Piney Posted March 17, 2020 #51 Share Posted March 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Seems you have a prejudice against those writers . They aren't scholars who twist the Bible to fit their definition. 4 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Idont know the people from the references. I presented them as one pov. I do. Here, find me something from a actual translator https://www.academia.edu/ https://www.jstor.org/ 4 hours ago, Mr Walker said: The story of lucifer/satan and his fall is (probably) borrowed from earlier (babylonian) religious beliefs, which the jews incorporated into their theology during their captivity in Babylon, It is also connected to other stories about Venus, and its cosmology, from the biblical period Probably but the Hebrews didn't use either of those terms for the leader of the fallen angels. It was Samael who fell and he were bound forever and cannot affect humanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 17, 2020 #52 Share Posted March 17, 2020 10 hours ago, Piney said: They aren't scholars who twist the Bible to fit their definition. I do. Here, find me something from a actual translator https://www.academia.edu/ https://www.jstor.org/ Probably but the Hebrews didn't use either of those terms for the leader of the fallen angels. It was Samael who fell and he were bound forever and cannot affect humanity. No, the hebrews didnt use those terms, and had a slightly different concept of god, which, in itself, evolved over a couple of thousand of years, but the bible is the book of christian theology, and although it is just a story it should be read and interpreted as such a book. ie To explain christian beliefs, not any other. Judaism evolved from earlier religions. Christianity evolved from judaism, and continues to evolve today. You can't understand the christian story (and thus the cause of christian beliefs) unless you understand the nature of satan and god ( in that story,) and their relationship in the beginning, the middle, and the end of the storyline. The specific translation is actually irrelevant to the story and meaning, although generally there is a double intent, linking a human king to the heavenly counterpart, and using one to illustrate the nature of the other Both satan and lucifer are adjectives describing the personality of the same being (A celestial angel who fell from grace and rebelled against god, leading humanity into temptation; or so the story goes) but failing to tempt all the other worlds/people, under god's governance. Hence we became the lost sheep, or the prodigal son, and of specific interest to god and the angels (in the story) The descriptions became titles, and gradually became their names. Ps don't assume that because creationists are wrong, scientifically, that they can't be right in interpreting biblical texts. They have a strong interest in, and motivation for, seeking "the truth" Scholarly interpretations and translations are open to them, but to a believer the bible must be read in a spirit which allows one to find the meaning within it, not just as a piece of literature that can be deconstructed technically to find the meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted March 20, 2020 #53 Share Posted March 20, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 1:12 PM, E -Elle said: Do you mean you trust polytheists to make your religion? Or to base your life? ??? Abraham was a polytheist. Abe, the father of the Hebrew, Christian and Islamic religions. You trust him to make your religion? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted March 21, 2020 #54 Share Posted March 21, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 9:39 PM, Mr Walker said: Biblically satan WAS originally lucifer (The light bringer) The leader of all the angels, the most beautiful and charismatic He literally radiated light and power For reasons which are unclear he rebelled against god taking a full third of the angels with him (in the narrative) later he came to earth in the guise of a serpent or deceiver and tempted mankind He did the same for all the races of heaven, but mankind was the only one to be deceived (This is how the writers explained present human nature ) Its true that the story evolved over time and the last chapter has lucifer/satan being crushed and destroyed along with his angels and the humans who still followed him Its one of the things which distinguishes christian belief from judaism, and if you are christian it is part of christian theology If you are jewish you also dont believe christ was the son of god or had the abilty to save all of humanity. lucifer appears as the king of tyre in the OT (Ezekiel 28) however the language used strongly implies a double reference to both the king and to the angel lucifer quote As the prophet continues his description of “the king of Tyre” some things just don’t fit a human person: You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:14-15) https://sharperiron.org/article/mysterious-king-of-tyre copy However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable. Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10). https://www.gotquestions.org/King-of-Tyre.html You know what you do? It’s called Gish Gallop. Youre wrong, and what I said was right. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 21, 2020 #55 Share Posted March 21, 2020 29 minutes ago, Guyver said: Youre wrong, and what I said was right. I already completely tore this theological silliness up and he still put up a "non-argument" using garbage links. All I have to say is " Good Luck". I have him on ignore now..... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakonwick Posted March 21, 2020 #56 Share Posted March 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Guyver said: I've never understood some people's one track mind when it comes to religion. Honestly, it's disturbing how people can lock themselves in that box! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendy Demon Posted March 21, 2020 #57 Share Posted March 21, 2020 16 hours ago, drakonwick said: I've never understood some people's one track mind when it comes to religion. Honestly, it's disturbing how people can lock themselves in that box! Because it is comfortable. Religion, for the most part, offers a quick fix to everything, offers one liner explanations to life and the mysteries and challenges it entails. Think of it, instead of researching, learning and thinking about something and being encouraged to alter your view, a religion tells you that their explanations are written in stone, no thinking, questioning or skepticism is needed..or allowed. You are told what to think and fell and believe. I one time had an online discussion with someone who was quite knowledgeable about astronomy but this person was also highly religious and basically his attitude was something along the lines of "Yeah, I spent years in college learning about the universe, stars, planetary formations, etc but...the heck with it, god did it all". So basically this person wasted a greater portion of their life learning about something then basically throwing it all away because thinking was too hard and believing that a beardy-guy in the clouds waved his magic wand and now we have the endless cosmos...wow, how simple, eh? In short, being told/ordered what to think and believe is easy but learning what you can and formulating your own view even if some of it is wrong or a theory in the working can be scary even when everyone laughs at and rejects you for not blindly accepting mysticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 22, 2020 #58 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 11:17 AM, Guyver said: You know what you do? It’s called Gish Gallop. Youre wrong, and what I said was right. Its not me saying this I am just following standard biblical understanding and teaching (but appreciate different parts of christianity have difernt ideas) . Ps it is not gish gallop, it is just that there are SO MANY evidences that my point of view is correct that you might FIND them to be overwhelming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 22, 2020 #59 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) On 3/21/2020 at 11:50 AM, Piney said: I already completely tore this theological silliness up and he still put up a "non-argument" using garbage links. All I have to say is " Good Luck". I have him on ignore now..... You have a theological pov about the biblical narrative. I have a different one. Mine is well supported and documented by many academics and theologians including thise who don't believe a word of the bible to be literal truth but study the linguistics and analogies being used Yours may well be supported by other academics, with a different interpretation of the narrative It is not a matter of truth, but of deconstructing the narrative and working out what the original writers were talking about, and how this was later incorporated in later books of the new testament https://www.history.com/topics/folklore/history-of-the-devil https://harvest.org/know-god-article/the-origin-and-fall-of-the-devil/ Lucifer (“star of the morning”) became Satan (“accuser”) when he fell to the earth. Jesus, speaking of this event, said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven” (Luke 10:18). Edited March 22, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp Posted March 28, 2020 #60 Share Posted March 28, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 4:15 PM, Guyver said: Lucifer is . . ." It is a made up name by bible translators . . ." In the original Hebrew, which is available for free online in the closest to original text....Lucifer does not appear. Wrong: In some translations the Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is retained. It is, however, merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lelʹ, “shining one.” Heh·lelʹ is not a name or a title but, rather, a term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp Posted March 28, 2020 #61 Share Posted March 28, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 3:48 PM, sci-nerd said: God is totally useless. Clay talking back to the potter. LoL . . . LoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted March 28, 2020 #62 Share Posted March 28, 2020 7 hours ago, larryp said: Clay talking back to the potter. LoL . . . LoL Glad you're having fun with your delusions 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp Posted March 28, 2020 #63 Share Posted March 28, 2020 ^^^ Soon we will see who is delusional!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted March 29, 2020 #64 Share Posted March 29, 2020 9 hours ago, larryp said: ^^^ Soon we will see who is delusional!! Hi Larryp The first time I heard that phrase was several thousands of years ago by a member of the world's oldest profession. jmccr8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted April 1, 2020 #65 Share Posted April 1, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 12:57 AM, larryp said: Wrong: In some translations the Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is retained. It is, however, merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lelʹ, “shining one.” Heh·lelʹ is not a name or a title but, rather, a term. Like I already said, you can check the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah- available for free online and see I’m right. ”Lucifer” aka “Bringer of Light” is a Latin word. That language was not yet written at the time of the original Hebrew. Check the facts for yourself. I have no skin in the game because I don’t believe Satan exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 1, 2020 #66 Share Posted April 1, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 3:57 AM, larryp said: Wrong: In some translations the Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is retained. It is, however, merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lelʹ, “shining one.” Heh·lelʹ is not a name or a title but, rather, a term. It's a adjective and Isaiah was describing the King of Babylon. On 3/22/2020 at 7:48 AM, Mr Walker said: https://harvest.org/know-god-article/the-origin-and-fall-of-the-devil/ ........ very academic....... .. On 3/22/2020 at 7:48 AM, Mr Walker said: I have a different one. Mine is well supported and documented by many academics and theologians You've only linked half baked apologists. Not academics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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