all of it’s consistency and it’s helpfulness, it’s not objective and consistent. I would think God would have understood this, and then show the world objectively how it can be recognized. Until then, I just see tree. 

Even chocolate................though, the taste is another matter of spiritual experience. ;)  :devil:  

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WanderingFool0
21 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

I wouldn't say it is an "evolved" human strength, because apparently we have been imagining gods from many, many thousands of years ago.

It was always, "we don't understand, therefore god". Our situation is much different now, we have a vast and deep understanding of planetary sciences, psychics, math, electronics, micro biology, medicines etc.

I remember, listening to Matthew Alper the author of "the God Part of the Brain", interviewed several times on Coast to Coast and listening to what had to say and why he thought the god part of the brain  existed and paraphrasing from memory; he thought it had evolved as a protection against or knowledge of our own mortality. I think that is possible, but every time I listened to him I always wondered if the god part of the brain is where our knowledge of our mortality arose in the first place and actually served both functions. Anyway he suggested it was a form of evolved protection at the least.

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Festina said:

More evidence of “God” and Nature.

 

This is very beautiful, well I find it a beautiful piece and such. But, for me and being raised with no anchor of what God is, I don’t see any evidence of God in this. How do you equate this beautiful piece, and lovely sounds as evidence of God?

To me, it’s evidence of hours and hours of practice. I might subjectively believe my spirituality, my higher power what have you, may have a hand in bringing it to my notice. And that would be an unproven bit of subjectivity on my part. 

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WanderingFool0
1 hour ago, Festina said:

Do you have a link for ‘Bankers and debaters prisons’? 

Not to derail the thread and discussion, but I did say I would post a link. I couldn't find the exact articles I read but I did find some clips and articles talking about "the return of debtors prisons"

https://business.financialpost.com/business-insider/the-return-of-debtors-prisons

https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/opinions/jones-debtors-prisons/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jailed-for-280-the-return-of-debtors-prisons/

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WanderingFool0
10 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

This is very beautiful, well I find it a beautiful piece and such. But, for me and being raised with no anchor of what God is, I don’t see any evidence of God in this. How do you equate this beautiful piece, and lovely sounds as evidence of God?

To me, it’s evidence of hours and hours of practice. I might subjectively believe my spirituality, my higher power what have you, may have a hand in bringing it to my notice. And that would be an unproven bit of subjectivity on my part. 

Well personally I could see it and music in general, along with our other unique traits, at the very least as being the Divine, manifesting in humans; the divine animals. Maybe not proof of God, but proof of some unique and special quality that separates us from the other animals, that one could give the label Divinity.

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Festina
9 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

If I may, and sorry for my broken record on this, but I don’t think I can recognize that tree as what you think I should. If we realize how there are different point of views, and varying spiritualized and Atheism’s, it’s understandable to not recognize a ‘tree’ as for something else then what it is. Point being, take me, who has a weird subjective belief now, but was raised secular, so there wasn’t anything to anchor that idea of God being recognizable in a tree. 

How would one know, everyone sees God constantly, when God is not seen in the objective sense by all? It’s all subjective, and subjective things are not recognizable to all in the same manner. To be in the most basic thinking, you see that tree, objectively it’s recognized as a ............ tree. Right? How was it made? Well, doesn’t that have to do with the nature of it, then an unseen, unprovable ‘force’ doing that? Unless there is a spot on the tree that says, “Made by God” (and, that can’t be proven 100% either), I don’t think I recognize it as what you think I would have or how you have. 

God, religions, and spirituality, for all of it’s consistency and it’s helpfulness, it’s not objective and consistent. I would think God would have understood this, and then show the world objectively how it can be recognized. Until then, I just see tree. 

Even chocolate................though, the taste is another matter of spiritual experience. ;)  :devil:  

You may, Always.  

For me “God” is not a person.....it is completely impersonal.  I, and others, see it as The Force Behind Nature, the Supreme First [masculine]  Principle force  — CAUSE. 

Nature, [ feminine principe] its out manifestation  — EFFECT. 

Learning how to control it is key.  Keep in mind there are both good and bad people who know how to do this, hence the Bible term — ‘For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.’

Hope this helps. 

 

 

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Festina
18 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

This is very beautiful, well I find it a beautiful piece and such. But, for me and being raised with no anchor of what God is, I don’t see any evidence of God in this. How do you equate this beautiful piece, and lovely sounds as evidence of God?

To me, it’s evidence of hours and hours of practice. I might subjectively believe my spirituality, my higher power what have you, may have a hand in bringing it to my notice. And that would be an unproven bit of subjectivity on my part. 

 

Nothing of value comes free.  The musicians are extraordinary ‘skilled’ workers, the composer of the piece has ‘talent’ and is a recipient the “God“ force for whatever reason I do not know.  Talent and skill are two entirely different things.  But they need each other to create the outmanifestion of the the final work as Ralph could not have produced the ‘effect’ on his own.   

 “GOD”  IS NOT A PERSON AND THERFORE CAN HAVE NO RELIGION. I don’t like using the word ‘god’. 

“God” = Cause, inspiration through nature to humans. 

Music = Effect, The out manifestation — This work.

BTW,  Ralph Von Williams was an avowed atheist / agnostic. Indeedy. :D

https://ffrf.org/news/day/dayitems/item/14882-ralph-vaughan-williams

And this from the Bible.....’For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike’.  I am in no way suggesting Von Williams was unjust or evil, what I am saying is that there are people who know how to control “nature” for good or evil purposes.  Abra-CAD-Abra. 

 

 

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Scudbuster
1 hour ago, WanderingFool0 said:

I remember, listening to Matthew Alper the author of "the God Part of the Brain", interviewed several times on Coast to Coast and listening to what had to say and why he thought the god part of the brain  existed and paraphrasing from memory; he thought it had evolved as a protection against or knowledge of our own mortality. I think that is possible, but every time I listened to him I always wondered if the god part of the brain is where our knowledge of our mortality arose in the first place and actually served both functions. Anyway he suggested it was a form of evolved protection at the least.

Yes, could be the case.

My point are these "desires" for a god all reside inside one's brain - the magical god never appears when asked to reveal himself physically, simply because he was never there to begin with.

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WanderingFool0
22 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

Yes, could be the case.

My point are these "desires" for a god all reside inside one's brain - the magical god never appears when asked to reveal himself physically, simply because he was never there to begin with.

Possibly. I don't personally agree with Alper's conclusions. I remember his premise arose from a study that was done where people's brains were scanned while praying or meditating and they isolated a region involved with that activity. I appreciate the study, but refute his conclusions, that because a part of the brain is responsible for regulating that activity, that there is no god just a function of the brain.

The reason I say that is, because using the same technology, I believe one could measure the brain while engaged in all sorts of activities and experiences and there may very well be other regions in the brain that regulate those activities and experiences, but does it render those activities as non-existent?

I appreciate your position, but I do not share it.

Edited by WanderingFool0
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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, freetoroam said:

On that note, as the unbothered person I am, I am going to read some threads about aliens, ghosts and bigfoot. :yes:

Excellent pull, as they all, for lack of "proof" require their own belief systems, as well.:tu:

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Festina
1 hour ago, WanderingFool0 said:

Well personally I could see it and music in general, along with our other unique traits, at the very least as being the Divine, manifesting in humans; the divine animals. Maybe not proof of God, but proof of some unique and special quality that separates us from the other animals, that one could give the label Divinity.

I prefer Divinity.  Henceforth is shall be thus.....if I can remember. 

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XenoFish
12 minutes ago, WanderingFool0 said:

Possibly. I don't personally agree with Alper's conclusions. I remember his premise arose from a study that was done where people's brains were scanned while praying or meditating and they isolated a region involved with that activity. I appreciate the study, but refute his conclusions, that because a part of the brain is responsible for regulating that activity, that there is no god just a function of the brain.

The reason I say that is, because using the same technology, I believe one could measure the brain while engaged in all sorts of activities and experiences and there may very well be other regions in the brain that regulate those activities and experiences, but does it render those activities as non-existent?

I appreciate your position, but I do not share it.

Isn't it often said that "god" is within? So anything that is associated with god, be it prayer, meditation, etc. Triggering a neurological response would be an effect of "The God Idea". No different that getting a butterfly feeling thinking about someone you love or feeling happy when remembering you kid's (if you have them) first laugh. 

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WanderingFool0
18 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't it often said that "god" is within? So anything that is associated with god, be it prayer, meditation, etc. Triggering a neurological response would be an effect of "The God Idea". No different that getting a butterfly feeling thinking about someone you love or feeling happy when remembering you kid's (if you have them) first laugh. 

Yes that is true, but really reading the study, it wasn't until the media got a hold of it and sensationalized it as "The god part of the brain", that god even got conflated with it. I seem to remember those who performed the study only claimed it was measuring the effect of meditation and prayer on the brain. Now I will even maybe agree that part could be the source of the god idea as well, but I would say there is probably a region of the brain for all activities and ideas.

Now, I am just speculating here, but I imagine one can scan peoples brain while eating an apple or thinking about an apple and you may find regions associated with those things. I think it is a stretch and bit of sensationalism, to label that part of the brain, "the apple part of the brain" and then conclude since there is a region associated with the apple, the apple doesn't really exist and it is just a brain process.

Edited by WanderingFool0
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XenoFish
1 minute ago, WanderingFool0 said:

Yes that is true, but really reading the study, it wasn't until the media got a hold of it and sensationalized it as "The god part of the brain", that god even got conflated with it. I seem to remember those who performed the study only claimed it was measuring the effect of meditation and prayer on the brain. Now I will even maybe agree that part could be the source of the god idea as well, but I would say there is probably a region of the brain for all activities and ideas.

Now, I am just speculating here, but I imagine one can scan peoples brain while eating an apple or thinking about an apple and you may find regions associated. I think it is a stretch and bit of sensationalism, to label that part of the brain, "the apple part of the brain" and then conclude since there is a region associated with the apple, the apple doesn't really exist it is just a brain process.

The effect would probably vary, due to how much of the pleasure center is being activated. Basically for some individuals religious thoughts do trigger the dopamine system. 

@Davros of Skaro a little assistance if you do not mind.

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Festina
3 hours ago, WanderingFool0 said:

Possibly. I don't personally agree with Alper's conclusions. I remember his premise arose from a study that was done where people's brains were scanned while praying or meditating and they isolated a region involved with that activity. I appreciate the study, but refute his conclusions, that because a part of the brain is responsible for regulating that activity, that there is no god just a function of the brain.

The reason I say that is, because using the same technology, I believe one could measure the brain while engaged in all sorts of activities and experiences and there may very well be other regions in the brain that regulate those activities and experiences, but does it render those activities as non-existent?

I appreciate your position, but I do not share it.

I don’t agree with him either.

THEY don’t want US to know of  the Power that We  ALL have.  For if we did the game would change and THEY would lose their  CONTROL, something they cling very tightly to. 

 

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, Festina said:

I don’t agree with him either.

THEY don’t want US to know of  the Power that We  ALL have.  For if we did the game would change and THEY would lose their  CONTROL, something they cling very tightly to. 

 

You mean programming your subconscious through a spiritual placebo? 

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Festina
12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You mean programming your subconscious through a spiritual placebo? 

I was just thinking about you.  

And here you are....

 

Edited by Festina

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