docyabut2 Posted February 25, 2020 #1 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Mat 24:16 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Mat 24:17 - Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Mat 24:18 - Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 Mat 24:19 - And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 Mat 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 Mat 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 Mat 24:22 - And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/1/s_953001 doesn't it say Jesus will return it when Judaea is attacked ? the mountainous southern part of the region of Israel? there should no flesh be saved Edited February 25, 2020 by docyabut2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted February 25, 2020 #2 Share Posted February 25, 2020 28 minutes ago, docyabut2 said: doesn't it say Jesus will return it when Judaea is attacked ? the mountainous southern part of the region of Israel? there should no flesh be saved Matthew has been edited, probably 3 times, with something added everytime. Who knows what "Jesus" really said. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted February 25, 2020 #3 Share Posted February 25, 2020 32 minutes ago, Tuco's Gas said: Indeed. None of the gospel writers ever met Jesus. Matt was written a full 30 years after jc died. Mark was the first gospel written, but the bible editors put Matt first because he mentioned all the OT alleged prophecies tied to JC. Plus he traced his lineage back to Abe. Matt was written about AD 70-100 probably by a Zoroastrian convert. That's where all the dualistic stuff comes in and why the Magi were added. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 25, 2020 #4 Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, docyabut2 said: doesn't it say Jesus will return it when Judaea is attacked ? That isn't my understanding of these verses. I've always thought they referred to the coming of the antichrist. When he is revealed at the midpoint of the Tribulation, 3.5 years after the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and "many". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 25, 2020 #5 Share Posted February 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Tuco's Gas said: Are you sure he wasn't sooner? I always thought... Paul: AD 40-50 Mark: AD 50 Matt: AD 65-75 Luke: AD 80 John: AD 95-100 I'm goin on memory though and am nobody's bible scholar, so will defer to your expertise if my timeline is skewed. Cheers. Not all those are gospels. There's only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted February 25, 2020 #6 Share Posted February 25, 2020 8 hours ago, Tuco's Gas said: Matt: AD 65-75 That's close and the estimate of some scholars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted February 25, 2020 #7 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) I still think the Abomination of Desolation in this verse is an after-the-fact reference to the time when the Second Temple was destroyed and replaced by a Pagan one. Also Israel, including Judea has been attacked multiple times in history, and especially in the last 70 years. Edited February 25, 2020 by Orphalesion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 25, 2020 Author #8 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) Matthew 24 New Living Translation (NLT) Jesus Speaks about the Future 24 As Jesus was leaving the Temple grounds, his disciples pointed out to him the various Temple buildings. 2 But he responded, “Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!” 3 Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?[a]” 4 Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, 5 for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. 7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. 8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come. 9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.[b] 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations[c] will hear it; and then the end will come15 “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration[d] standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!) 16 “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. 17 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. 18 A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat. 19 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. 20 And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.. That s my question of Jesus`s return Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?[a]” Edited February 25, 2020 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted February 25, 2020 #9 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) On respectable dates, Peter Kirby's are well-regarded and free. http://earlychristianwritings.com/ Each entry has a link to a dedicated page. Often, there is a brief explanation of where the date range comes from. So, of the books mentioned here: Paul's epistles (the generally accepted 7): 50-60 CE reasonable-quality-fake Paul: Colossians 50-80; Ephesians & 2 Thessalonians 80-100 cheesy-fake Paul, the Pastorals: 100-150 Mark: 65-80 Matthew: 80-100 Luke: 80-130 John: 90-120 On the "end of the world" stuff: It appears Paul thought that the end would occur in his own lifetime. This was apparently based on the idea that Jesus' was the first in a general resurrection of the dead + transformation of those still living when the trumpet sounds. To hear Paul tell it, the appearance of Jesus would have been great fun. Paul doesn't quote Jesus for any of this (as Paul was apt not to do); it sounds like Paul worked this out all by himself. The earliest extant bummer end-of-the-world discourse is Mark chapter 13 generally. That's placed in Jesus' mouth, and it sounds like no fun at all, even for those who'd signed up with Team Jesus. Probably what changed is the utter failure of Paul's Jesus to show up, and the Jewish War (whether Mark knew the outcome because he was writing afterward or simply did the math while writing in the late 60's probably makes no difference). Edited February 25, 2020 by eight bits 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 25, 2020 Author #10 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, eight bits said: On respectable dates, Peter Kirby's are well-regarded and free. http://earlychristianwritings.com/ Each entry has a link to a dedicated page. Often, there is a brief explanation of where the date range comes from. So, of the books mentioned here: Paul's epistles (the generally accepted 7): 50-60 CE reasonable-quality-fake Paul: Colossians 50-80; Ephesians & 2 Thessalonians 80-100 cheesy-fake Paul, the Pastorals: 100-150 Mark: 65-80 Matthew: 80-100 Luke: 80-130 John: 90-120 On the "end of the world" stuff: It appears Paul thought that the end would occur in his own lifetime. This was apparently based on the idea that Jesus' was the first in a general resurrection of the dead + transformation of those still living when the trumpet sounds. To hear Paul tell it, the appearance of Jesus would have been great fun. Paul doesn't quote Jesus for any of this (as Paul was apt not to do); it sounds like Paul worked this out all by himself. The earliest extant bummer end-of-the-world discourse is Mark chapter 13 generally. That's placed in Jesus' mouth, and it sounds like no fun at all, even for those who'd signed up with Team Jesus. Probably what changed is the utter failure of Paul's Jesus to show up, and the Jewish War (whether Mark knew the outcome because he was writing afterward or simply did the math while writing in the late 60's probably makes no difference). I don`n believe Paul knew anything about what Jesus had said, when he never met Jesus. Paul killed the Christians and only heard of Jesus`s trail and survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 25, 2020 #11 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) Many years ago a stranger told me ‘Paul’ was the historical Jesus. I did not give his story any credence and at the time and dismissed his thesis as foolish, but now I do give him notice. I wish I could see him again. Seems I was the Fool. Now I listen more and speak less. Who was ‘Paul’ [Pol] of Tarsus? https://enigmose.com/apollonius_is_paul.html https://enigmose.com/apollonius_jesus.html Edited February 25, 2020 by Festina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 25, 2020 Author #12 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Festina said: Many years ago a stranger told me ‘Paul’ was the historical Jesus. I did not give his story any credence and at the time and dismissed his thesis as foolish, but now I do give him notice. I wish I could see him again. Seems I was the Fool. Now I listen more and speak less. Who was ‘Paul’ [Pol] of Tarsus? https://enigmose.com/apollonius_is_paul.html https://enigmose.com/apollonius_jesus.html Apollonius of Tyana depicted on a coin. Born c.15 AD Tyana, Cappadocia, Anatolia (Roman Empire) Died c. 100 AD Orator, philosopher, mathematician The hypothesis that Apollonius was actually the apostle Paul could not be true Edited February 25, 2020 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 25, 2020 #13 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, docyabut2 said: Apollonius of Tyana depicted on a coin. Born c.15 AD Tyana, Cappadocia, Anatolia (Roman Empire) Died c. 100 AD Orator, philosopher, mathematician The hypothesis that Apollonius was actually the apostle Paul could not be true According to who? Constantine and Eusebius? The Popes? Edited February 25, 2020 by Festina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 25, 2020 #14 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Some say he never died....I like this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 25, 2020 Author #15 Share Posted February 25, 2020 55 minutes ago, Festina said: According to who? Constantine and Eusebius? The Popes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 25, 2020 #16 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, docyabut2 said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana I read it often, it’s changes often. Wikipedia is good for some things...this is not one of them. However, they do Yahweh fairly well.p but they do not go deep enough. Read carefully....”promoted and proclaimed” as “the creator and the one true god.” Yahweh[Notes 1] was the national god of the kingdoms of Israel (Samaria) and Judah.[3] His origins reach at least to the early Iron Age and apparently to the Late Bronze,[4] and in the oldest biblical literature he is a storm-and-warrior deity[5] who leads the heavenly armyagainst Israel's enemies.[6] At that time the Israelites worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal,[7] but in time El and Yahweh became conflated,[8] El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone,[9] and other gods and goddesses such as Baal and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwistic religion.[10] From the 9th into the 6th centuries BCE the Yahwistic religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage as Yahweh became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[11] and over time the royal court and Temple in Jerusalem promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[12][13] By the end of the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the one true God of all the world.[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh Edited February 25, 2020 by Festina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 26, 2020 Author #17 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Festina said: I read it often, it’s changes often. Wikipedia is good for some things...this is not one of them. However, they do Yahweh fairly well.p but they do not go deep enough. Read carefully....”promoted and proclaimed” as “the creator and the one true god.” Yahweh[Notes 1] was the national god of the kingdoms of Israel (Samaria) and Judah.[3] His origins reach at least to the early Iron Age and apparently to the Late Bronze,[4] and in the oldest biblical literature he is a storm-and-warrior deity[5] who leads the heavenly armyagainst Israel's enemies.[6] At that time the Israelites worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal,[7] but in time El and Yahweh became conflated,[8] El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone,[9] and other gods and goddesses such as Baal and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwistic religion.[10] From the 9th into the 6th centuries BCE the Yahwistic religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage as Yahweh became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[11] and over time the royal court and Temple in Jerusalem promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[12][13] By the end of the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the one true God of all the world.[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh http://www.heptune.com/Akhnaten.html a lot of people believe Akhenaten was Moses in a unseen God Yahweh http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/ex-314-what-does-yahweh-mean/ Edited February 26, 2020 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 26, 2020 #18 Share Posted February 26, 2020 8 hours ago, docyabut2 said: I don`n believe Paul knew anything about what Jesus had said, when he never met Jesus. Paul killed the Christians and only heard of Jesus`s trail and survival. Saul/Paul MET Christ on the road to Damascus. That's when he became a follower. At that time, he was the only follower who was charged with going to the Gentiles with the good news. All the rest of Jesus' disciples were told to take that news to the Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 26, 2020 #19 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Just now, and then said: Saul/Paul MET Christ on the road to Damascus. That's when he became a follower. At that time, he was the only follower who was charged with going to the Gentiles with the good news. All the rest of Jesus' disciples were told to take that news to the Jews. If you'd like to hear some teaching on the difference between Christ's outreach and message to His people, the Jews, versus His message to Gentiles, this guy is very thorough in explaining it where even someone like me can understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 26, 2020 Author #20 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, and then said: Saul/Paul MET Christ on the road to Damascus. That's when he became a follower. At that time, he was the only follower who was charged with going to the Gentiles with the good news. All the rest of Jesus' disciples were told to take that news to the Jews. Jesus was only a vision of Paul`s . “Yahweh First, God is communicating his unknowability. God is basically saying to Moses, “You’re asking who I am… But, I simply am. There is no way for me to explain any further.” However, we get no impression from the text that Moses’ question was wrong or that God was upset with him. He is simply giving him his name, which Moses uses throughout the rest of the book. Edited February 26, 2020 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 26, 2020 #21 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, docyabut2 said: http://www.heptune.com/Akhnaten.html a lot of people believe Akhenaten was Moses in a unseen God Yahweh http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/ex-314-what-does-yahweh-mean/ And some like Manetho believed Osarseph was Moses. Akhenaten and Amenhotep are the same person. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osarseph http://ggreenberg.tripod.com/articles/bmh_osarseph_imsbl97.pdf Very little information is available on Manethos — Josephus appears to have been working from an original of his History of Egypt, but like so many works It has been ‘Lost’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho Against Apion, A Polemic by Flavius Josephus http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/apion1.html http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/apion2.html This may keep you busy for awhile, as it did me. Enjoy the ride. It’s a doozy... Edited February 26, 2020 by Festina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 26, 2020 #22 Share Posted February 26, 2020 16 hours ago, Orphalesion said: I still think the Abomination of Desolation in this verse is an after-the-fact reference to the time when the Second Temple was destroyed and replaced by a Pagan one. Also Israel, including Judea has been attacked multiple times in history, and especially in the last 70 years. Yes it was. Confusion is created by cherrypicking verses from different Biblical books to make a new narrative. That would be like me picking different sentences from multiple Harry Potter books to prove that Dumbledore was actually a bus driver in Leeds, England. https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_Desolation 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted February 26, 2020 #23 Share Posted February 26, 2020 On 2/25/2020 at 2:35 AM, docyabut2 said: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Mat 24:16 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Mat 24:17 - Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Mat 24:18 - Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 Mat 24:19 - And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 Mat 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 Mat 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 Mat 24:22 - And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/1/s_953001 doesn't it say Jesus will return it when Judaea is attacked ? the mountainous southern part of the region of Israel? there should no flesh be saved That all sounds like a flood to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 26, 2020 Author #24 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: That all sounds like a flood to me. Jesus said Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. sounds to me, war https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=NLT Edited February 26, 2020 by docyabut2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted February 26, 2020 Author #25 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=NLT Edited February 26, 2020 by docyabut2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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