The Work that God does

[jmccr8]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

and worked my way a bit up the chain of supply But i struggled with the concept f selling stuff to people who didn't need it.

Hi Walkjer

I have trouble with this, hy would you think you know why someone wants to buy something or need iot are you living under their roof, signing their paychecks or are their bookie? 

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Most of my Amway customers were older women  (well, older than me a t 20 or so) who wanted company and conversation and provided homemade cakes etc .I was happy with doing that but then the y would buy expensive products they didn't need, just to get me to visit  them again   I was making more from m Amway than teaching and the bosses wanted me to become a district agent providing goods to dozens of part time workers but i really couldn't see myself doing that, and i liked teaching much more 

They manufacture those products because there is sufficient data to support the incredible profits of being young and beautiful and will spend that money somewhere  else that will give them that satisfaction and somehow I can see you telling a customer that you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear I have done some marketing/sales work myself and found niches with products and felt comfort/confidence in providing them maybe you didn't find yours

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I was making about 1 000 dollars in 1970 and getting a scholarship of about 1250 which paid my board and all my costs at uni 

By 1974 I started teaching on a wage of $5200 a year and was earning about $6000 from  Amway.

I stopped when i got married in  jan 1976 

Yes and I had an uncle from Australia that sold Amway as well much different story and don't want to bore you with his accomplishments. Potential is what we make it.

jmccr8

[Alchopwn]

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You just proved my opening point.  I have been found to be "Highly functional" and   able to discern reality etc Have you ?

Your diagnosis is entirely because most countries aren't legally allowed to diagnose behavior with a religious basis as a mental illness, regardless of how self destructive or questionable it may be.  Note that the term "high functioning" is synonymous not with sanity but with an underlying condition with which you appear to be coping well.  This constitutes an interesting admission on your part.  It is clearly very important to you, but did you get a second opinion?

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

When a person encounters a different physical reality they cannot deny it but must use the mind to come to understand it and function within it  

So... Rather than setting to work critically, gathering data, and working thru the info to get to a rational answer, you just swallowed it.  That isn't very bright.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You didn't hurt me. it just showed your bias and lack of understanding about the nature/role of belief and religion in humans  Why ? Were you trying to hurt? 

If I didn't hurt you, why do you even mention it?  I wasn't trying to hurt you btw, my intention is only to get you to wake up to the fact of your delusion.  It is interesting that you are projecting this sort of blame onto me however, and further underlines your likely narcissism. The more I read this, the more I am beginning to think you are a pretty damaged personality Walker.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No Pain and suffering are NOT meant to be part of the human condition. They are psychological constructs  of the human mind  and not physical things (There is some physiological purpose to pain, but basically pain is a product of mind not body)

Pain is not a "psychological construct", it is a natural reaction from the nervous system designed to tell us that our body is being injured.  They ways the body produces pain stimulus are well known.  There are elements of the process that deserve further study, but when you get thumped or cut and feel pain, that is something science understands quite well.  Now it is possible to compartmentalize pain, but that mental process is the construct, as it requires conscious focus, whereas a physiological reaction doesn't.  You have this all backwards.  When a baby shifts its weight in the womb, it is feeling pain i.e. discomfort.  It is utterly intrinsic to the human condition, and while we can mitigate it, and overcome it, pain is part of being a human being.  Overcoming pain is likely somewhat counter-productive for a healthy person in fact, as pain serves a purpose in your protection.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

People who believe they have to suffer have been conned . Its really quite easy, although time consuming, to learn how NOT to suffer and even to reduce pain perception by over 50%     This is one of the biggest roles of modern psychology  

 Sorry, I want to know when I have injured myself.  I think that is useful information, and I am glad my body lets me know.  If I didn't feel pain, I wouldn't know when I ran the risk of permanent injury or death.  Pain is valuable to one's well-being.  Obviously when there is too much pain and the alarm system won't "switch off" it is a damned nuisance, but that is why we have painkillers, isn't it?

You have also forgotten the crucial lesson, that there is no growth without pain, and no pain without growth.  Your fear of pain may well be cutting you off from life.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I have not suffered since i learnt that it was something i constructed and chose for myself.  (aged about 21)

So the next question is, why do you fear pain so very much?  I might suggest that your desperate avoidance of pain may constitute a neurotic trait in itself.  Pain is a useful survival tool, but you have made of it an enemy.  How is that healthy?  How is that the response of an integrated human personality?  Take a long hard look at yourself Walker.  What you have done isn't good for you.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I have felt excruciating pain after open heart surgery but i used it to rejoice that i was alive rather than see it as suffering and so i did not suffer.  

I am pleased that you managed to develop a pain management strategy after an operation.  Some people find this hard to do. We may have been talking at cross purposes here.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Even where we cannot alter our physical environment we can establish total psychological control over how we perceive it and respond to it 

"Total" is a big word.  Is that really what you mean?

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

God gives me power. More power helps me do more and become more.  That enables me to help more people and make more of a difference As a humanist that is my prime directive. 

"The definition of humanism is a belief that human needs and values are more important than religious beliefs, or the needs and desires of humans. An example of humanism is the belief that the person creates their own set of ethics." - Google definition, not my own, but pertinent.  Not really compatible with theism.  Why do you need to claim that this imaginary deity is the one giving you the power?  Are you not in control of your own perception and environment that you haven't realised that the deity isn't real, and is just another mental projection?

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Your upbringing has given you your prejudices. i was raised atheist /secular humanist, so mine are different. I chose to establish a relationship with god after it appeared to me when i was 22 So i dont have those childhood phobias   

So basically you opted into the religious lie intentionally after a delusional episode.  Well done Stimpy.  Clearly conformity and social approval is important to you. That doesn't sound like a person who is in control of their environment and perceptions to me.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I see humans as capable  of great good and evil and  that my choice is  to do as much good as i can. 

So, you are telling me that you see the world as a black and white moral construction and you have chosen a side you believe to be ethical.  This seems a bit naive.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I see humans as capable  of great good and evil and  that my choice is  to do as much good as i can. 

Good.  Then give up on spreading religion, it isn't helping anyone.  It only ever gets people pinning their hopes on a lie that will never deliver.  It is cruel to do that.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Because i am good i see most humans as good, with a few exceptions.

You assuming your own goodness is intensely narcissistic.  Not even saints presumed their own goodness buddy.  You shouldn't be the one judging such things.  That is why we have a jury of our peers appointed by court with the approval of both councils.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I know myself better than i know any other human being.

An interesting comment in itself.  Maybe you should try to know other people better?  You might learn something?  Why do you need to even make this assertion?  It seems to me that this is the comment of someone who doesn't really understand human interactions, and actually only has a superficial level of relationships with other people. 

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

ive been running self- diagnostics on mind and body  since my mother taught me to, aged about 4, and using the results to make choices to build, improve, and strengthen myself, and to adapt to be more productive.

The body is a Bodhi-tree
The soul a shining mirror:
Polish it with good works
Or dust will dull the image.- Sez you.  So let me give you the time honored response...

Bodhi is not a tree;
There is no shining mirror.
Since All begins with Nothing
Where can dust collect? (Hui Neng)

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not perfect and never will be, but i am strong,  i do good, and i am loved, respected and admired by my  family colleagues students   and community  (Not because i seek this but because behaving as i do brings those things with it) 

These desperate self-affirmations seem somewhat hollow.  Why did you even see fit to include them?  If you really felt secure about yourself, they wouldn't have felt necessary.  It is like you are offering them up like a crucifix to a non-existent vampire, as a form of protection.  This snippet reads as if you are throwing these people under and oncoming bus to avoid having to face yourself, as if they are a form of disposable moral armor.  That is narcissism.  A truly moral person doesn't do that.  A truly moral person doesn't need to brag about their good deeds, as that rings hollow.  All this proves is that you are shabby and insecure.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not narcissistic Indeed i had to overcome a shy nature and a lack of confidence as a child  I wanted to be teacher from the age of about 10 and i knew i had to develop the knowledge and qualities required to do this, like confidence in speaking to a group of people   I began by not being able to walk onto a  stge aged about 8  and forcing myself to play the lead role in Hiawatha (aged 10)   to singing in the end of year review aged 18  put on by final year students to an audience of hundreds  Now i give eulogies, have been invited to give church services, and indeed asked if i would work as a funeral  director or  pastor. I always said no because teaching was my first and constant love and because i don't believe i have the religious "belief" needed to do those things  non hypocritically   

• an exaggerated sense of self-importance  
• fantasies of great success, power, attractiveness or intelligence  (belief in one's own superpowers counts btw)
• believing themselves to be special, and only able to be understood by others who are also special 
• an increased sense of entitlement 
• a need for constant admiration or attention 
• taking advantage of others, envying others, or believing others envy them 
• arrogance or haughtiness 
• a lack of empathy 

Sorry buddy, you have 7 out of 8, you're a narcissist.  I only let you off on number 6 because I don't want to believe you are an irredeemable c*nt who takes advantage of others intentionally.  I could go back over your posts and show you multiple examples of when you have repeatedly displayed these traits, but everyone knows it's true.  Incidentally,childhood shyness is a sure-fire signal of narcissism, according to the diagnostics.  Most people drawn to religion are narcissistic btw.  Narcissism is also closely linked to joining the clergy, so that fits too.  Unfortunately it is also linked to pedophilia.  On the upside however it is linked to being homosexual, and that is popular atm.  So, now you know, try not to become malignant.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Never met a grifter that I know of,  and am  absolutely the opposite of a narcissist.

Written with all the self-knowledge of our present POTUS.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

what I do, I do for others, not myself. I do need to keep myself well and secure, to best help others, but that  is all Even when i was selling stuff, (Pet shop, Florists, and AMWAY,  I wouldn't sell anything i thought the person didn't need.  And perhaps not strangely, almost everyone i know is the same 

 The fact you were involved in Amway says it all. That's a toxic grift if there ever was one.

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Alchopwn

[+joc]

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

AMWAY,  I wouldn't sell anything i thought the person didn't need. 

What an ironic twist on Truth...pfffft...

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Your diagnosis is entirely because most countries aren't legally allowed to diagnose behavior with a religious basis as a mental illness, regardless of how self destructive or questionable it may be.  Note that the term "high functioning" is synonymous not with sanity but with an underlying condition with which you appear to be coping well.  This constitutes an interesting admission on your part.  It is clearly very important to you, but did you get a second opinion?

So... Rather than setting to work critically, gathering data, and working thru the info to get to a rational answer, you just swallowed it.  That isn't very bright.

If I didn't hurt you, why do you even mention it?  I wasn't trying to hurt you btw, my intention is only to get you to wake up to the fact of your delusion.  It is interesting that you are projecting this sort of blame onto me however, and further underlines your likely narcissism. The more I read this, the more I am beginning to think you are a pretty damaged personality Walker.

Pain is not a "psychological construct", it is a natural reaction from the nervous system designed to tell us that our body is being injured.  They ways the body produces pain stimulus are well known.  There are elements of the process that deserve further study, but when you get thumped or cut and feel pain, that is something science understands quite well.  Now it is possible to compartmentalize pain, but that mental process is the construct, as it requires conscious focus, whereas a physiological reaction doesn't.  You have this all backwards.  When a baby shifts its weight in the womb, it is feeling pain i.e. discomfort.  It is utterly intrinsic to the human condition, and while we can mitigate it, and overcome it, pain is part of being a human being.  Overcoming pain is likely somewhat counter-productive for a healthy person in fact, as pain serves a purpose in your protection.

 Sorry, I want to know when I have injured myself.  I think that is useful information, and I am glad my body lets me know.  If I didn't feel pain, I wouldn't know when I ran the risk of permanent injury or death.  Pain is valuable to one's well-being.  Obviously when there is too much pain and the alarm system won't "switch off" it is a damned nuisance, but that is why we have painkillers, isn't it?

You have also forgotten the crucial lesson, that there is no growth without pain, and no pain without growth.  Your fear of pain may well be cutting you off from life.

So the next question is, why do you fear pain so very much?  I might suggest that your desperate avoidance of pain may constitute a neurotic trait in itself.  Pain is a useful survival tool, but you have made of it an enemy.  How is that healthy?  How is that the response of an integrated human personality?  Take a long hard look at yourself Walker.  What you have done isn't good for you.

I am pleased that you managed to develop a pain management strategy after an operation.  Some people find this hard to do. We may have been talking at cross purposes here.

"Total" is a big word.  Is that really what you mean?

"The definition of humanism is a belief that human needs and values are more important than religious beliefs, or the needs and desires of humans. An example of humanism is the belief that the person creates their own set of ethics." - Google definition, not my own, but pertinent.  Not really compatible with theism.  Why do you need to claim that this imaginary deity is the one giving you the power?  Are you not in control of your own perception and environment that you haven't realised that the deity isn't real, and is just another mental projection?

So basically you opted into the religious lie intentionally after a delusional episode.  Well done Stimpy.  Clearly conformity and social approval is important to you. That doesn't sound like a person who is in control of their environment and perceptions to me.

So, you are telling me that you see the world as a black and white moral construction and you have chosen a side you believe to be ethical.  This seems a bit naive.

Good.  Then give up on spreading religion, it isn't helping anyone.  It only ever gets people pinning their hopes on a lie that will never deliver.  It is cruel to do that.

You assuming your own goodness is intensely narcissistic.  Not even saints presumed their own goodness buddy.  You shouldn't be the one judging such things.  That is why we have a jury of our peers appointed by court with the approval of both councils.

An interesting comment in itself.  Maybe you should try to know other people better?  You might learn something?  Why do you need to even make this assertion?  It seems to me that this is the comment of someone who doesn't really understand human interactions, and actually only has a superficial level of relationships with other people. 

The body is a Bodhi-tree
The soul a shining mirror:
Polish it with good works
Or dust will dull the image.- Sez you.  So let me give you the time honored response...

Bodhi is not a tree;
There is no shining mirror.
Since All begins with Nothing
Where can dust collect? (Hui Neng)

These desperate self-affirmations seem somewhat hollow.  Why did you even see fit to include them?  If you really felt secure about yourself, they wouldn't have felt necessary.  It is like you are offering them up like a crucifix to a non-existent vampire, as a form of protection.  This snippet reads as if you are throwing these people under and oncoming bus to avoid having to face yourself, as if they are a form of disposable moral armor.  That is narcissism.  A truly moral person doesn't do that.  A truly moral person doesn't need to brag about their good deeds, as that rings hollow.  All this proves is that you are shabby and insecure.

• an exaggerated sense of self-importance  
• fantasies of great success, power, attractiveness or intelligence  (belief in one's own superpowers counts btw)
• believing themselves to be special, and only able to be understood by others who are also special 
• an increased sense of entitlement 
• a need for constant admiration or attention 
• taking advantage of others, envying others, or believing others envy them 
• arrogance or haughtiness 
• a lack of empathy 

Sorry buddy, you have 7 out of 8, you're a narcissist.  I only let you off on number 6 because I don't want to believe you are an irredeemable c*nt who takes advantage of others intentionally.  I could go back over your posts and show you multiple examples of when you have repeatedly displayed these traits, but everyone knows it's true.  Incidentally,childhood shyness is a sure-fire signal of narcissism, according to the diagnostics.  Most people drawn to religion are narcissistic btw.  Narcissism is also closely linked to joining the clergy, so that fits too.  Unfortunately it is also linked to pedophilia.  On the upside however it is linked to being homosexual, and that is popular atm.  So, now you know, try not to become malignant.

Written with all the self-knowledge of our present POTUS.

 The fact you were involved in Amway says it all. That's a toxic grift if there ever was one.

 

lol So many biases 

No my diagnoses had nothing to do with that (and indeed i dont think it is even true, just a bias of yours) I demonstrated the abilty to discern reality and showed that I had the r cognitive /psychological skills to do so.    At that time  *i had  almost completed a degree including psychology so i could speak to the experts in their own language  

Nup IF something is real one must accommodate that  reality no matter how much it is something you dont like or want to believe in  Your assumption is that this was NOT a physical reality 

 I asked a question.

No projection. If you  say your aim is not to hurt then I accept that and see you as simply tactless and provocative  

Pain IS a cognitive construct it is created at the junction between the brain and the spine  It is not "real"  although it serves a useful purpose in warning us of damage 

This has  been discovered in the last decade by people looking a t phantom pain and peole who feel no pain despite severe injuries.

It was found tha t it is not trauma which causes pain, but the brains response to trauma and the way it constructs pain  You can thus learn to minimise the pain you feel by using your mind and techniques which are now being taught in pain clinics of modern hospitals   This is especially important in chronic pain which becomes learned and persist,s long after the cause has gone 

And you are trapped by a foolish perception We learn with our mind, experience and imagination. No one needs pain to grow or learn This can be done in the mind  eg If i read of the pain of another who is burned i will do everything i can not to get burned. i dont have to be burned to be cautious  i dont have any of those indicators Thats your perception based on your own problems and mindsets 

I dont have any exaggerated sense of my own importance

I dont have fantasies except  for entertainment purposes and my fantasies are totally  separate from  reality (you read my posts and assume they are fantasy . None are; the y are all true )   

Lol of course i am special; just as every human being is special But no more or less special than anyone else. 

I have NO sense of entitlement 

I take pride only in that which i earn from  effort and i acknowledge the  good fortune of being born where/when  i was and having the parents i did  But what i am today has come from many decades of hard work and effort  

Of course i like attention and admiration, but no more than  anyone  I don't want to be  ignored and    despised However i wont change myself or my behaviours to gain acceptance or popularity 

Ido the opposite to taking advantage of others .ive spent my life giving to others and helping others  I dont envy anyone.  I can see why some might envy me but its all relative 

The thong yousee as arrogance or haughtiness is more difficult to explain It is how I've learned to be.

In part its from  having to teach classes of form 20 to 40  teenagers which requires assertiveness and confidence     In part its the fact that  i respect myself  In part its tha t i use non emotive language and deal with physical things not emotional responses  ie I will help a person  in need rather than just say platitudes .  

your last comment s funny  I am known by most as a particularly empathetic and caring person who helps people wherever he can 

Now it was probably a waste of time to explain all this to you, as you  dont have an open mind,  but it needed to be said 

Didnt you get my point about  AMWAY ?

I used it as a way to help lonely people , to spend time with them  and to talk with them.  I was very good at it  because (it may surprise you) I am excellent with people  However i wasn't interested in the business side or making money from  it, once i could earn a living as a teacher so i kept it to clients i could help and give comfort to 

Even so you are pretty judgemental   I am not a business type person but businesses serve both providers and customers. If there is an equal balance of reward  and trust, the business is operating ethically   I didnt find amway in the early 70s any worse or better than  working in retail shops.  Overheads were  low allowing a greater  profit  At first the products were cheap and of excellent quality While the quality remained excellent the cost rose to a point where i couldn't justify asking peop le to pay it even though  some customers  insisted  it was so good the y would pay the higher prices. 

I wont pass judgement on the president of another country but i suspect he MIGHT prove to be one of the most successful presidents in American history .

However this virus is making a hash of everything. and altering history as we speak. If not for it. Trump was on track to restore America's economy and thus give ordinary  people back jobs and self  worth He might even have been able to build a counter to Chinese dominance of world trade   and military power before it is too late.  

Oh, and by the way, try naming one human being you think you know better than you know yourself   

Oh and i was raised an atheist secular humanist.

i retain the secular values and ethics and philosophies, but cant claim to be secular, because i know god is real and powerful   In my exerince "His" aims are the same as humanist ones, so there is no conflict  One can be humanist, and either secular or non secular  

Edited March 28, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, joc said:

What an ironic twist on Truth...pfffft...

When i started selling Amway it was cheap and highly effective 

customers swore by it  That began to change by the time i got out of it  The quality remained high, but costs rose  a lot,

 Anyway I only sold what people ordered from me and wanted.

  I know some people got me to come back each week for company so i was happy not to sell anything.

Beore i was married and while at uni   it was a pleasant way to spend an evening or afternoon with people who had no one else.

  i was raised making afternoon tea, serving it to ladies and learning to converse withem from  very early age because my mother had meetings several times a week at home for different organisations and charities.Myaim was not to sell then anything   but just have a piece of home made  cake, and a cuppa,  and a good chat.(I love talking with people ) 

Still, until the mid 70s, most customers wanted to buy the basic products because they were so cheap and effective.  I used them all myself   as a single bloke.  It was cheaper than buying from  the shop. 

I am assuming from the negative feedback that, sometime later, it got a bad reputation but this was well before that. 

[Alchopwn]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol So many biases 

Back at ya.  All you have done is endeavour to deny things that everyone else knows to be true.  Denial is not refutation.  How you see yourself is not the important thing in diagnosis.

 

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Back at ya.  All you have done is endeavour to deny things that everyone else knows to be true.  Denial is not refutation.  How you see yourself is not the important thing in diagnosis.

 

You do NOT know what is true or false in my life.

You make assumptions based upon your own life, your own experiences, and what you choose to believe,  NOT on anything you know about me or my life.   It is simply illogical for you  to assume that my experiences must mirror yours, or that only your experiences can be real. 

and, of course, self  diagnoses must precede clinical diagnoses That is true even in this current crisis Unless you  diagnose yourself as having some symptoms,  there is point in seeing a clinician.

One does not  rely on self diagnosis as the endpoint, but it is always the start point 

[Alchopwn]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You do NOT know what is true or false in my life.

You make assumptions based upon your own life, your own experiences, and what you choose to believe,  NOT on anything you know about me or my life.   It is simply illogical for you  to assume that my experiences must mirror yours, or that only your experiences can be real. 

and, of course, self  diagnoses must precede clinical diagnoses That is true even in this current crisis Unless you  diagnose yourself as having some symptoms,  there is point in seeing a clinician.

One does not  rely on self diagnosis as the endpoint, but it is always the start point 

I am only making observations on what you have written and what they reveal about you.  Consider it a bit like literary criticism.  You may not properly understand how you come across to people.  As for myself, I take a lesson from Buddhism, and make like a rhino.  As to self-diagnosis, that doesn't work.  Most people will go most of their lives with an undiagnosed mental condition that is painfully obvious to everyone around them before it begins to hinder their life enough that they seek out professional help.  Self diagnosis is a bad idea, but your response is in keeping with what a narcissist would suggest, i.e. "I'm doing fine, I'm so great I can do all that doctor stuff for myself."  Well you can't, not properly.  Worse still, malignant narcissists often seriously damage the lives of people around them, while maintaining that they aren't the source of the problem.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Alchopwn

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I am only making observations on what you have written and what they reveal about you.  Consider it a bit like literary criticism.  You may not properly understand how you come across to people.  As for myself, I take a lesson from Buddhism, and make like a rhino.  As to self-diagnosis, that doesn't work.  Most people will go most of their lives with an undiagnosed mental condition that is painfully obvious to everyone around them before it begins to hinder their life enough that they seek out professional help.  Self diagnosis is a bad idea, but your response is in keeping with what a narcissist would suggest, i.e. "I'm doing fine, I'm so great I can do all that doctor stuff for myself."  Well you can't, not properly.  Worse still, malignant narcissists often seriously damage the lives of people around them, while maintaining that they aren't the source of the problem.

ah Fair enough

of course what i post here is a tiny fraction of my life and a very skewed one. It is where i come to argue debate and discuss and be perhaps provocative in m ypov  

It is a written forum with no body language or facial expression to help denote tone  and  my training is in writing unemotionally and dispassionately  

Self diagnoses is a recommended part of both physical and mental health care.

However i agree that you should get professional help as soon as your diagnosis reveals a problem  (if you  cant detect one its probably not serious enough to worry about (or so bad others will notice)

  I simply don't have any mental health issues, not even anxiety or depression let alone any of the more serious ones.  i do have my share of physical  problems.  In both cases i use professionals to guide help and advise me.

Ive said before that i am probably one of the few people here who has had full psychiatric testing  and been found to be in perfect mental health  

Your comments about narcissism are interesting but irrelevant. I am not anywhere near a narcissist and anyone in my community or who knows me will confirm that.People around me are helped, strengthened, and protected by my presence, (and of course a narcissist might say that  but  in this case it is objectively true ) That  was my role as a teacher, and remains my role as an elder in my immediate and extended  family, and my community.  

It is fascinating and informative that, on this forum, a number of people have decided i am a narcissist (and other things) yet in real life none has ever suggested anything like that despite me working with  and being close to thousands of people over many decades    Either people here have unusually low self esteem (and thus see healthy slef esteem as narcissism)   OR my style here causes some to  see it as narcissism OR it is just used as a mechanism to discredit the content of my posts, when that content cannot be argued factually ie discredit the writer to discredit his opinions views or values.     

Edited March 30, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Alchopwn]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It is a written forum with no body language or facial expression to help denote tone  and  my training is in writing unemotionally and dispassionately  

Interestingly, there are a lot of unwritten cues that are involved in syntax, word choice, and choice of expression.  This "tone" of the written word is something that people were a lot more sensitive to in the 19th century, and later became synonymous with literary criticism.  This is where ideas like "subtext" come from.  Given that the written word doesn't convey the voice of the author specifically, we, the reader need to impute the context, and we can get surprisingly good at it.  These communications skills can help in other areas of human communication as well.  As to people writing dispassionately, well, there is a "report writing style" and a number of other guides to professional writing styles, but at the end of the day, nobody is entirely dispassionate, try as they might to be so, and elements of their personality slip thru in their writing.  Some cynics have even suggested that personality can be reduced to anomalies of word choice.  This is something I disagree with, but there is a measure of truth to it from a "literary critical" perspective, in that, if all you know of a person is their written words, it can seem that way.  As a person who translat/es/ed for a living I have to be pretty sensitive to tone and implication in written documents.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Self diagnoses is a recommended part of both physical and mental health care.

We "can't not" observe our interactions, and we might try to self-diagnose, and that will be pretty good in cases of physical ailments, but often isn't so good in cases of mental issues.  People with anxiety related disorders (Cluster C) are generally well aware that something is wrong, as are people suffering depression.  When it comes to the diagnosis of other personality disorders (Clusters A and B), people are pretty bad at self diagnosis.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I've said before that i am probably one of the few people here who has had full psychiatric testing  and been found to be in perfect mental health  

So be honest here, are you gonna tell me you don't even have any phobias?  I don't mean debilitating ones, I mean minor ones.  I think everyone collects at least a little bit of "software glitch" at some point.  In any case, I would consider this incorrect, on the grounds that religiosity is pretty clearly a strong attachment to things for which there is no objective proof of existence, and hence should be considered a mental illness, and a debilitating one that causes them to keep paying conmen.  This sort of magical thinking is sometimes associated with schizotypal personality disorder, but if you think god actually speaks back to you (or should speak to you, or that you deserve to be listened to as if you were speaking for god), that is narcissism.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Your comments about narcissism are interesting but irrelevant. I am not anywhere near a narcissist and anyone in my community or who knows me will confirm that.People around me are helped, strengthened, and protected by my presence, (and of course a narcissist might say that  but  in this case it is objectively true ) That  was my role as a teacher, and remains my role as an elder in my immediate and extended  family, and my community.  

The fact is that everyone has a narcissistic side to their personality.  Really personality disorders only become an issue when people have an onset event that is, typically, depression.  After that, their underlying default personality disorder begins to assert itself as a coping strategy.  Note, I suspect you are quite a happy narcissist, and often narcissists group together and are all happy preening together, and out-grouping those who don't conform within their circle of success and self congratulation.  This is observed in many communities.  It is also somewhat unstable however, as it often has a sociopath infiltrator at its core who is aware that the perception of success is generally as deep as most narcissists will ever look, given their superficial attachment style.  Strangely enough, narcissists are amongst the most manipulated people,as they are too busy cultivating their own self image to worry about understanding other people properly.  That makes narcissists cash cows for grifters, as narcissists are prone to simply trust other people, especially successful ones whom they project their own motivations onto.  Of course malignant narcissists are something else again, and I am not accusing you of being one.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It is fascinating and informative that, on this forum, a number of people have decided i am a narcissist (and other things) yet in real life none has ever suggested anything like that despite me working with  and being close to thousands of people over many decades    Either people here have unusually low self esteem (and thus see healthy slef esteem as narcissism)   OR my style here causes some to  see it as narcissism OR it is just used as a mechanism to discredit the content of my posts, when that content cannot be argued factually ie discredit the writer to discredit his opinions views or values.     

The issue of self esteem is an interesting one.  In fact in the USA there has been a push to make us more culturally narcissistic, as it was seen as being beneficial for capitalism as an ideology during the Cold War.  Narcissists apparently get sick less often too according to psych studies, however they are also way less popular than they think they are, even amongst other narcissists who they believe are their allies (also according to psych studies, and maybe even US foreign policy if we want to "macro-project").  As a US citizen who has travelled extensively around the world (I only have 36 countries left to visit, and they are all what our POTUS would correctly label as sh**-holes according to people I have spoken to who have been there), I do find out overt patriotism jarring and extreme when I get home.  The whole cult of "we're number 1", is entirely narcissistic, and it isn't doing us any favors, as if we're number 1, then there isn't any room for improvement, is there? It creates a sense of complacency and entitlement, and that leads to hubris and self destruction.  Much the same is true of narcissistic communities.  They like conformity, especially of opinion, and that leads to groupthink, which in turn leads to unforeseen catastrophe, because any opinion that isn't their own is of less value, or just plain wrong, and so they never heed the warnings.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Alchopwn

[Piney]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Self diagnoses is a recommended part of both physical and mental health care.

No it is not. Doctors seek the opinions of other doctors. My stepmother and brother would never treat themselves for serious issues. 

[+joc]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

No it is not. Doctors seek the opinions of other doctors. My stepmother and brother would never treat themselves for serious issues. 

Just wondering what a self-diagnosis of Mental Health would look like!  

Well, hmmmm, I think my thinking is correct.  Yep, I am mentally healthy...zero issues...

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Interestingly, there are a lot of unwritten cues that are involved in syntax, word choice, and choice of expression.  This "tone" of the written word is something that people were a lot more sensitive to in the 19th century, and later became synonymous with literary criticism.  This is where ideas like "subtext" come from.  Given that the written word doesn't convey the voice of the author specifically, we, the reader need to impute the context, and we can get surprisingly good at it.  These communications skills can help in other areas of human communication as well.  As to people writing dispassionately, well, there is a "report writing style" and a number of other guides to professional writing styles, but at the end of the day, nobody is entirely dispassionate, try as they might to be so, and elements of their personality slip thru in their writing.  Some cynics have even suggested that personality can be reduced to anomalies of word choice.  This is something I disagree with, but there is a measure of truth to it from a "literary critical" perspective, in that, if all you know of a person is their written words, it can seem that way.  As a person who translat/es/ed for a living I have to be pretty sensitive to tone and implication in written documents.

We "can't not" observe our interactions, and we might try to self-diagnose, and that will be pretty good in cases of physical ailments, but often isn't so good in cases of mental issues.  People with anxiety related disorders (Cluster C) are generally well aware that something is wrong, as are people suffering depression.  When it comes to the diagnosis of other personality disorders (Clusters A and B), people are pretty bad at self diagnosis.

So be honest here, are you gonna tell me you don't even have any phobias?  I don't mean debilitating ones, I mean minor ones.  I think everyone collects at least a little bit of "software glitch" at some point.  In any case, I would consider this incorrect, on the grounds that religiosity is pretty clearly a strong attachment to things for which there is no objective proof of existence, and hence should be considered a mental illness, and a debilitating one that causes them to keep paying conmen.  This sort of magical thinking is sometimes associated with schizotypal personality disorder, but if you think god actually speaks back to you (or should speak to you, or that you deserve to be listened to as if you were speaking for god), that is narcissism.

The fact is that everyone has a narcissistic side to their personality.  Really personality disorders only become an issue when people have an onset event that is, typically, depression.  After that, their underlying default personality disorder begins to assert itself as a coping strategy.  Note, I suspect you are quite a happy narcissist, and often narcissists group together and are all happy preening together, and out-grouping those who don't conform within their circle of success and self congratulation.  This is observed in many communities.  It is also somewhat unstable however, as it often has a sociopath infiltrator at its core who is aware that the perception of success is generally as deep as most narcissists will ever look, given their superficial attachment style.  Strangely enough, narcissists are amongst the most manipulated people,as they are too busy cultivating their own self image to worry about understanding other people properly.  That makes narcissists cash cows for grifters, as narcissists are prone to simply trust other people, especially successful ones whom they project their own motivations onto.  Of course malignant narcissists are something else again, and I am not accusing you of being one.

The issue of self esteem is an interesting one.  In fact in the USA there has been a push to make us more culturally narcissistic, as it was seen as being beneficial for capitalism as an ideology during the Cold War.  Narcissists apparently get sick less often too according to psych studies, however they are also way less popular than they think they are, even amongst other narcissists who they believe are their allies (also according to psych studies, and maybe even US foreign policy if we want to "macro-project").  As a US citizen who has travelled extensively around the world (I only have 36 countries left to visit, and they are all what our POTUS would correctly label as sh**-holes according to people I have spoken to who have been there), I do find out overt patriotism jarring and extreme when I get home.  The whole cult of "we're number 1", is entirely narcissistic, and it isn't doing us any favors, as if we're number 1, then there isn't any room for improvement, is there? It creates a sense of complacency and entitlement, and that leads to hubris and self destruction.  Much the same is true of narcissistic communities.  They like conformity, especially of opinion, and that leads to groupthink, which in turn leads to unforeseen catastrophe, because any opinion that isn't their own is of less value, or just plain wrong, and so they never heed the warnings.

I agree with everything in the first two paragraphs

no I don't have any phobias, and actually no emotional fear at all. Just intellectual caution and commonsense 

Indeed this virus is annoying me because the precautions are basically fear based and irrational eg There is no case within 170 miles of us, yet we are  under house arrest and everything is closing down  That is not a rational risk assessment, but one based on emotions  (eg  fear)  Restricting travel, even over short distances, on the other hand, is logical 

I began training and disciplining my mind, with my parents help,  aged about 4 

The first real success i had was with fear, which i eliminated entirely aged about 14   (eliminating the fear of fear was the hardest and  most time consuming  step) You can see by this that it is time consuming process, requiring some skill, but mostly discipline and perseverance

Basically fears and phobias are irrational, beyond a healthy caution Do everything you can to avoid harm, and then don't worry about it  My dad drummed that into me as a child

I might be lucky, as it seems i am in the 13-!7 % of humans who never suffer from  depression That might be genetics, parenting,  or a combination of both 

I don't have any faith/belief in religion, and I dont attend or belong to any church I just have a personal relationship with a powerful physical "god" (according to the professionals that is not a form of mental illness)  

You probably see it that way because you are so certain it can't be real, but a professional, even an atheist, wont make that judgement.

Plus, of course, medicine and science has proven the great benefits of belief to human health (Both physical;and mental)   and longevity.

Every one has elements  of  every type of personality. I tend to the opposite of narcissism; ie altruism, compassion and love of others. 

You obviously have deep concern about  narcissists 

On the other hand they dont worry me at all. I avoid people who are angry (and any who  can't control their behaviors)   selfish or have other elements of character which can harm those around them (or just limit the potential of those around them) 

I suspect the "cult of self"  has many origins, although capitalism may be one. Just having smaller families also drives it.  Itis hard to feel special in a family with a dozen kids  Plus isolation from your "tribe"  through work, movement of people, and loss of extended families makes people more individualistic Without community they have to rely more on self. 

i am part of a larger close community and a huge extended family. (if i had a party for my relatives within 50 miles several hundred would attend )  If I included my wifes family that would add another hundred  again all within 50 miles of my home Our families have lived here for 150 years and my family home had been in my mums family for over 100 years and  6 generations when it was demolished  

Its much harder to be a narcissist in tha t environment, and less necessary to be an individualist,  as you are surrounded by support, and care, and love 

I actually think community opinion (and value)  is more important than individual, But that is a conscious  social choice.  If i move into a community it is on the understanding that i will live by their rules and customs, unless the y break my personal ethics and moralities   It is why i won't live in a big city, and love rural communities. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, Piney said:

No it is not. Doctors seek the opinions of other doctors. My stepmother and brother would never treat themselves for serious issues. 

So.  How do you  decide when to go to a doctor? You self diagnose your condition.

No symptoms? No need to see a doctor (except for your regular health check, based on age and condition)  

Thats what i meant by self  diagnosis being an essential first step 

The first thing any of my doctors ask me when i walk in is, "Why are you  here ?" Unless you  have done a self  diagnosis, you can't answer that.

[+DieChecker]

Usually my wife tells me... When I have to go to the doctor. 

I, myself, would probably never go see a doctor on my own. Might be dead by now too. Probably would cut myself and bleed to death, or some such stupidity.

God bless that woman! 

Doctor says, "Why are you here?", and I say, "My wife sent me here.". And usually shes right there, saying I need this, or that checked.

Edited March 31, 2020 by DieChecker

[Cultivator of Fa]

On 3/8/2020 at 6:38 PM, Cookie Monster said:

We are born into a universe that has both positive and negative aspects.

Life doesnt go how any of us expect as we get both negative experiences and problems come our way. Some of them everybody has like at some point we all have to go through dying. But some are unique to us. Maybe we arent as attractive or intelligent or healthy or successful as we had hoped, etc. Maybe we encounter accidents that change us, maybe we are the victims of crime, maybe life goes badly for us at different stages.

So I have developed a really weird approach to religion. To begin with our societies are full of ideals which tell us we are good and valuable people if we behave in one way. But that we are bad and worthless if we behave another. After reflecting on societies ideals I have realised that they originated (or originate for new ones that emerge) from people trying to satisfy their own particular needs.

I notice many poor people demonise the rich as corrupt or greedy. I notice that those with nothing particularly special going for them demonise those that have. I noticed those who are miserable hate pleasure. With societies ideals I reached the conclusion that anti-materialism, anti-egotism, and anti-hedonism are not inherently wrong. That collectively people have created ideals to protect themselves from negative emotions that society has adopted.

I realised that this is Gods universe, not mine, not other peoples, and not societies. Therefore what matters is what God considers good and valuable, not the ideals which are projected onto us. It changed me. I started to enjoy material things, I let myself have a big ego, and I sought out pleasure wherever I could find it. Nothing bad happened at all, in fact it changed my life. 

In my opinion God created us the way that we are to be the way that we are. He created a universe for us to fully enjoy. He gave us positive traits so we could gain pleasure from them and enjoy the way they flatter our egos. In my opinion anti-materialism, anti-egotism, and anti-hedonism, put us at odds with Gods intention and we get punished for it. Likewise if we take out our negative traits or negative life experiences on other people we get punished for that too.

So we are supposed to enjoy material possessions, to enjoy what makes us special and let it go to our heads, and to be pleasure seeking people. All of us. Not only are we supposed to behave that way ourselves but try to help other people be that way too. Then we are all aligned with God and things go great for us.

My views have been heavily shaped by Kabbala. Something else weird I noticed about Kabbala is that it talks about words impacting the way reality unfolds. I dont get how to do it, but I noticed simply reading Kabbala texts before applying the practices has an affect too. I dont know what thats about or why it works but its there.

Everything i own in this life can be put in a box that is 15x23 inches or something like that. that does not make me poor, and it does not make me rich. but it has made me a more happy person since i does not own many things. I enjoy life a lot more then before, because there is no worries that things get broken or stolen. So to me materalism is unimportant.

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Cultivator of Fa said:

Everything i own in this life can be put in a box that is 15x23 inches or something like that. that does not make me poor, and it does not make me rich. but it has made me a more happy person since i does not own many things. I enjoy life a lot more then before, because there is no worries that things get broken or stolen. So to me materalism is unimportant.

How much of that is true and how much are you trying to convince yourself its true?

There is nothing wrong at all with materialism so why shouldn't we enjoy material possessions?

Other people and society are not God, therefore we dont let them dictate to us their self-serving ideals or distorted forms of morality. This is Gods universe, God decides what is moral not them. God has created a universe for you in which you have the freedom to enjoy everything he has made available to you. That includes material possessions, so enjoy them. We do not self-flagellate, we do not self-deny, we do not seek validation from other people that we are moral by reaching their ideals. 

God has created us, he has created us with egos, he has created a world full of pleasure for us, he has created material possessions for us. That is his gift to you not something to be ashamed off. It is other people and society which by promoting self-serving ideals have convinced you that egotism, hedonism, and materialism, are bad things. In reality denying them puts you at odds with what God intended for you. From Gods perspective you are immoral for not considering him. God gave you all those things yet you have cut yourself off from him.

[Cultivator of Fa]

1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

How much of that is true and how much are you trying to convince yourself its true?

There is nothing wrong at all with materialism so why shouldn't we enjoy material possessions?

Other people and society are not God, therefore we dont let them dictate to us their self-serving ideals or distorted forms of morality. This is Gods universe, God decides what is moral not them. God has created a universe for you in which you have the freedom to enjoy everything he has made available to you. That includes material possessions, so enjoy them. We do not self-flagellate, we do not self-deny, we do not seek validation from other people that we are moral by reaching their ideals. 

God has created us, he has created us with egos, he has created a world full of pleasure for us, he has created material possessions for us. That is his gift to you not something to be ashamed off. It is other people and society which by promoting self-serving ideals have convinced you that egotism, hedonism, and materialism, are bad things. In reality denying them puts you at odds with what God intended for you. From Gods perspective you are immoral for not considering him. God gave you all those things yet you have cut yourself off from him.

No need to try to convice my self about it, because i used to own a lot of things but i was never happy, i was constant worry that it got stolen or broke. but when i ended the attachments to the objects i saw no need to keep those things, so much of it i gave away to those who wanted it.

I dont say it is wrong to own physical objects in this world, but the way i see it is that being attched to it make us suffer if something happens to the objects we see as ours.

[Duke Wellington]

Just now, Cultivator of Fa said:

No need to try to convice my self about it, because i used to own a lot of things but i was never happy, i was constant worry that it got stolen or broke. but when i ended the attachments to the objects i saw no need to keep those things, so much of it i gave away to those who wanted it.

I dont say it is wrong to own physical objects in this world, but the way i see it is that being attched to it make us suffer if something happens to the objects we see as ours.

Have you found a contradiction there between Judeo-Christian mysticism and Buddhism?

Having thought about it carefully then I dont think you have. Buddhism doesnt teach denial of material possessions or denial of ones ego. Instead it teaches self-reflection and self-understanding into how our minds work.

Material possessions and the ego can bring us a lot of joy and pleasure in life. They can also cause us suffering. Buddhism doesnt teach the denial of joy and pleasure to also prevent suffering. It teaches the indulgence of joy and pleasure, while giving people the coping skills to regulate away negative emotions.

You dont deny what is good too also prevent what is bad. You indulge in the good, and learn how to cope with the bad.

[Cultivator of Fa]

15 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Have you found a contradiction there between Judeo-Christian mysticism and Buddhism?

Having thought about it carefully then I dont think you have. Buddhism doesnt teach denial of material possessions or denial of ones ego. Instead it teaches self-reflection and self-understanding into how our minds work.

Material possessions and the ego can bring us a lot of joy and pleasure in life. They can also cause us suffering. Buddhism doesnt teach the denial of joy and pleasure to also prevent suffering. It teaches the indulgence of joy and pleasure, while giving people the coping skills to regulate away negative emotions.

You dont deny what is good too also prevent what is bad. You indulge in the good, and learn how to cope with the bad.

Before i converted to Falun Gong i was practicing Theravada buddhism for more then 20 years so yes i have thought a lot about it.

It is not a problem to own physical objects, but as i said earlier, it is the attachments to it that is a problem (especially in spiritual practice) And buddhism refrain from owning physical objects because they see it as an easier way to not have attachments to objects when they do not have any.

Wheras for me as Falun Gong practitioner i can have objects if i want to, but i personally have chosen to not own many things in this life. but others may have many things they own. Each person is different. So there is no right or wrong answer to owning or not owning physical objects

[Duke Wellington]

4 minutes ago, Cultivator of Fa said:

Before i converted to Falun Gong i was practicing Theravada buddhism for more then 20 years so yes i have thought a lot about it.

It is not a problem to own physical objects, but as i said earlier, it is the attachments to it that is a problem (especially in spiritual practice) And buddhism refrain from owning physical objects because they see it as an easier way to not have attachments to objects when they do not have any.

Wheras for me as Falun Gong practitioner i can have objects if i want to, but i personally have chosen to not own many things in this life. but others may have many things they own. Each person is different. So there is no right or wrong answer to owning or not owning physical objects

For me denial causes a problem as we are denying what the creator has provided.

I see the best approach as complete and utter indulgence to keep the creator happy. Often the cause of suffering is the wrong way of viewing an event. Altering our perceptions reveals the pleasure we can experience from the event instead, and by enjoying that pleasure we can keep the creator happy.

I maintain that there is pleasure to be gained in every single negative experience, even our own deaths.

Pleasures are not good, but both good and evil. While we might experience pleasure from doing something nice for our partner we also get a darker enjoyment from being mean to a moron. God makes a full range of good and evil pleasures available to us in our lives and expects us to enjoy them. If we resist he doubles down on us to force us to enjoy them.

Take a person who keeps attracting abusive partners into their lives. They are a nice person, a good person, yet their partners all seem to be abusive causing them to suffer. The problem with them is they only allow themselves to experience what they see as good and moral pleasures. They deny themselves the darker pleasure God wants them to enjoy so they keep attracting abusive partners into their lives with each one getting steadily worse.

It is not about forgiveness, compassion, turning the other cheek, or in the case of Buddhism non-attachment. In the above example God wants the person to enjoy abusing and destroying their abusive partner. The denial of the darker pleasures on offer is why they suffer, not because they haven't developed non-attachment.

God is both good and evil, God has created a universe that is both good and evil, God has created people in that universe which are both good and evil, and there are plenty of good and evil pleasures to be enjoyed. God is doing work on us to raise us up, that means having our eyes fully opened to good and evil. The route he takes is to send good and evil pleasures our way for us to enjoy.

[Cultivator of Fa]

6 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

For me denial causes a problem as we are denying what the creator has provided.

I see the best approach as complete and utter indulgence to keep the creator happy. Often the cause of suffering is the wrong way of viewing an event. Altering our perceptions reveals the pleasure we can experience from the event instead, and by enjoying that pleasure we can keep the creator happy.

I maintain that there is pleasure to be gained in every single negative experience, even our own deaths.

Pleasures are not good, but both good and evil. While we might experience pleasure from doing something nice for our partner we also get a darker enjoyment from being mean to a moron. God makes a full range of good and evil pleasures available to us in our lives and expects us to enjoy them. If we resist he doubles down on us to force us to enjoy them.

Take a person who keeps attracting abusive partners into their lives. They are a nice person, a good person, yet their partners all seem to be abusive causing them to suffer. The problem with them is they only allow themselves to experience what they see as good and moral pleasures. They deny themselves the darker pleasure God wants them to enjoy so they keep attracting abusive partners into their lives with each one getting steadily worse.

It is not about forgiveness, compassion, turning the other cheek, or in the case of Buddhism non-attachment. In the above example God wants the person to enjoy abusing and destroying their abusive partner. The denial of the darker pleasures on offer is why they suffer, not because they haven't developed non-attachment.

God is both good and evil, God has created a universe that is both good and evil, God has created people in that universe which are both good and evil, and there are plenty of good and evil pleasures to be enjoyed. God is doing work on us to raise us up, that means having our eyes fully opened to good and evil. The route he takes is to send good and evil pleasures our way for us to enjoy.

I disagree with you on this.

in my understanding, God, Buddha or other enlightened beings are always good, it is human beings who are evil or wicced.

And it is the law of the cosmos that make huan beings feel suffering when we do evil/wicced deeds.

But this is a topic that can be discussed to the end of the world and many will not be agreeing on it

[Duke Wellington]

4 hours ago, Cultivator of Fa said:

I disagree with you on this.

in my understanding, God, Buddha or other enlightened beings are always good, it is human beings who are evil or wicced.

And it is the law of the cosmos that make huan beings feel suffering when we do evil/wicced deeds.

But this is a topic that can be discussed to the end of the world and many will not be agreeing on it

If we go with God creating the universe, that God has created one in which both good and evil are present.

If we look carefully at the Garden of Eden story the snakes gets Adam and Eve to open their eyes to evil, then God comments they have become like us. That is an admission that God has the capacity for evil, and that knowing evil is a quality that a God possesses. Its also an admission that God is not the only one that knows good and evil. How does one gain wisdom of what is good and evil? By indulging. If you read the Bible then Adam was a sinner, Moses was a sinner, Solomon was a sinner, and various others. Jesus had the capacity for evil, he decided to remove himself to the desert for 40 days and 40 nights over it. He got crucified so he got punished for not enjoying a pleasure quite severally. The Church distorts what is written telling us we must be wholly good in our lives, and then invented and inserted hell in to be a claimed as a punishment if we dont. If we actually read the Bible it is full of both good and evil. Its full of all kinds of shenanigans including human sacrifice.

I maintain that life is not how it seems. There is a God constantly watching us, it sends us experiences to enjoy and waits to see us enjoying them. If we dont it ramps up in anger to break us down until we allow ourselves to enjoy the particular experience. When we play ball, when we enjoy the particular good or evil pleasure, we get elevated in life by God. He elevates us up step by step on a journey of knowing good and evil. Until you reach the top, which I presume is the leader of a country.

Our sole purpose in life is to serve our good and evil God by allowing him to turn us into him by getting us to indulge in good and evil pleasures. Society limits our freedom to indulge based on our social standing. Some pleasures are off limits until you rise to the top. If you were President would you drop the bomb? Would you allow yourself to enjoy it? Or work yourself up into state knowing you were sending a million people to their deaths? If you were an Aztec High Priest would you perform human sacrifice to play ball with God? Would press the nuclear Armageddon button?

Edited April 20, 2020 by Cookie Monster