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Tuco's Gas

Neurologist Experiences Heaven during NDE

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Tuco's Gas

In a bit of good news and "I told you so" bragging rights for believers, former atheist and Harvard Neurosurgeon Dr Eben Alexander claims he is now a believer! This, after glimpsing Heaven--replete with Angels and puffy pink clouds--during his own personal Near Death Experience.

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eben-alexander-harvard-neurosurgeon-proof-of-heaven-afterlife-coma_n_1951475

Edited by Tuco's Gas
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and then
1 hour ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Oh look... more anecdotal evidence of nothing.

Oh look, another science worshipper who is so insecure he can't even allow an article about the beliefs of others unless they match his own...

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Imaginarynumber1
1 minute ago, and then said:

Oh look, another science worshipper who is so insecure he can't even allow an article about the beliefs of others unless they match his own...

I don't care about you, nor your beliefs, nor those of doctor anecdote. So insult away. 

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papageorge1

This was a 2012 article. I've heard him much more recently and he hasn't changed his tune. I believe the Near Death Experience occurs when death-like trauma occurs and the astral body separates from the physical and experiences the higher astral plane.

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MissJatti

Must of taken some purple pills

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XenoFish
7 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Oh look... more anecdotal evidence of nothing.

Another NDE thread that will end up like the rest. 

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XenoFish
6 hours ago, and then said:

Oh look, another science worshipper who is so insecure he can't even allow an article about the beliefs of others unless they match his own...

Could it be that you're afraid to doubt that heaven doesn't exist, so you, like others "attack" non-believers? 

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Imaginarynumber1
9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Could it be that you're afraid to doubt that heaven doesn't exist, so you, like others "attack" non-believers? 

Image result for hammer nail gif

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joc

 

Thousands of people...tens of thousands of people have experienced 'something' as a result of NDE.

Because of the high volume of personal anecdote... a logical thinking person should conclude that there is a correlation between bizarre hallucinations and NDE.  It's been widely discussed as to what causes these hallucinations.  

An illogical thinking person concludes that the Consciousness is immortal and separate from the brain and body.  The Evidence is The Experience.  The Experience is Hallucination.  Therefore...the Evidence is Hallucination.  

The Conclusion:  Many people hallucinate upon regaining consciousness and remember it as being real.  

 

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psyche101
9 hours ago, Tuco's Gas said:

In a bit of good news and "I told you so" bragging rights for believers, former atheist and Harvard Neurosurgeon Dr Eben Alexander claims he is now a believer! This, after glimpsing Heaven--replete with Angels and puffy pink clouds--during his own personal Near Death Experience.

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eben-alexander-harvard-neurosurgeon-proof-of-heaven-afterlife-coma_n_1951475

Now?

He wrote a book about it in 2012. You're a bit slow. 

I've got this great bridge for sale bro.....

Steven Novella and Sean Carroll didn't find his anecdotes impressive, nor does he seem to have actually died. He seems pretty unimpressive to me.

 

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Helen of Annoy
2 hours ago, joc said:

 

Thousands of people...tens of thousands of people have experienced 'something' as a result of NDE.

Because of the high volume of personal anecdote... a logical thinking person should conclude that there is a correlation between bizarre hallucinations and NDE.  It's been widely discussed as to what causes these hallucinations.  

An illogical thinking person concludes that the Consciousness is immortal and separate from the brain and body.  The Evidence is The Experience.  The Experience is Hallucination.  Therefore...the Evidence is Hallucination.  

The Conclusion:  Many people hallucinate upon regaining consciousness and remember it as being real.  

 

And in order to avoid explaining how some of the people who experienced NDE have ended up knowing things they couldn't possibly know, just don't mention it and you've successfully proven that NDEs are hallucinations :lol:  

Sure, they could be hallucinations - seen from this world's point of view. But their extraordinary qualities lead a truly objective observer into conclusion that there might be more about the way human mind functions - and where - than it's currently explained.  

 

The thread is already another extension of the usual religious war (with atheism being represented in fully religious manner while any other religion, free thinkers included, shows a lot of tolerance regarding NDEs, allowing possibilities of explanations that are not necessarily within particular church teaching). 

Religious atheists seem to be more snarky, so psychologically speaking, they seem more frustrated. Probably because anecdotal as it is, the evidence of NDE is not associated with any area, religion, disorder or anything else - it occurs without obvious pattern. It's much harder to 'debunk' it then, than a particular religion. 

 

Are there frauds tying to profit from lying they had NDE? Certainly. Does it make the phenomenon any less profound for those who experienced it, or any less interesting for objective observers? Certainly not. 

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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XenoFish
6 hours ago, MissJatti said:

Must of taken some purple pills

3e243e46ed353f5db8826fe38b8bffb6.gif

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GlitterRose

I don't know why people must look to others to bolster what they believe. 

There's either something after this or there isn't.

Anyone who claims to know is still here, so they probably don't know any better than the rest of us.

At least I'm honest with myself. I hope there's more, but I also know it could just be wishful thinking. 

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joc
2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And in order to avoid explaining how some of the people who experienced NDE have ended up knowing things they couldn't possibly know, just don't mention it and you've successfully proven that NDEs are hallucinations

You don't even know that that's actually true...you've just read stories from people you don't know.  How Quaint...and very Non-Scientific. :)

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joc
2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

. Probably because anecdotal as it is, the evidence of NDE is not associated with any area, religion, disorder or anything else - it occurs without obvious pattern. It's much harder to 'debunk' it then, than a particular religion. 

Actually, it is this randomness that makes it super easy to debunk.  

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Helen of Annoy
19 minutes ago, joc said:

You don't even know that that's actually true...you've just read stories from people you don't know.  How Quaint...and very Non-Scientific. :)

Of course I don't know which of testimonies from total strangers are true. Some are near impossible to 'prove' true or false - in the sense of objective proving, not your religious rejection of anything non-strictly-material. Others are very intriguing, since the fact that there was information that couldn't have been obtained by usual ways was confirmed by impartial witnesses. Surgeon, for example, confirming that he has unique gesture patient saw while being 'out'. 

Not everyone is a liar or profiteer. That's why NDE was, is and will be subject of official studies, thank multi-confessional congregation of possible gods, because religious rejection of a phenomenon is not scientific at all.    

 

17 minutes ago, joc said:

Actually, it is this randomness that makes it super easy to debunk.  

I'd say it's universality rather than randomness. It clearly does prove the phenomenon is not limited to or caused by a particular religion or other cultural influence. 

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papageorge1
2 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

I don't know why people must look to others to bolster what they believe. 

 

An unbiased rational analysis is one way we learn is the reason 'why'. And maybe they are not looking to bolster but understand the human experience.

And where should our 'beliefs' come from if not the fair consideration of everything.

Edited by papageorge1

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joc
3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Of course I don't know which of testimonies from total strangers are true. Some are near impossible to 'prove' true or false - in the sense of objective proving, not your religious rejection of anything non-strictly-material. Others are very intriguing, since the fact that there was information that couldn't have been obtained by usual ways was confirmed by impartial witnesses. Surgeon, for example, confirming that he has unique gesture patient saw while being 'out'. 

Not everyone is a liar or profiteer. That's why NDE was, is and will be subject of official studies, thank multi-confessional congregation of possible gods, because religious rejection of a phenomenon is not scientific at all.    

 

I'd say it's universality rather than randomness. It clearly does prove the phenomenon is not limited to or caused by a particular religion or other cultural influence. 

Absolutely correct you are my dear!  Furthermore, it clearly does prove the phenomenon is linked to the hallucinations and 'feelings' of Euphoria caused by the brain...under the right set of circumstances...becoming conscious again after it has been deprived of oxygen.

 

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Helen of Annoy
8 minutes ago, joc said:

Absolutely correct you are my dear!  Furthermore, it clearly does prove the phenomenon is linked to the hallucinations and 'feelings' of Euphoria caused by the brain...under the right set of circumstances...becoming conscious again after it has been deprived of oxygen.

 

We obviously do have access to the same information and come to different conclusions. 

I'm fine with that. 

But I would like to point out that realistically, if NDEs were mere hallucinations with physiological origin, they'd be much less organized, much less meaningful, certainly not clairvoyant and they would be much more common. Near everyone who was near death would vaguely remember them and nearly no one would benefit from them. NDEs are precisely the opposite.  

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joc
Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

But I would like to point out that realistically, if NDEs were mere hallucinations with physiological origin, they'd be much less organized, much less meaningful, certainly not clairvoyant and they would be much more common. Near everyone who was near death would vaguely remember them and nearly no one would benefit from them. NDEs are precisely the opposite.  

And I would like to point out that...your perspective has no bearing on what is realistic or not.  You are extrapolating a lot of 'feeling' how things should be into your perspective.  Why would they be more common when most people who come that close to death don't become conscious again?  Why conclude nearly everyone would remember them vaguely?  The most vivid dreams are the one's we are having when we actually wake up abruptly from REM.

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Helen of Annoy
25 minutes ago, joc said:

And I would like to point out that...your perspective has no bearing on what is realistic or not.  You are extrapolating a lot of 'feeling' how things should be into your perspective.  Why would they be more common when most people who come that close to death don't become conscious again?  Why conclude nearly everyone would remember them vaguely?  The most vivid dreams are the one's we are having when we actually wake up abruptly from REM.

So I must point out that it's not objective of you to assume your perspective is more credible than mine.

In fact, when I'm taking all factors in consideration, allowing possibilities, I'm following the scientific way of thinking, while you've got your personal opinion apparently cast in stone, which is classic religious approach. That's not how we got to the point of having computers, you know. 

Of course I'm paying great attention to intuition and feelings in general. People who claim they're not emotional are living in denial. Not to mention no one would ever arrive to any progress without a good hunch. To a classic sceptic, a hunch is the sum of existing yet not consciously acknowledged information, to less rigid people it's a sign of the order in the Universe. Very shortly put. 

Why would physiologically caused hallucination be more common than an spiritual event? You really asked me that? Because when you've got a process bound to happen in a body in a certain situation, it happens. Duh. Exceptions are rare (some people don't produce insulin as they should, to name the first thing that comes to mind) to impossible (no one avoids very specific reaction to arsenic).

Everyone near asphyxiation would report a hallucination similar to NDE, if it was an ordinary clinical feature of asphyxiation. Yet they don't. While people who were injured and went very suddenly in the other side direction - no time for proper de-oxygenation -  do report NDEs. 

Some situations are known to induce hallucinations: severe fever, hypothermia etc. But -

Ordinary hallucinations in non-mentally insane people usually are only vaguely remembered, much like (majority of) dreams. You too probably had a nasty fever once, that made you hallucinate a bit. But you didn't have any particular insight in anything due to that, and it was more-less a clump of nonsense. 

Speaking of dreams, they are often forgotten or not particularly impressive. But when people have significant dreams (that literally come true or are later interpreted in useful manner), they remember them much more vividly. 

It's the significance that makes dreams immensely more than random fire of neurons and it's the significance that makes NDEs incurably interesting. 

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joc
1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

So I must point out that it's not objective of you to assume your perspective is more credible than mine.

I'm not 'assuming' anything.    My perspective IS more credible than yours!  No brag just fact!

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hetrodoxly

Until we know what consciousness is nothing can be dispelled.

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