+Hammerclaw Posted March 14, 2020 #526 Share Posted March 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dejarma said: I feel others get my point- I'm not talking history here: one does not need religion to be nice & caring to others- to be nice & caring to others is innate in humans. Being religious has nothing to do with feelings for each others well being-- or do you think this is BS? If you're having trouble understanding this point then I've no idea what else to say to you, Sir It is the only thing your one track mind is capable of. Don't strain yourself. Conversationally, you're a dead end; you've worn a rut in the ground so deep you can't see over the edge. You just say variations of the same old thing, over and over again. I was talking history, but that's way beyond the likes of you. You're like a mean little boy, standing outside a beautiful church, throwing rocks through stained glass windows. Don't bother responding; no one is listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted March 14, 2020 #527 Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said: It is the only thing your one track mind is capable of i don't get that- what does that mean? what track am i on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #528 Share Posted March 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Dejarma said: you may be right- let's find out: can you put forward an example? The question I asked was= Now, name one good thing that religion has done for me?= an atheist I said an example makes no sense, and is impractical, unless it works in, (is illustrative of ) what would happen in real life. I gave lots of good things religion has done for you, in general as a human being, such as put a value on your life beyond its material worth. It also gave you you a day off each week (if you have saturday or sunday off work ) This is based on the biblical principle of resting on the sabbath. As i pointed out, without knowing your circumstances, i can't specifically say how religion might have helped you For some people it prevented their mother aborting them. it prevented man taking sexual advantage of women, by mandating marriage before sex. It supports the principle of family, which is the cornerstone of every human society. Maybe you have been helped by one of many religious initiated or organised groups like st johns ambulance or red cross. Almost every western law, from property rights, the rights of people in marriages, to laws on civil behaviours, originated as religious laws based on religious principles, because wherever humans live the y base laws on values, and values are belief- based constructs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #529 Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Dejarma said: well you know best.. All I know for a fact is I'm human...if I were a Christian <for example> & hear screams from a burning car; the last thing I'll feel the need to do (the spur of the moment) is shout through the smoke & flames asking: 'are you Christian' ? It's innate in all humans to help each other-- religion has fek all to do with it! It is no more innate for a human to help another than for them to hurt them or take advantage of them. Those are learned values and behaviours dependent on family /social conditioning Where a religion teaches values of altruism compassion love and sharing. it will produce those results in a society .Where it spreads hate, division, fear etc., it will breed those outcomes ps I couldn't help thinking of this conclusion to your example. If the person in the car yells back " Yes. I am." you can reply; "Oh. That's ok then. I don't need to risk myself saving you, because god will do it ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted March 14, 2020 #530 Share Posted March 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: It also gave you you a day off each week (if you have saturday or sunday off work ) This is based on the biblical principle of resting on the sabbath. yeah you're right, it did-- i luv people like you... oh thank god for saturday & sunday... if i had my way i'd only work 3 days a week= but that's just an atheist thing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted March 14, 2020 #531 Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr Walker said: It is no more innate for a human to help another than for them to hurt them or take advantage of them. Those are learned values and behaviours dependent on family /social conditioning no need for god then.. i rest my case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #532 Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Piney said: What's the difference? Both are merely a means to control people. imo both are a way for people to liberate themselves. A religious person cannot be controlled by anything other than their beliefs (which is a form of self control) A person who understands politics ad participates init cannot be controlled by it Most humans are controlled by their desires, lusts, greed, envy, addiction, fears etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #533 Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Dejarma said: the most ridiculous analogy I've heard! Golf really exists Claw me ol' mate, dont it!!... Every religion/ belief knows that as fact. Are you trying to be clever? Oh carry on- this will be fun nup It is not usually gods which help people. it is peoples' beliefs in those gods, which confer benefits to them. If you don't believe, you won't/cant, get the physical benefits of belief. it is a matter of basic psychology 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #534 Share Posted March 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dejarma said: humans do good/ bad things!! Religion has nothing to do with it! A man rapes/ tortures/ murders 3 small children/ he's an atheist= so what!?! This monster also has a mustache- so what!? What does that have to do with it!? edit to add: people do good things because they are human- not because they're religious Beliefs exercise a powerful control over humans. The right beliefs exercise a powerful positive effect The wrong beliefs a powerful negative one This has nothing to do with the literal truth of either belief, but on what happens when the beliefs are acted upon. People only do good or bad things when the y are motivated to do so, and when they think they can get away with a bad thing. Good deeds can be done for selfish reason or from pure altruism Bad deeds are generally always selfish in nature. Beliefs provide the motivators for positive and negative behaviours. Edited March 14, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #535 Share Posted March 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Piney said: Power attracts the corruptible. It's magnetic to pathological personalities. That's why those who should have it. Don't want it. yep,i read an interesting novel once, where all politicians and leaders were chosen by lottery from the adult population. With almost no exceptions you could not refuse this position You were paid whatever you earned before entering govt and your expenses were all paid. Every 3 or 4 years every member was removed and another batch chosen by lottery plus of course it is an increasing, if still limited, political model in real life. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-09-06/what-if-politicians-were-chosen-at-random-by-lottery Edited March 14, 2020 by Mr Walker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #536 Share Posted March 14, 2020 15 minutes ago, Dejarma said: no need for god then.. i rest my case No need for god, but a need for values ethics moralities and the beliefs which underpin them. God is a handy psychological tool to enforce behaviours and add authority to laws /rules. Show a person a reminder of god ( or of a policeman) and they become more moral and law abiding in surveys, questionnaires, and experiments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #537 Share Posted March 14, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Dejarma said: yeah you're right, it did-- i luv people like you... oh thank god for saturday & sunday... if i had my way i'd only work 3 days a week= but that's just an atheist thing not entirely. For the last 10 years or so of teaching i decreased my hours from full time (5 days) to 80% (4 days) to 50% 2.5 days per week It had many benefits, but meant i had to reduce my material outgoings a little and be a bit more careful with money.In many countries with sliding income tax scales you gain a lot from less tax which helps compensate total pay Eg my example was this. Full time i earned 100000 dollars a year but took home about 70000 dollars. 30000 tax On 80000 dollars i paid about 20000 tax, taking home 60000. on 50000 dollars i took home about 42000 dollars and paid 8000 tax so in real working hours, for example, I earned about 70000 dollars for 50 hours work per week 60000 for about 40 hours a week and 40000 for about 24 hours per week (there was proportionally less preparation marking etc as i reduced class room time ) Teaching has about 40 working weeks per year Edited March 14, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 14, 2020 #538 Share Posted March 14, 2020 (edited) dejarma i will put it in a few brutal words of truth. In scientific/ material terms you are worth 160 dollars as a a body You could be worth more as a wage slave. ie a worker bee for the system is worth about 130000 dollars per year (I bet you dont get paid tha t worth That gives the average western worker a cumulative value to the economy of 45 million over their life time (but there will also be growing costs attached to that life eg pensions medical benefits etc. ) BUT luckily we are valued in spiritual religious terms at far more than this, For example the australian govt spends almost 20 billion dollars a year just on aged care because of the religious spiritual value we attach to a human life. Rather than have us put down or allow us to be euthanized, our govt gives my wife and I about 50000 a year in pension and health care funding, plus free doctors, hospital visits, medical procedures and medicines. Eg i spent an hour with a cardiac specialist last thursday and will have a "cardio version" at the hospital on the 26th of this month that includes full anaesthesia and stopping then restarting my heart, ALL for free. Ive had operations and hospital stays costing over 200,000 dollars, all paid for by govt/taxes (including of course my own, ) over the years No one would pay those costs/taxes for other people unless there was seen to be a spiritual (non material) value on a human life. it doesn't work, using purely material, economic, or scientific values Edited March 14, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 14, 2020 #539 Share Posted March 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Mr Walker said: imo both are a way for people to liberate themselves. A religious person cannot be controlled by anything other than their beliefs (which is a form of self control) A person who understands politics ad participates init cannot be controlled by it Most humans are controlled by their desires, lusts, greed, envy, addiction, fears etc. Which are 3 of the places organized religion prey. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 14, 2020 #540 Share Posted March 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Mr Walker said: yep,i read an interesting novel once, where all politicians and leaders were chosen by lottery from the adult population. With almost no exceptions you could not refuse this position You were paid whatever you earned before entering govt and your expenses were all paid. Every 3 or 4 years every member was removed and another batch chosen by lottery Frank Herbert used that idea in the last 2 Dune novels. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted March 14, 2020 #541 Share Posted March 14, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said: It's not wrong. It is a completely valid statement. All scientific knowledge will always be the same. Elements. Gravity. Math. They all lead to "Science." The way nature is observed and described. I have to disagree with that... Many scientific theories and conclusions have changed through the years and centuries? an example that springs to mind (because I saw it discussed on the dicovery channel the other day) is the idea that space was considered to be empty...and now is not considered to be empty at all. It is now known that interstellar space andintergalactic space is not empty. Scientific "knowledge" is often updated? Even the basic forces of nature have evolved throughout the formation development and history of the Universe. and... Hitler was a Christian and referred to his God in numerous speeches. The belt buckles of many German soldiers were stamped with the phrase "God with Us"...(in German) Edited March 14, 2020 by lightly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlookerofmayhem Posted March 14, 2020 #542 Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 hour ago, lightly said: I have to disagree with that... Many scientific theories and conclusions have changed through the years and centuries? A poor choice of words on my part. What I was trying to say was more about the fundamentals of nature and reality. Not necessarily the knowledge of it. The "laws of nature" have always been there. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted March 14, 2020 #543 Share Posted March 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, onlookerofmayhem said: A poor choice of words on my part. What I was trying to say was more about the fundamentals of nature and reality. Not necessarily the knowledge of it. The "laws of nature" have always been there. That's true. They've always been there. But there are more fundamentals of reality, than just the laws of nature. Karma for example, which is just one of the many "laws of the spirit" which have always been, and always will be, there. Edited March 14, 2020 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted March 15, 2020 #544 Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Scudbuster said: Really now, just keep ignoring science and continue believing in the lunacy of the bible....not exactly the "good book" it's purported to be: Again this is just propoganda based on ignorance. Complete and utter drivel of the lowest order. But I do love memes... Now, these are not REALLY representative of most atheists, but they fit right in with your collection of ignorance. I'll go ahead and, regretfully, post one when you do. Edited March 15, 2020 by DieChecker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneWithAnE Posted March 15, 2020 #545 Share Posted March 15, 2020 I really feel like people should stop bashing Christians and religious people. It's incredibly ignorant. For the following reasons: If you actually knew any religious people you would realize that virtually all of them (unless in some sort of weird cult or sect) accept science, and many are even scientists or scholars themselves. Christians have regular jobs and lead regular lives just like athiests do. Also, most scientists and pioneering minds in early science were Christian (and Muslim). And many were actually driven by their faith to seek further understanding of life and this planet and their surroundings. So everybody actually owes a lot to the minds of religious people who have gone before us. Also, most religious people are currently living peaceful lives. So all of this talk of you're muderers/rapists/genociders it just doesn't stack up any more. Religious people are no more likely to be cruel or unintelligent than anyone else. Religion has nothing to do with why people do awful things, it may just be used as a scape goat. And if people were really more intelligent than the religious people they bash they would see that. People who bash people for thinking differently are the unintelligent ones. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakonwick Posted March 15, 2020 #546 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Personally, I have no problem with science or religion! (I actually grew up in a very religious Southern Baptist family, it was rough but it taught me to think for myself.) Both sides of the isle have their idiots. It's when you get so deep that you become a zealot, is where I draw the line! Ignorance does not solve anything. And then there are the Flat Earthers, who have somehow seemed to have turned their wild beliefs into some type of religion! lol 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted March 15, 2020 #547 Share Posted March 15, 2020 23 hours ago, DieChecker said: It does come down to people. I do hold a lot of Christian's to account for several things. First that they allow horrible people to get authority and leadership positions. I think this is mainly American laziness, that they each dont want to be the leader so some idiot gets to be leader because he wants that authority. Second, that much of Christianity has become the Pharisees that Jesus ranted about as being the problem. These people are fixated on specific cherry picked rules, that the loose the meaning behind Christs teachings. They loose "love" as their driving force. And instead just follow rules. Jesus said it was easier for such a person to pass through the eye of a needle then to get into Heaven. Its frankly very sad. I would suggest that its impossible for some to maintain love as their driving force when they are having a hard enough time reconciling the rather bi-polar, vindictive god of the Old Testament with the all loving god of the New Testament, particularly as it’s supposed to be the same God. Christianity might have been better off if the early church fathers had thrown the Old Testament out. cormac 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted March 15, 2020 #548 Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said: I would suggest that its impossible for some to maintain love as their driving force when they are having a hard enough time reconciling the rather bi-polar, vindictive god of the Old Testament with the all loving god of the New Testament, particularly as it’s supposed to be the same God. Christianity might have been better off if the early church fathers had thrown the Old Testament out. cormac Perhaps so. Obviously they felt it held some worth. I probably would have argued that much of the OT had little to do with the NT, and just went with the books of the NT, with an appendix and footnotes for the references to the Jewish Texts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 15, 2020 #549 Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Piney said: Which are 3 of the places organized religion prey. sorry but your comment doesn't make sense (to me) as it stands I will try to answer what i think you meant religion(and just spiritual faith without a religion) frees a person from all forms of bondage, and servitude from material and physical desires etc Yes it can require (but not always) a commitment to certain principles and practices. BUT this is a freely entered into contract for the benefit of the believer, and if it doesn't provide a benefit can be given up The most liberated humans I know are ordinary people of supreme faith. The y have no need for anything else, and thus no ties, commitments, traps, addictions etc to their material or psychological wants . They are totally free They dont require to work hard to live but may choose to work hard to provide for others . They don't have addictions to anything and the y have no worries or fears or concerns. Faith provides all their needs Edited March 15, 2020 by Mr Walker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted March 15, 2020 #550 Share Posted March 15, 2020 18 hours ago, Piney said: Frank Herbert used that idea in the last 2 Dune novels. Ok. Interesting. This was a short story from earlier(probably the 1960s) I've read most of the dune novels but maybe not the last couple since Herbert died Like many of the best SF writers he explored all sorts of social issues and how they connect to technologies and science of a time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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