E -Elle Posted February 24, 2020 Author #26 Share Posted February 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Who also has names like Yahweh/Jehovah/El and developed from ancient Semite polytheism. Satan is never once called Lucifer in the Bible. What's your point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E -Elle Posted February 24, 2020 Author #27 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Just now, E -Elle said: What's your point? Do you mean you trust polytheists to make your religion? Or to base your life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 24, 2020 #28 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Just now, E -Elle said: What's your point? Read it again you might get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 24, 2020 #29 Share Posted February 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, E -Elle said: Do you mean you trust polytheists to make your religion? Or to base your life? How did you get that? I'm saying Judaism has roots in polytheism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 24, 2020 #30 Share Posted February 24, 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted February 24, 2020 #31 Share Posted February 24, 2020 4 hours ago, E -Elle said: Ok why do people comment when they don't believe in God? Isn't that just a waste of your supposed blasphemous better than God time? Dissing God is never a waste of time. 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted February 24, 2020 #32 Share Posted February 24, 2020 5 hours ago, E -Elle said: Yeah! Although people go about life as if God doesn't exist, yammering why they can't solve their gordian knot of problems with some bound from ignorance and denial- God. Submittance to the one higher power. So are you saying you have no problems or that your problems are solved magically by calling on your deity to solve them? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted February 24, 2020 #33 Share Posted February 24, 2020 5 hours ago, E -Elle said: 5 hours ago, joc said: Not everyone shares your belief. Is that informative or a half-step towards you and other pagans' long-sought-after not possible manifesto? This: 20 hours ago, rashore said: Welcome to UM What is it that you are debunking with this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted February 24, 2020 #34 Share Posted February 24, 2020 5 hours ago, E -Elle said: As many words as you use, a person informed as you are should not seek dark. Go investigate and expose the baby eating illuminati, not troll topics because you fear the creator. P.S. next time, just ask the speaker if they mean capital G or lower case g. I've seen kindergarteners do better. Did people get tired of "fighting" with you in the god forums or what? Why are you here if you think everyone who doesn't think like you do is a pagan? If you have all your explanations at hand why come to a forum called Unexplained Mysteries???? You don't present yourself like someone trying to get brownie points for "saving" pagans, you present yourself like someone looking for a fight. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rashore Posted February 25, 2020 #35 Share Posted February 25, 2020 My goodness, there's nothing wrong with being a pagan. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted February 25, 2020 #36 Share Posted February 25, 2020 6 hours ago, E -Elle said: As many words as you use, a person informed as you are should not seek dark. Go investigate and expose the baby eating illuminati, not troll topics because you fear the creator. P.S. next time, just ask the speaker if they mean capital G or lower case g. I've seen kindergarteners do better. Why are you angery, you should expect to be tested isn't that the path of a Christian. Currently you certainly don't have a Christian Attitude. Peace 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted February 25, 2020 #37 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Why do I feel like the OP is someone on an alternative account? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted February 25, 2020 #38 Share Posted February 25, 2020 29 minutes ago, rashore said: My goodness, there's nothing wrong with being a pagan. Most pagans are probably more mentally balanced that those who strictly adhere to a monotheistic religion. At least the few I've come across were. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted February 25, 2020 #39 Share Posted February 25, 2020 I usually debunk at 5 am then make breakfast, pack lunch then go to work. After work I do chores read here watch a show or two then rebunk til 5. jmccr8 3 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 25, 2020 #40 Share Posted February 25, 2020 7 hours ago, Tuco's Gas said: You heretic! How dare you! LOL Anyway, seriously, Rleyah: since I've only been here for a few weeks, I'm wondering if that type of religious fundie trolling like Elle is doing is common around here? Do you guys get peoples who just pop in and troll and trot out their angry dogma for a few days and then vamoose? Just curious. Usually there's not too many preachers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imaginarynumber1 Posted February 26, 2020 #41 Share Posted February 26, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 1:02 PM, E -Elle said: As many words as you use, a person informed as you are should not seek dark. Go investigate and expose the baby eating illuminati, not troll topics because you fear the creator. P.S. next time, just ask the speaker if they mean capital G or lower case g. I've seen kindergarteners do better. Baby Eating Illuminati! New band name! I called it! First single :"Kindergarten god" 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted February 28, 2020 #42 Share Posted February 28, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 4:10 PM, E -Elle said: So apparently people get confused about lucifer (never capitalize the name of the enemy, even if not literarily sound (!!!! Yes!!!!). Always capitalize God and any name of Him), it being still called as such, confusing it with (the) watchers, who was holding the flaming sword against in the garden's protection. But don't "ad-lib" opinion to be truth, gnostic or otherwise foolish. Whether you are happy to call satan lucifer, his former name, the bane should be called what it is, "adversary", the translation of satan. Obviously no one should fall to his idiot schemes no matter how "all" of it (and all is it) it is. You haven't read any Greek mythology I take it, so you don't know pre-Bible back story of Lucifer and why he called the Light bringer. To bad, it a good story of courage and sacrifice. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Border Collie Posted March 15, 2020 #43 Share Posted March 15, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 5:59 PM, E -Elle said: So they comment when they don't believe because the topic was not God based but meant to question the darkness into light? Wow. You've also blasphemed and, such wasted time. Blasphemy "the act of insulting or showing contempt of lack of reverence to a deity." God "a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe." If this being is indeed omnipotent, omniscient etc, it probably doesn't care about someone showing a lack of reverence. Blasphemy always struck me as an absurd accusation. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted March 15, 2020 #44 Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Border Collie said: Blasphemy "the act of insulting or showing contempt of lack of reverence to a deity." The real reason why blasphemy is so terrible and unforgivable is because blasphemy is "the act of insulting or showing contempt of lack of reverence to" yourself. Edited March 15, 2020 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 15, 2020 #45 Share Posted March 15, 2020 On 2/28/2020 at 12:28 PM, Grandpa Greenman said: You haven't read any Greek mythology I take it, so you don't know pre-Bible back story of Lucifer and why he called the Light bringer. To bad, it a good story of courage and sacrifice. "Lucifer" in the OT was a descriptive term of the King of Babylon. Not "Satan". The King James Bible is a translation of a translation in Latin written by somebody whose Hebrew sucked and that's how that brain fart happened. Then Cyrus Schofield twisted the King James even more and his bad ideas were adopted by most American Evangelicals. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 17, 2020 #46 Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) On 3/16/2020 at 3:29 AM, Piney said: "Lucifer" in the OT was a descriptive term of the King of Babylon. Not "Satan". The King James Bible is a translation of a translation in Latin written by somebody whose Hebrew sucked and that's how that brain fart happened. Then Cyrus Schofield twisted the King James even more and his bad ideas were adopted by most American Evangelicals. Actually the king of Tyre but the language titles and descriptions used in that passage go beyond describing a human and extend at least metaphorically to Satan/lucifer quote However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable. Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10). Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others. But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal destruction, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 29:17–21) and ultimately by Alexander the Great. https://www.gotquestions.org/King-of-Tyre.html quote In verse 15, the being is described as perfect in all his ways—until iniquity was found in him. This means that this being was created (not born) perfect, and remained so until he sinned. This statement could only apply to Adam, Eve, Satan, or demons, not to any earthly king. The king of Tyre was “shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin,” https://answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/satan/lucifer-and-sin/ Again, not my own belief, but a common, scholarly, biblical understanding of the writer's intent. Ignore all the above It relates to a different controversy https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_79.cfm Lucifer evolved as the name for satan because of the similarity between satan's original state as a glowing champion of god, and the description of a bright star or light The point is that (in the biblical narrative) satan was once a good/ glowing angel (Lucifer) but fell/rebelled, and became Satan (the adversary) He led a rebellion of one third of the angels against god's rule and led humans into temptation and their own fall (in the genesis creation story) He remains at loose on earth (parts of the of the old testament like job and the gospels) but will be defeated and killed (in the narrative of revelations) in the final conflict . To me it is a morality tale about the duality of human nature. Our fall from spiritual beings as we gained knowledge and our potential for spiritual "resurrection" and reconnecting to our spiritual side. We are beings of light and dark, and only we can choose which to follow and what to become. Edited March 17, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 17, 2020 #47 Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: Actually the king of Tyre but the language titles and descriptions used in that passage go beyond describing a human and extend at least metaphorically to Satan/lucifer "Lucifer" in Koine is a "adjective-adverb". Not a noun and "satan" wasn't a title/ name either but a descriptive term. But then again, nobody in your links knows Koine Greek....... 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: https://answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/satan/lucifer-and-sin/ Ken Ham??????Really????? Yeaaaahhhhh....... 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_79.cfm Stewart is about the same education level as Ham.......zero...... But he's got one thing right...which you got wrong Quote In the context of Isaiah, Helel is possibly used as proper name for the king of Babylon. Therefore his name would be translated as "day star," or "bright one." But what he got wrong is "helel" is a adjective. Edited March 17, 2020 by Piney Urantia is Dreck 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted March 17, 2020 #48 Share Posted March 17, 2020 The original Hebrew term sâtan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן) is a generic noun meaning "accuser" or "adversary",[7][8] which is used throughout the Hebrew Bible to refer to ordinary human adversaries,[9][8] as well as a specific supernatural entity.[9][8] The word is derived from a verb meaning primarily "to obstruct, oppose".[10] When it is used without the definite article (simply satan), the word can refer to any accuser,[9] but when it is used with the definite article (ha-satan), it usually refers specifically to the heavenly accuser: the satan.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan Lucifer (UK: /ˈluːsɪfər/ LOO-si-fər; US: /-sə-/; 'light-bringer', corresponding to the Greek name Ἑωσφόρος, 'dawn-bringer', for the same planet) is a Latin name for the planet Venus in its morning appearances and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer, and its associated stories of a fall from heaven, to Satan. Most modern scholarship regards these interpretations as questionable[citation needed] and translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name "Lucifer".[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jujo-jo Posted March 17, 2020 #49 Share Posted March 17, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 4:10 PM, E -Elle said: So apparently people get confused about lucifer (never capitalize the name of the enemy, even if not literarily sound (!!!! Yes!!!!). Always capitalize God and any name of Him), it being still called as such, confusing it with (the) watchers, who was holding the flaming sword against in the garden's protection. But don't "ad-lib" opinion to be truth, gnostic or otherwise foolish. Whether you are happy to call satan lucifer, his former name, the bane should be called what it is, "adversary", the translation of satan. Obviously no one should fall to his idiot schemes no matter how "all" of it (and all is it) it is. Welcome to the forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 17, 2020 #50 Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Piney said: "Lucifer" in Koine is a "adjective-adverb". Not a noun and "satan" wasn't a title/ name either but a descriptive term. But then again, nobody in your links knows Koine Greek....... Ken Ham??????Really????? Yeaaaahhhhh....... Stewart is about the same education level as Ham.......zero...... But he's got one thing right...which you got wrong But what he got wrong is "helel" is a adjective. Idont know the people from the references. I presented them as one pov. It is a view shared by many biblical scholars and some parts (churches) of christianity Seems you have a prejudice against those writers . Plus one can find and read similar explanations everywhere Basically it is a part o f the story (which is all a made up narrative, anyway) that lucifer was the brightest angel of god That he rebelled against god. That he then became satan.That he caused the fall of man People who deny this are generally trying to blame god for the evils of the world, when biblically it is clear that those evils come from the independent free-willed acts of lucifer/satan, and the temptation of humanity . (again a narrative to explain why and how humans are as we are, not an actual history of the world ) This is clear from reading the bible from genesis to revelations. Of course it is all a constructed storyline. However if you don't get the storyline and characters right, it is easy to misinterpret the lessons being told. The way i understand it s that Satan is an adjective which became a noun/name ie the adversary or deceiver Lucifer, likewise, is an adjective which became a noun/name The story of lucifer/satan and his fall is (probably) borrowed from earlier (babylonian) religious beliefs, which the jews incorporated into their theology during their captivity in Babylon, It is also connected to other stories about Venus, and its cosmology, from the biblical period ps ijust looked up Ken Ham. He is technically as well educated as i am (Degree and postgraduate diploma in science and education) When it comes to biblical studies and theology etc. I am not sure how much an education can help anyone. You read as widely as you can, gather facts and opinions, and form your own views. I dont believe his creationist views, but his description of the narrative of the bible fits the general understanding i have seen among biblical scholars. More significantly it is a perfect fit for an understanding of the total narrative of the bible as a teaching story The bible simply makes no sense as a story if you see satan as an agent of god rather than an adversary. The story of Lucifer explains the origins of satan, and how and why he behaved as he did . Edited March 17, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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