Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
19_Kilo

Neurologist Experiences Heaven during NDE

173 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Tiggs
On 3/5/2020 at 12:38 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

For me personally, NDEs are not that important in the context of dilemma if there's life after death or not - both believes have their advantages and traps - they're important because some of them did show that it's possible to access verifiable information in ways that are not currently accepted as definitely proven possible.

Are there any that involve information outside the room where near-death occurred?

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Helen of Annoy
34 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Can people have personally profound experiences from experiences that are utter fantasy?  Yes, and that is firmly in evidence, not mere opinion.

Yes, people can have personally profound experiences even from pure fantasy 'events'. 

But can you correctly guess unique gesture of your surgeon you couldn't have possibly seen?

Guess someone close to you died in an accident while you were NDEing?  Etc. 

A number of NDEs came with these interesting real-life information, not because such info was important by its contents, it seems to be important only because it occurs. It's almost like a joke, a tease, when you think you can reduce the whole phenomenon to personal inventory of life that is ending - there it is, a little detail that shows connection to the existence outside one's head. 

 

To me personally, that occasional 'clairvoyant' aspect of NDE is not crucial, personality changes are. Though they're easier to explain away, as results of trauma (psychological and physical). Little clairvoyant details are there just to make people think about the whole phenomenon, since we are not so fast to ponder about the significance of someone's attitude to the existence, but we will show interest in superficial 'tricks' with unobtainable info. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I wouldn't say they are very clearly structured, just that many have similarities.  The 'meaningful' part is confounded by the fact that for most, no mental experience would be necessary for it to achieve that; being 'near death' no matter what the reason and experiences involved is likely going to be meaningful all on its own.  

Many have similarities, yes, but I see them structured because there's the way out of body, experiencing new environment, new self, meeting others (persons close to the almost deceased as well as archetypes and/or religious figures), interacting with them, possibly receiving certain information (wanted or needed), then being told you have to return.

So I meant that structured in the sense of not being a typical random dream, which is usually rich in symbols but chaotic in story line. 

Yes, absolutely, nearly dying is meaningful to sane people, with or without NDE. I don't believe NDE has to be remembered in order to affect a person. And of course, I do not attempt to imply personality changes cannot happen without NDE, or without near-dying.

Personality changes are a reason I personally find to be interesting and valid indication that NDEs are significant, but they truly are very easy to explain as completely expected consequences of totally mundane event. What makes them so interesting to me personally is that people tend to change after a shocking event, but they relatively soon go back to their old self. It seems (yes, it is all anecdotal and near impossible to objectively measure) that NDEs changes are lasting. 

So it's my own opinion that while NDEs might easily be a 'hallucination' by material standards, they not rarely contain details that show the connection, an influence, that definitely is outside the person's brain. I prefer to put them together with dreams, though, since dreams are often significant too and contain details that cannot be explained by current understanding of the mind. 

 

Aw, too many words... I apologize. I'm just too tired to go back and condense it.    

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Helen of Annoy
1 minute ago, Tiggs said:

Are there any that involve information outside the room where near-death occurred?

Yes. Outside the room and outside the time. 

One of my countrymen described that angle of his experience like this: I asked 'What about my mother? And instead of getting an answer what my mother thinks now, how she will handle news of my death, I knew all about her, all she ever did and ever thought and you bet it wasn't what I had in mind.' :D 

One other, young woman who almost died in childbirth, knew what her daughter will look like when she grows up (both were certain to die, but both survived). 

Of course, there is no objective proof in that. One has to be willing to have a certain amount of trust in people who related their experiences.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Desertrat56
9 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

Are there any that involve information outside the room where near-death occurred?

Yes, there are.  I read about a woman who saw something on the roof of the hospital and reported it after she was revived.  Someone went up to look and found what she described.   I don't remember the article that was in.  Even so all of it is anecdotal unless you can find the actual people who were there and found the item on the roof verifying that the patient could not have known about it.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tiggs
36 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yes, there are.  I read about a woman who saw something on the roof of the hospital and reported it after she was revived.  Someone went up to look and found what she described.   I don't remember the article that was in.  Even so all of it is anecdotal unless you can find the actual people who were there and found the item on the roof verifying that the patient could not have known about it.

I'd imagine most NDE's occur outside lab conditions -- so anecdotal would be pretty standard.

Obviously -- named witnesses would make a much stronger case. 

In general -- information outside the room sidesteps the whole issue of whether the patient was still processing their environment in some fashion, during the event. 

That said -- I'm wary of objects in places as evidence. 

If they're mundane objects -- then it wouldn't be out of place to imagine them there.

If they're unusual -- then that heightens the chance the patient may have overheard someone else mention it. In this instance -- a nurse on a cigarette break, for example.

I suspect that contemporary events -- such as hearing a conversation in a distant room -- would probably make a stronger case.
 

42 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Yes. Outside the room and outside the time. 

One of my countrymen described that angle of his experience like this: I asked 'What about my mother? And instead of getting an answer what my mother thinks now, how she will handle news of my death, I knew all about her, all she ever did and ever thought and you bet it wasn't what I had in mind.' :D 

One other, young woman who almost died in childbirth, knew what her daughter will look like when she grows up (both were certain to die, but both survived). 

Of course, there is no objective proof in that. One has to be willing to have a certain amount of trust in people who related their experiences.  

Slightly wary of family things, too. For the daughter's appearance -- most of our looks are based on our genetic heritage.

For the sudden deep knowledge of his mother -- I know that I've definitely forgotten huge chunks of my childhood. I can only imagine what information about my parents is stored somewhere deep in my brain.

Perhaps there are more to those cases, though. Willing to take a look if you have links.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kittens Are Jerks

I'm in the midst of studing for finals and too exhausted to summarise these articles, but will leave them here for anyone interested in reading them.

The Death of "Near Death": Even If Heaven Is Real, You Aren t Seeing It

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-death-of-near-death-even-if-heaven-is-real-you-arent-seeing-it/

Peace of Mind: Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/peace-of-mind-near-death/

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ChrLzs
4 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Of course, there is no objective proof in that.

Given that an awful lot of folks claim NDE's or have 'died' and then been revived, etc over the centuries, and particularly now with all our cameras and surveillance... why is that?  Science tends to reject stuff for which there is nothing but subjective tales.  Rightly.

Thing is, we love stories, they can be very comforting, or can just be for ego purposes - ie there's plenty of motivation, and of course these stories don't really hurt anyone... so I reject the oft-stated "what reason do they have..". 

4 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

One has to be willing to have a certain amount of trust in people who related their experiences.  

Why?  Several of my extended family members (and me too) are well known for their exaggerations and tall tales, although with multiple tellings, they end up believing it themselves... so they ain't even lying.  So no, I don't trust such stories, and that is not necessarily an insult to the story tellers.  It's just human nature.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

A number of NDEs came with these interesting real-life information, not because such info was important by its contents, it seems to be important only because it occurs.

The problem I have with all that is ...who knows any of these people.  Not you.  Not whoever else is continually stating that what they said is valid.  How could anyone know and believe someone who they have no clue who they even are?  Faith I guess.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Timothy
On 3/8/2020 at 8:04 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

Why do you have to attempt insulting me?

Am I insulting you for your beliefs, that are in my opinion, based on too blind acceptance of one particular strain of scientific theories? 

(I said one particular strain because contrary to belief popular in this forum, scientific community is not into business of 'debunking' the intuitive human beliefs, they're simply into finding explanations and uses within the material realm. Possible spiritual matters are not within the scope of science - at least not in our time.)    

 

But if you wish to hand out offensive labels, it's much more stupid to expect people will disregard their personal experience and accept materialist excuse that since NDE doesn't fit into materialist view of the existence, it must be a hallucination.

If a 'hallucination' is profoundly changing one's personality and even offers information that is not obtainable by materialist means, then this 'hallucination' from material world angle, is obviously a lot more from a lot more realistic angle. 

 

I would really prefer if you could stop trying to take your frustrations out on me and either keep this conversation on basic decency level, either go insult the one who told you spouting insults on the Internet is scientifically speaking not a sign of a disorder.   

You attempted to insult me first. 

I’m just playing your game. 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Timothy
On 3/7/2020 at 10:45 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

So you don't understand. All right, I was hoping but not too much. 

 

This is what I’m referring to. 
 

You started the childish insults, and I can be much more harsh in my critique if you want to run the gambit?

  • Thanks 2
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish
13 minutes ago, Timothy said:

This is what I’m referring to. 
 

You started the childish insults, and I can be much more harsh in my critique if you want to run the gambit?

Helen tends to be very passive-aggressive. 

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LeonKennedy
29 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Helen tends to be very passive-aggressive. 

And you tend to act very cavalier about basically everything. 

 

She's just stating her opinions on the topic, can you stick to it instead of projecting?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
XenoFish
1 minute ago, LeonKennedy said:

And you tend to act very cavalier about basically everything. 

 

She's just stating her opinions on the topic, can you stick to it instead of projecting?

You just love to ride my coattails don't you.

Maybe less is more, right, Leon? Right? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Yes, people can have personally profound experiences even from pure fantasy 'events'. 

But can you correctly guess unique gesture of your surgeon you couldn't have possibly seen?

Guess someone close to you died in an accident while you were NDEing?  Etc. 

A number of NDEs came with these interesting real-life information, not because such info was important by its contents, it seems to be important only because it occurs. It's almost like a joke, a tease, when you think you can reduce the whole phenomenon to personal inventory of life that is ending - there it is, a little detail that shows connection to the existence outside one's head. 

 

To me personally, that occasional 'clairvoyant' aspect of NDE is not crucial, personality changes are. Though they're easier to explain away, as results of trauma (psychological and physical). Little clairvoyant details are there just to make people think about the whole phenomenon, since we are not so fast to ponder about the significance of someone's attitude to the existence, but we will show interest in superficial 'tricks' with unobtainable info. 

 

 

Many have similarities, yes, but I see them structured because there's the way out of body, experiencing new environment, new self, meeting others (persons close to the almost deceased as well as archetypes and/or religious figures), interacting with them, possibly receiving certain information (wanted or needed), then being told you have to return.

So I meant that structured in the sense of not being a typical random dream, which is usually rich in symbols but chaotic in story line. 

Yes, absolutely, nearly dying is meaningful to sane people, with or without NDE. I don't believe NDE has to be remembered in order to affect a person. And of course, I do not attempt to imply personality changes cannot happen without NDE, or without near-dying.

Personality changes are a reason I personally find to be interesting and valid indication that NDEs are significant, but they truly are very easy to explain as completely expected consequences of totally mundane event. What makes them so interesting to me personally is that people tend to change after a shocking event, but they relatively soon go back to their old self. It seems (yes, it is all anecdotal and near impossible to objectively measure) that NDEs changes are lasting. 

So it's my own opinion that while NDEs might easily be a 'hallucination' by material standards, they not rarely contain details that show the connection, an influence, that definitely is outside the person's brain. I prefer to put them together with dreams, though, since dreams are often significant too and contain details that cannot be explained by current understanding of the mind. 

 

Aw, too many words... I apologize. I'm just too tired to go back and condense it.    

For me, the problem with the NDE claim in and of itself unless we are told about the personal experience by the person we would not know about it otherwise as there is no way to observe, test or verify the clams for the rest of us.

A personal experience becomes an observation with the ability to test, and verify the claim.

I think NDE’s are most likely hallucinations from the side effects of drugs given during a coma or surgery. 
 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Helen of Annoy
19 hours ago, Tiggs said:

 

Slightly wary of family things, too. For the daughter's appearance -- most of our looks are based on our genetic heritage.

For the sudden deep knowledge of his mother -- I know that I've definitely forgotten huge chunks of my childhood. I can only imagine what information about my parents is stored somewhere deep in my brain.

Perhaps there are more to those cases, though. Willing to take a look if you have links.

Sadly, no links to Croatian cases. Not only the testimonies are not particularly hard evidence, but I'm also retelling them using my memory only :D (The mother case - he got insight in literally everything she did or even just thought about, including time before he was born. Anything he wanted to know while being there was available in the ridiculously complete scope. The daughter case - yes, but this was surprisingly accurate and the child is also different than her siblings, psychologically, which certainly can and does happen, but fits quite intriguingly in the story. If you ask me, of course.) 

Since it's settled, that I'm not into scientifically proving the nature of NDEs, I'm giving my opinion and retelling pure anecdotes (which should make the chronic defenders of strict science relax, since I'm not proving them anything) may I offer you few more of those? :D 

Two people I knew personally, who had negative NDEs, were leaving particularly strange impression, they were literally making people feel unexplained unease just by being themselves. I still wonder if they brought something with them from the darker side, or their characters were such, that they made their NDEs negative and others can simply read the extreme personality traits just by small gestures, facial expressions etc. 

On the other hand, a person very close to me had classic, positive NDE (only it wasn't called like that back then) and came back so transformed her family had absolutely no doubt that the event was real, spiritual and very significant.  

It can be explained away, certainly, if we're going to see it from the official angle, but personally... knowing them, remembering the feeling you couldn't ignore when around them and their stories... nope, personally, I can't accept the usual explanations. 

 

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

For me, the problem with the NDE claim in and of itself unless we are told about the personal experience by the person we would not know about it otherwise as there is no way to observe, test or verify the clams for the rest of us.

A personal experience becomes an observation with the ability to test, and verify the claim.

I think NDE’s are most likely hallucinations from the side effects of drugs given during a coma or surgery. 
 

 

 

Absolutely, yes - as I said before, there's no reason why would anyone take anyone's word about anything seriously, if it doesn't come with evidence and evidence for NDEs consists of information that can be written off as coincidence and personality changes that are highly subjective matter. 

As you can see above, I've got personal reasons (and more of those that I didn't mention in this post) for being interested in the phenomenon and taking it seriously. I must also repeat that it's the personal significance of the NDEs for the one who experienced it, that make them so interesting - even if they are really physiologically similar to dreams. If that is so, NDEs are psychologically the ultimate dream one can have. 

Why would some people dream their ultimate dream in such clear, meaningful manner, at the moment when their brains are shutting down? Physiologically, it should make that dream more incoherent than the usual dreams. 

 

All in all, who knows. (I mean, I know - for myself - but it's one of those things that are meant to be so personal, I guess.)

 

Thank you both so much for having patience with me, my personal views and my English :D    

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moonman

He didn't actually die though - a coma dream isn't an NDE.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Sadly, no links to Croatian cases. Not only the testimonies are not particularly hard evidence, but I'm also retelling them using my memory only :D (The mother case - he got insight in literally everything she did or even just thought about, including time before he was born. Anything he wanted to know while being there was available in the ridiculously complete scope. The daughter case - yes, but this was surprisingly accurate and the child is also different than her siblings, psychologically, which certainly can and does happen, but fits quite intriguingly in the story. If you ask me, of course.) 

Since it's settled, that I'm not into scientifically proving the nature of NDEs, I'm giving my opinion and retelling pure anecdotes (which should make the chronic defenders of strict science relax, since I'm not proving them anything) may I offer you few more of those? :D 

Two people I knew personally, who had negative NDEs, were leaving particularly strange impression, they were literally making people feel unexplained unease just by being themselves. I still wonder if they brought something with them from the darker side, or their characters were such, that they made their NDEs negative and others can simply read the extreme personality traits just by small gestures, facial expressions etc. 

On the other hand, a person very close to me had classic, positive NDE (only it wasn't called like that back then) and came back so transformed her family had absolutely no doubt that the event was real, spiritual and very significant.  

It can be explained away, certainly, if we're going to see it from the official angle, but personally... knowing them, remembering the feeling you couldn't ignore when around them and their stories... nope, personally, I can't accept the usual explanations. 

 

Absolutely, yes - as I said before, there's no reason why would anyone take anyone's word about anything seriously, if it doesn't come with evidence and evidence for NDEs consists of information that can be written off as coincidence and personality changes that are highly subjective matter. 

As you can see above, I've got personal reasons (and more of those that I didn't mention in this post) for being interested in the phenomenon and taking it seriously. I must also repeat that it's the personal significance of the NDEs for the one who experienced it, that make them so interesting - even if they are really physiologically similar to dreams. If that is so, NDEs are psychologically the ultimate dream one can have. 

Why would some people dream their ultimate dream in such clear, meaningful manner, at the moment when their brains are shutting down? Physiologically, it should make that dream more incoherent than the usual dreams. 

 

All in all, who knows. (I mean, I know - for myself - but it's one of those things that are meant to be so personal, I guess.)

 

Thank you both so much for having patience with me, my personal views and my English :D    

You are bringing in a good point too, those type of experiences are meaningful for the person who has them and may do them good. I have had personal experiences that I cannot prove to anyone else, and I wouldn’t even try to waste my time trying to convince someone of my subjective reality that only has life if I tell them about it, yet these things matter to me and made my life better in some area, but wouldn't matter to anyone else. Great post, very fun to read. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LeonKennedy
7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

You just love to ride my coattails don't you.

Maybe less is more, right, Leon? Right? 

Yea less is more, but evidently you have selective memory if not you're just downright inane, which I suppose might not be all your fault. I understand not everyone is on the same level and that's okay too little mola mola.;)

 

And also, you have no coattails to ride. Stumped me there.:tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tiggs
6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Sadly, no links to Croatian cases. Not only the testimonies are not particularly hard evidence, but I'm also retelling them using my memory only :D (The mother case - he got insight in literally everything she did or even just thought about, including time before he was born. Anything he wanted to know while being there was available in the ridiculously complete scope. The daughter case - yes, but this was surprisingly accurate and the child is also different than her siblings, psychologically, which certainly can and does happen, but fits quite intriguingly in the story. If you ask me, of course.) 

Since it's settled, that I'm not into scientifically proving the nature of NDEs, I'm giving my opinion and retelling pure anecdotes (which should make the chronic defenders of strict science relax, since I'm not proving them anything) may I offer you few more of those? :D 

Two people I knew personally, who had negative NDEs, were leaving particularly strange impression, they were literally making people feel unexplained unease just by being themselves. I still wonder if they brought something with them from the darker side, or their characters were such, that they made their NDEs negative and others can simply read the extreme personality traits just by small gestures, facial expressions etc. 

On the other hand, a person very close to me had classic, positive NDE (only it wasn't called like that back then) and came back so transformed her family had absolutely no doubt that the event was real, spiritual and very significant.  

It can be explained away, certainly, if we're going to see it from the official angle, but personally... knowing them, remembering the feeling you couldn't ignore when around them and their stories... nope, personally, I can't accept the usual explanations. 

I can understand that. Stories are always more compelling when they're told by someone you know and trust.

I suspect that coming back from near-death would be a life changing experience for almost everyone -- like being gifted with a second chance at life.

Couple that with an NDE, and I can see why it would be transformative.


I don't really expect to see any scientific proof for NDE's. Outside of the occasional movie plot, I suspect there's not many scientists running experiments on near-death experiences.

But I am curious to see what the best documented cases for NDE's look like, these days.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
On 3/10/2020 at 6:53 AM, Tiggs said:

Are there any that involve information outside the room where near-death occurred?

I believe i have read of (quite)  a number of such instances over the last few decades  but its very hard to scientifically verify them 

These are quite interesting, and well described, ones 

https://www.near-death.com/science/research/out-of-body-experiences.html

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
11 hours ago, Tiggs said:

I don't really expect to see any scientific proof for NDE's. Outside of the occasional movie plot, I suspect there's not many scientists running experiments on near-death experiences.

But I am curious to see what the best documented cases for NDE's look like, these days.

The entire claim to fame of NDEs seems to be...They saw or heard something that they couldn't possibly have unless they were there.  Conclusion:  They were there.  Conclusion of them being there:  Consciousness exists outside of the body...therefore...consciousness is not of the body and brain...it is a separate entity from that...all by itself, it exists, without the body and the brain.

Other than that aspect...I have read nothing telling about any of them.  Anecdotes of that genre only.   While those stories are intriguing...how does anyone even begin to prove something like that?  

I would like to see some research studies of people who have had NDEs with regard to similar biological circumstances they all had in common.  I.e.  length of no oxygen to brain, etc.  One would think there would be a biological pattern that would develop. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ChrLzs
8 hours ago, joc said:

Other than that aspect...I have read nothing telling about any of them.  Anecdotes of that genre only.   While those stories are intriguing...how does anyone even begin to prove something like that?

Just on that point, I am pretty sure that I have seen a couple of reports where a doctor/anaesthetist/whatever 'verified' that the person reported something they saw or heard while 'dead', or in a state where they should not have been able to see or hear.  But invariably of course, these stories come from someone who recovered, so the claim they couldn't have seen/heard something becomes very weak indeed. There are many cases where it has been shown that people who should be 'out' still have enough brain activity for sensory input..  And a doctor isn't going to remember exactly what they said while in earshot of the patient.  And of course from the doctor's point of view, being empathetic and supportive (and perhaps even patronising) by verifying the patient's story, is likely to help their mental state and assist on the road to recovery.

I've not seen any stories that were compellingly documented/verified, and as I pointed out above, with the amount of surveillance that exists today, plus doctors notes, etc... there really should be if the effect was real.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
On 3/10/2020 at 1:56 PM, moonman said:

He didn't actually die though - a coma dream isn't an NDE.

Not to be ahem...cavalier...but...If anyone who experienced an NDE actually died...we wouldn't know they had experienced anything.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.