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The Work that God does

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2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I do not know, if I am understanding you correctly, but it seems like you are discussing (or correcting) what I feel most stringing orthodox believers think. And that is, that you don’t have to fight off the enjoyment of materialism and that it’s good for you to do so. I often wondered that myself, and this thought is coming from a person growing up with no religion and it’s tools and traditions. I mean, granted, they’re there and why is that? ;) 

As someone who has had her own New Age/weird spiritual enlightenment and experiences though out her life, I feel there is a freedom from materialism, for the sake of each individual. And to see this, helps one enjoy the materialism more, because there is freedom from the dependence, and it’s heightened the appreciation for them. My opinion is of course, I can’t really see the orthodox in this, there is no basis in my life to see it. There really is no objective clues to show it. Isn’t it interesting, that I have my own opinion of what is there and the reason to what we have in this world? 

How about the fact, the reason we don’t have objective understanding of what ever may have given us this world, maybe is to realize what we do have is not always there to use irresponsibly? I think Xeno’s post #23, is pretty much a great sum up in understand life itself, and I think it’s interesting that we don’t necessarily have to come to that conclusion that it’s because an orthodox God. It could be unorthodox, how I see it, or not at all, in which I think Xeno sees it. 

Does the orthodox God want us to believe we can come to the conclusion with objectively seeing him or not? 

I agree in that materialism, egotism, and hedonism, do not necessarily mean we have to be negative towards other people. Wrongly applied they can, and it is for us to be mindful of the difference and learn about the two. Likewise there are people who enjoy shooting others down because they haven't learned how negativity works within themselves. I think its wrong to live by other peoples expectations or societal ideals because of that. Do what we want, be happy, enjoy it to its maximum, and try to get others doing the same. It is for this reason (and I might attract opposition for saying it) that I think currently the most moral country on the planet is the USA. 

The USA isn't perfect because it doesnt mould or train people to deal with their own negativity. But by giving people as much freedom as possible they are free to enjoy material things, to enjoy what is special about themselves, and to seek out and enjoy whatever brings them pleasure in life. I think the Founding Fathers were very wise and it comes as no surprise to me to find the USA is the leading nation on the planet because of it. It used to be Britain but the `progressive politics` throughout the 20th century has projected ideals onto the population where denial is good, indulgence is wrong. While we are still more moral than most countries we have declined because of it. Individualism is far superior to collectivism.

Whether we believe the universe has come from a God, or non-theistic creative force, it seems to be working quite well for the Americans. All I see when people criticise materialism, egotism, and hedonism, is people trying to promote ideals of self-denial because they themselves are lacking things in life. There is the demonization of other people from them too who enjoy the materialism, the egotism, and the hedonism. Its selfish behaviour where they want to lower everyone else down to their level. Its black and white thinking at its worst. For me when I reflect over the way reality is then I find myself asking what would be the point of living a life of denial rather than indulgence? All that does is lead to unsatisfied people that are miserable in life and bitter towards others because of it.

The way I like to frame things is a super advanced civilization has created the universe. That we have been created inside it to enjoy it. And that what is actually immoral is not playing out our part in the game by enjoying the experience to the maximum. Worse, I think there is a hidden structure buried in reality that confirms back to us how we are. So if we live by denial we attract a lack of things which bring us pleasure back. If we are materialistic, egotistical, and hedonistic, we get back a wealth of material possessions, get to realise we are truly special in life, and get lots of pleasures come our way to enjoy. It has to be done responsibly as in not being negative towards others or we attract back consequences for that too. But essentially reality is about individualism and pleasure.

I do not know if that structure is the result of quantum non-locality, and at this point in history we dont have the technology to investigate most quantum behaviour at the macroscopic level anyway. But from experiences alone I think it is there shaping our lives for us as we go along. Its like a mirror image reflecting back how we are to ourselves with the experiences it sends our way. I also think many other views in society are completely the wrong way around too. Its like people dont take into account the political nature of human beings acting to maximise their pleasure at others expense when it comes to where ideals come from.#

I think you know what I`m trying to say - I`m poor so rich people are bad. I`m ugly so attractive people are monsters. I`m unsuccessful so the successful must be exploitative of others. Once we stop listening to the negativity, once we see through how we are told we should be, we can align ourselves with what the super advanced civilization actually intended for us. And that is the highest morality.

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Alchopwn
Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2020 at 4:38 AM, RabidMongoose said:

I realised that this is Gods universe, not mine, not other peoples, and not societies. Therefore what matters is what God considers good and valuable, not the ideals which are projected onto us. It changed me. I started to enjoy material things, I let myself have a big ego, and I sought out pleasure wherever I could find it. Nothing bad happened at all, in fact it changed my life. 

The universe makes a lot more sense without a guiding divine intelligence than with one superimposed onto facts that make more sense without such.  

On 3/9/2020 at 4:38 AM, RabidMongoose said:

 In my opinion God created us the way that we are to be the way that we are. He created a universe for us to fully enjoy.

I have a simple example of why this is wrong:  Birth defects.  Just because you were lucky, doesn't mean everybody is.  If God wants us to enjoy the world, why include birth defects that cripple you unfairly before your life has even begun?  Face facts, we live in a staggeringly immense, random and  uncaring universe, where we are each a miniscule speck on a tiny world orbiting a small sun in a medium sized galaxy that is one of thousands of billions, and we are scarcely more important than the microbes that we kill every time we breathe in.

Edited by Alchopwn
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Guyver
On 3/8/2020 at 1:08 PM, sci-nerd said:

Do what makes you happy (unless you're a serial killer). Everything else is a waste of life and opportunity.

This ^.

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

The universe makes a lot more sense without a guiding divine intelligence than with one superimposed onto facts that make more sense without such.  

I have a simple example of why this is wrong:  Birth defects.  Just because you were lucky, doesn't mean everybody is.  If God wants us to enjoy the world, why include birth defects that cripple you unfairly before your life has even begun?  Face facts, we live in a staggeringly immense, random and  uncaring universe, where we are each a miniscule speck on a tiny world orbiting a small sun in a medium sized galaxy that is one of thousands of billions, and we are scarcely more important than the microbes that we kill every time we breathe in.

Given that all the rest is true your  last statement is not 

Humans are important because of the potential, which began to evolve as we evolved self aware intelligence  

We are important because of how we think and what we are capable of.

We can be destructive, but we can be constructive/creative  One day we will (if we survive) span the galaxy, altering planets, suns and solar systems Creating living and artificial habitats/ biospheres on planets and in space   Perhaps making life, and directing the evolution of other species.

Artists will sculpt  asteroids and moons as works of art.  

The y will  control the borealis to shape other works of art 

Humans will become virtually immortal, and like the gods we describe in our own myths and legends.

We will genetically engineer ourselves to live underwater and in other atmospheres and different gravities. 

Those things, or others very similar, are inevitable, if humans do not kill themselves off, or are not killed by something like a meteor 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Alchopwn
20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Given that all the rest is true your  last statement is not 

Humans are important because of the potential, which began to evolve as we evolved self aware intelligence  

We are important because of how we think and what we are capable of.

We can be destructive, but we can be constructive/creative  One day we will (if we survive) span the galaxy, altering planets, suns and solar systems Creating living and artificial habitats/ biospheres on planets and in space   Perhaps making life, and directing the evolution of other species.

Artists will sculpt  asteroids and moons as works of art.  

The y will  control the borealis to shape other works of art 

Humans will become virtually immortal, and like the gods we describe in our own myths and legends.

We will genetically engineer ourselves to live underwater and in other atmospheres and different gravities. 

Those things, or others very similar, are inevitable, if humans do not kill themselves off, or are not killed by something like a meteor 

I notice you spared not one sentence to actually address the issue of why God makes birth defects.  Tell me why any baby needs to be born without an eye, or lacks eyelids, or is born without skin?

As to human potential, yeah, sure, Science is wonderful and has opened these doors for us, not some deity.  I would also agree that our species is now in a race to get off the Earth before it gets wiped out by a major catastrophe like a supervolcano or a major meteor impact.  Hopefully we will leave the deities behind when we go, as by then we should have finally outgrown them.

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I notice you spared not one sentence to actually address the issue of why God makes birth defects.  Tell me why any baby needs to be born without an eye, or lacks eyelids, or is born without skin?

As to human potential, yeah, sure, Science is wonderful and has opened these doors for us, not some deity.  I would also agree that our species is now in a race to get off the Earth before it gets wiped out by a major catastrophe like a supervolcano or a major meteor impact.  Hopefully we will leave the deities behind when we go, as by then we should have finally outgrown them.

Because that is a stupid idea :) ( ie that this is the fault or will of a god)

I am an evolutionist so i dont see god's hand in that, but evolution's.

BUT in christian theology those defects did not exist in eden.

Humans were perfect/ immortal and there was no pain, suffering, or death.  Even childbirth was to be painless.

When humans were disconnected from  the power of god (in this creation myth)  things changed. They got very bad (which is why it  is called the fall of man)

How did this separation/fall occur?

Humans had free will and not even god could tell how the y would act.  In the story humans were the only species, on all  the  planets, who were successfully tempted,   showing that we also could have resisted that temptation. 

Thus, it is not god's, but satan's and humanity's, fault that such  evils exist in the world They did not exist  after creation, and the y will not, after the new earth is restored (again in the biblical narrative)

Don't forget that, in the story, thanks to christ's sacrifice, EVERY man woman and child has the opportunity for immortal life in a perfect body and a world without death pain or suffering. All thise lost babies and  deformed children will be reborn in perfect immortal  bodies and be reunited  with their families  (in this story)  

Sure its a myth, but its the other half of the myth about how humans came to  live in pain and suffering, and have a duality of character including good and evil, The story paints a just and merciful god who loves his creations and gave them the abilty to learn grow and mature by giving them free will 

As today(and that' s the real teaching message of the story) WE decide our lives, our fates etc., by the choices we make in our own lives.  Not god, although "he"  can help, advise, and give guidance in how to make the most of a life.  

I doubt humans will ever outgrow faith/ belief etc. It seems to be an evolved cognitive property of the human mind which is beneficial for species survival .

Maybe it will take a form similar to the  Bene Gesserit  In Dune, or the religion of the space navigators of that  story line.

  Religions are like football clubs.They are just a way for like minded people to organise, meet, and find companionship among people of a similar belief 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Alchopwn
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Because that is a stupid idea :) ( ie that this is the fault or will of a god). I am an evolutionist so i dont see god's hand in that, but evolution's.

Well that's convenient.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

BUT in christian theology those defects did not exist in eden.  Humans were perfect/ immortal and there was no pain, suffering, or death.  Even childbirth was to be painless.  When humans were disconnected from  the power of god (in this creation myth)  things changed. They got very bad (which is why it  is called the fall of man)  How did this separation/fall occur?

You can believe in Evolution or Christianity, but not both.  If you believe in Evolution then there is no original sin, as there were no Adam and Eve, as human genetic diversity would be impossible if there was only a single mated pair of humans producing the species.

It is also a stupid story.  Consider...God knows all things...  When God leaves the Garden and introduces the snake, he knows what the outcome will be and does it deliberately... Worse still, Adam and Eve are in a state of innocence, and they don't know the difference between good and evil.  This makes them effectively retarded and unable to stand trial.  They eat the fruit that the talking cloud told them not to, because the snake suggested it was fine.  How were they to know it was the wrong thing to do if they haven't been given the ability to differentiate good and evil ?  How is the talking cloud somehow more reliable than the talking snake?

This is the equivalent of a parent who is raising 2 retarded kids getting a known drug dealer to babysit for them, and then disowning the retarded kids because they tried drugs.  Are the children to blame?  No.  They're not able to reason.  Is the drug dealer to blame ? Yes, but the drug dealer is behaving in a predictable fashion.  The main person at fault however is the parent, who knew what would happen and let it happen, to justify their own sh*tty behavior.

More importantly, this is what cults do, but played out in the actual scripture.  They make believers think that they are somehow to blame for the failures of the organization and its belief.  If your prayers go unanswered, it's your fault not theirs.  If the leader of the cult sodomizes your child, it's your fault for raising a tempter.  It all comes down to the malignant narcissism that lies at the root of religion. 

So god the father abandons humanity when he fails them, and then has to go thru some elaborate make-good episode where he arrives in the form of Jesus to redeem humanity from original sin, when God created that sin, and could just make it irrelevant without the whole sadomasochistic psychodrama of the weird-ass death and resurrection of Jesus.  Plus, it is all B.S., as there was no Adam and Eve, and no original sin,so the Theory of Evolution proves that Jesus died for no reason whatsoever, and makes a mockery of Christianity's core teachings.

Edited by Alchopwn
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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well that's convenient.

You can believe in Evolution or Christianity, but not both.  If you believe in Evolution then there is no original sin, as there were no Adam and Eve, as human genetic diversity would be impossible if there was only a single mated pair of humans producing the species.

It is also a stupid story.  Consider...God knows all things...  When God leaves the Garden and introduces the snake, he knows what the outcome will be and does it deliberately... Worse still, Adam and Eve are in a state of innocence, and they don't know the difference between good and evil.  This makes them effectively retarded and unable to stand trial.  They eat the fruit that the talking cloud told them not to, because the snake suggested it was fine.  How were they to know it was the wrong thing to do if they haven't been given the ability to differentiate good and evil ?  How is the talking cloud somehow more reliable than the talking snake?

This is the equivalent of a parent who is raising 2 retarded kids getting a known drug dealer to babysit for them, and then disowning the retarded kids because they tried drugs.  Are the children to blame?  No.  They're not able to reason.  Is the drug dealer to blame ? Yes, but the drug dealer is behaving in a predictable fashion.  The main person at fault however is the parent, who knew what would happen and let it happen, to justify their own sh*tty behavior.

More importantly, this is what cults do, but played out in the actual scripture.  They make believers think that they are somehow to blame for the failures of the organization and its belief.  If your prayers go unanswered, it's your fault not theirs.  If the leader of the cult sodomizes your child, it's your fault for raising a tempter.  It all comes down to the malignant narcissism that lies at the root of religion. 

So god the father abandons humanity when he fails them, and then has to go thru some elaborate make-good episode where he arrives in the form of Jesus to redeem humanity from original sin, when God created that sin, and could just make it irrelevant without the whole sadomasochistic psychodrama of the weird-ass death and resurrection of Jesus.  Plus, it is all B.S., as there was no Adam and Eve, and no original sin,so the Theory of Evolution proves that Jesus died for no reason whatsoever, and makes a mockery of Christianity's core teachings.

its not convenience but simple truth

Of COURSE you can believe in evolution and be a christian. Indeed around the world the majority of christians probably ARE evolutionists.  Catholicism accepts evolution So do most of the major older  protestant churches  

Christianity is many things including a template for living, a teaching tool, a message of hope and empowerment. It can even be a revolutionary/ liberational    gospel 

The original sin is a story designed to try and explain the dual nature of man. eg why do we know what is right and good, yet so often choose what is wrong and  bad . 

Your reading of the story is wrong.

The story has a purpose and wouldn't have served that purpose if adam and eve were ignorant They knew to obey god. The y knew right from wrong ( a different knowledge from  knowing the nature of good and evil) They had been told the consequences of disobedience The y chose to  believe  satan This is the inner dilemma every human faces every day Do right /do wrong We KNOW the consequences yet still too often. chose wrong The point was tha t they had never EXPERIENCED evil in the garden until they let it in 

The story makes no sense, and is pointless for its purpose, if you read it as you do. Thus it was never written with that meaning  Adam and eve KNEW they  were doing wrong just as we know right from wrong.

  They consciously chose wrong and THEN experienced the knowledge of good and evil Until then they had only known good but probably didn't understand it or the nature of evil.  

If a parent knows a child might take drugs but might not then what does the parent do.

It cant always protect the child so it gives it simple rules and explains the consequences of breaking those rules.   If the child is old enough to  understand thi,s then yes it becomes responsible for its choices and behaviours  even if it doesn't comprehend  the nature or danger of taking drugs  Humans MUST be left to choose right and wrong  and learn frm  experiences   although we can sometimes protect some of them from  excesses.   Adam and eve did not have to eat from  the fruit, nor was it inevitable that the y would do so.

No human HAS to choose evil over good, nor is it inevitable that we should do so,  despite the excuses we make for our human weaknesses   Its allanbouthe power of belief 

Try telling a person whose life was saved empowered or transformed by  belief, that jesus never saved him.

Its irrelevant 

He is saved by the power and effects of his belief  whether or not a divine christ died to save him from  his sins 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

yet so often choose what is wrong and  bad . 

Hi Walker

Ahh no, if it was fun I did it more than twice.:lol: Who says what is wrong and what level do you wish to administrate to? That is like someone asking me if I am naughty what does that mean maybe I am a pervert in your mind and a wallflour in someone else's

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Ahh no, if it was fun I did it more than twice.:lol: Who says what is wrong and what level do you wish to administrate to? That is like someone asking me if I am naughty what does that mean maybe I am a pervert in your mind and a wallflour in someone else's

jmccr8

Things which are wrong are things which if/when acted upon, are destructive, rather than neutral or constructive. They can be measured objectively using criteria- referenced assessment,and thus are not subjective.

  Every action can be assessed in this way Some cause only a little destruction, some a lot Some cause only a little constructive improvements. Some a lot Sometimes there is a balance which needs to be weighed allowing for the degree of outcome and the  number of people who would be affected .  eg is it constructive (good) or destructive (evil)  to torture a terrorist if doing so saves the lives of 10 innocent people.

I make no moral judgements, only judgements about people's behaviours, and the outcomes for them and for others.   I do not believe there are absolute moral or ethical behaviours.

Sometimes, we can not be sure what an outcome will be, but usually we can have a pretty good idea what would happen if we were caught stealing, or cheating on a partner, for example.

   If we can't be certain of an outcome,  we have to logically extrapolate the most likely /probable outcomes of different behaviours 

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Alchopwn
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

its not convenience but simple truth

Of COURSE you can believe in evolution and be a christian. Indeed around the world the majority of christians probably ARE evolutionists.  Catholicism accepts evolution So do most of the major older  protestant churches  

Well perhaps Christians "think" they can be both, but in their typical illogical fashion, they really haven't done their homework or thought anything thru, have they?  How can you believe in evolution if it means Christ is hanging there on the cross with his metaphorical d*ck in his hand, having been tortured and died, not for some divine plan, but for no logical reason whatsoever?  Seriously, if Jesus had legal representation at his trial, he may well have received leniency, but according to the myth, he needed to die on the cross in order to harrow Hell, save the virtuous Pagans, and offer all humanity the chance for redemption from original sin by entering a "new covenant" with him.  If there was no original sin (as evolution, along with gene theory categorically proves), then WTF was he doing?  It makes zero sense!  So yeah, Christians can say they accept evolution, but that only proves that they are enormously ignorant of their own religion, and are likely just as ignorant of science.  In short, they are neither really Christian, nor scientific, a bit like Mary Baker Eddy.  I mean, if you say "I know science is correct about evolution, but I still have faith in Jesus and the Bible", you've failed both sides and supported neither. 

Edited by Alchopwn
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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well perhaps Christians "think" they can be both, but in their typical illogical fashion, they really haven't done their homework or thought anything thru, have they?  How can you believe in evolution if it means Christ is hanging there on the cross with his metaphorical d*ck in his hand, having been tortured and died, not for some divine plan, but for no logical reason whatsoever?  Seriously, if Jesus had legal representation at his trial, he may well have received leniency, but according to the myth, he needed to die on the cross in order to harrow Hell, save the virtuous Pagans, and offer all humanity the chance for redemption from original sin by entering a "new covenant" with him.  If there was no original sin (as evolution, along with gene theory categorically proves), then WTF was he doing?  It makes zero sense!  So yeah, Christians can say they accept evolution, but that only proves that they are enormously ignorant of their own religion, and are likely just as ignorant of science.  In short, they are neither really Christian, nor scientific, a bit like Mary Baker Eddy.  I mean, if you say "I know science is correct about evolution, but I still have faith in Jesus and the Bible", you've failed both sides and supported neither. 

Hey if christians construct a belief then the y can shape that belief to whatever end they like (same for any belief system) 

Creationism is a belief from  ancient times to Darwin's time   Today it requires a LOT of faith to believe in creationism (although its not impossible ) but christianity doesn't require a belief in  creationism to do its job/ play its part, or to help people 

The y take from it that which works for them, and discard what they cannot accept,  scientifically or morally  That is totally  logical 

After all it's not as if it was all real and scientifically proven .  You seem to want to restrict " christianity" to one form which includes a creationist belief.

Your motives  may be pure, but often people trying to create such restrictions tend go ont o say,  "Of course because creationism is not rea,l the whole of christianity is  not real/false and thus discredited. 

It simply doesn't work like that 

for example one can believe in a god form who is not a creator of the universe but a product of it 

for example IF one believes that man's present condition comes from  a separation  form our  physical,  or just an  inner, relationship with a god, then one can easily believe tha t, in sacrificing himself, that god form reunites all who wish to be reunited with it .

For example one can believe, without believing in creationism, that christ presented a template by which ordinary men and women can live, and be empowered by the holy spirit, rather than be trapped in the materialist trials of  their physical  existence (a bit like buddhism)  

One can believe in miracles without believing in creationism 

Nup, you can not box christians  into one box and then say it is a prison  of false belief   That may come form a desire to deny the power and legitimacy of belief and faith, but it doesn't work  There are millions of individual types of christianity, all valid, all powerful and  mostly all constructive.  One person's will differ ( In small or large ways)  from  their neighbours or their parents because their life and experiences are difernt 

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Alchopwn
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Hey if christians construct a belief then the y can shape that belief to whatever end they like (same for any belief system) 

And if it is an incoherent jumble of B.S. that they don't understand, so much the better right?  It all just "adds to the mystery".  That isn't Christianity, that's Halloween.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Creationism is a belief from  ancient times to Darwin's time   Today it requires a LOT of faith to believe in creationism (although its not impossible ) but christianity doesn't require a belief in  creationism to do its job/ play its part, or to help people 

 You say that "it requires a LOT of faith" as if that is somehow a good thing, not a descent into the utter nadir of human gullibility and self deception, which is what it is.  Try calling things by their proper names.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The y take from it that which works for them, and discard what they cannot accept,  scientifically or morally  That is totally  logical 

It's not logical, again with euphemisms instead of calling things by their proper names... What you are referring to is more properly known as "cherry picking".  Cherry picking isn't logical, it is convenience store pick and mix posing as a religion.  The mentality is "I wanna believe in all the good stuff that this religion offers and completely ignore the evil and the harm it does with its faulty beliefs, so I'll pick what I like and reject most of the religion as toxic".  There is another word for that too: hypocrisy.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Your motives  may be pure, but often people trying to create such restrictions tend go onto say,  "Of course because creationism is not real the whole of christianity is not real/false and thus discredited. It simply doesn't work like that 

I am not restricting anybody; they can be as hypocritical and ignorant as they please; if that isn't in the Bill of  Rights, it is sure as hell the subtext of the document.:lol:

What I am demonstrating is that there is no logical way that you can believe in Evolution and also accept the doctrine that Jesus died for the sins of the world.  A=/=B.  These facts are incompatible and utterly contradictory.  I want people to see that, realise the truth of it and make a choice.  A choice between Stalin in the Sky, and all the devices in their homes that help them every day.  A choice between the Big Lie and an overwhelming number of small truths.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

for example one can believe in a god form who is not a creator of the universe but a product of it 

Perhaps, but are you still a Christian if you believe that?  The Bible sure doesn't teach that, and today's lesson is for the Christians, not the New Agers.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

for example IF one believes that man's present condition comes from  a separation  form our  physical,  or just an  inner, relationship with a god, then one can easily believe that, in sacrificing himself, that god form reunites all who wish to be reunited with it .

In one form or another, pretty much every religion teaches something like this in some form or another.  The druids taught the same thing, while performing human sacrifice FFS.  The very latin word re-ligio, means a re-attachment or re-tying/rejoining with the source.  This is not core Christian belief, this is heathenism too.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

For example one can believe, without believing in creationism, that christ presented a template by which ordinary men and women can live, and be empowered by the holy spirit, rather than be trapped in the materialist trials of  their physical  existence (a bit like buddhism)  

Ahem, you do know that you are skirting dangerously close to what Christians call the "unforgivable sin" I hope.  If you bear false witness against the holy spirit by misrepresenting it in some way, you will be barred from heaven, so be careful what you say Mr Walker.  The doctrine of the holy spirit is the hidden core doctrine of Christianity, and the number of people who actually understand it as Jesus meant it in scripture are a miniscule few.  There is a very good reason why a sin against the holy spirit is unforgivable, within doctrine.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

One can believe in miracles without believing in creationism 

True, but don't assume that you are still a Christian by so doing.  You're a cherry picker; a New Ager, and nothing more if this is what you do.  If you are going to be a Christian you need to set the bar a bit higher for yourself.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Nup, you can not box christians  into one box and then say it is a prison  of false belief   That may come form a desire to deny the power and legitimacy of belief and faith, but it doesn't work  There are millions of individual types of christianity, all valid, all powerful and  mostly all constructive.  One person's will differ ( In small or large ways)  from  their neighbours or their parents because their life and experiences are difernt 

Few valid, none powerful, and all working towards the agenda of con artists.

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
On 3/21/2020 at 12:43 AM, Alchopwn said:

And if it is an incoherent jumble of B.S. that they don't understand, so much the better right?  It all just "adds to the mystery".  That isn't Christianity, that's Halloween.

 You say that "it requires a LOT of faith" as if that is somehow a good thing, not a descent into the utter nadir of human gullibility and self deception, which is what it is.  Try calling things by their proper names.

It's not logical, again with euphemisms instead of calling things by their proper names... What you are referring to is more properly known as "cherry picking".  Cherry picking isn't logical, it is convenience store pick and mix posing as a religion.  The mentality is "I wanna believe in all the good stuff that this religion offers and completely ignore the evil and the harm it does with its faulty beliefs, so I'll pick what I like and reject most of the religion as toxic".  There is another word for that too: hypocrisy.

I am not restricting anybody; they can be as hypocritical and ignorant as they please; if that isn't in the Bill of  Rights, it is sure as hell the subtext of the document.:lol:

What I am demonstrating is that there is no logical way that you can believe in Evolution and also accept the doctrine that Jesus died for the sins of the world.  A=/=B.  These facts are incompatible and utterly contradictory.  I want people to see that, realise the truth of it and make a choice.  A choice between Stalin in the Sky, and all the devices in their homes that help them every day.  A choice between the Big Lie and an overwhelming number of small truths.

Perhaps, but are you still a Christian if you believe that?  The Bible sure doesn't teach that, and today's lesson is for the Christians, not the New Agers.

In one form or another, pretty much every religion teaches something like this in some form or another.  The druids taught the same thing, while performing human sacrifice FFS.  The very latin word re-ligio, means a re-attachment or re-tying/rejoining with the source.  This is not core Christian belief, this is heathenism too.

Ahem, you do know that you are skirting dangerously close to what Christians call the "unforgivable sin" I hope.  If you bear false witness against the holy spirit by misrepresenting it in some way, you will be barred from heaven, so be careful what you say Mr Walker.  The doctrine of the holy spirit is the hidden core doctrine of Christianity, and the number of people who actually understand it as Jesus meant it in scripture are a miniscule few.  There is a very good reason why a sin against the holy spirit is unforgivable, within doctrine.

True, but don't assume that you are still a Christian by so doing.  You're a cherry picker; a New Ager, and nothing more if this is what you do.  If you are going to be a Christian you need to set the bar a bit higher for yourself.

Few valid, none powerful, and all working towards the agenda of con artists.

You seem filled with fear and confusion and a totally false understanding of the nature of the relationship which can exist between god and a human being   I guess things in your life evolved you into this being and ste of mind  There is  not much I can do to help you 

One you  dont understand the evolved nature and purpose of faith in the human cognitive process

two you seem to have had some very negative experiences with religion rather than positive ones (or else your  feelings are totally unjustified )  

three. As stated  you want to confine christianity to the version you hate when it encompasses as many forms as there are believers in it  Doing this validates your dislike of it and allows you to express that anger .  I KNOW "god" and what christians  call  the holy spirit  It fills me empowers me, protects, me and strengthens me.  It is a very real and powerful force given in love and must be used in love.

I find it amusing that  you would see me offending it and i have no fear of not going to heaven Heaven and hell are constructs based on understandings of the nature of god and man.

T rue heaven and hell exist here on earth in your mind, and you live either in one or the other, to a greater or lesser degree all your living days.

Im pretty well in a state of heaven every day, thanks to the power of the spirit.   After death ? Who knows. But god's promise is eternal life for all who believe in him I don't believe in him. I live in his presence. He protects and empowers me every day,  so i can't  see him putting me into hell,  even  if it existed and was not just a catholic construction designed to put fear into believers 

. I live a biblical christian life as well (although that is more a way of life than a belief )  But i do so  on christ's advice that the law was made in love FOR me, not to control me. 

 LOL are you a  fire and brimstone believer or a total nonbeliever?

Sometimes the two extremes come together, and close the circle, because fanatics are all much the same.  Oh i see you see religion  as  con on a gullible public

Sorry but i can only feel deep sorrow for such an ill informed opinion.

Faith and belief, and the organised form of those we call religions, is  a critical and integral part of human nature and human consciousness. It evoved for a protective purpose and continues to serve that purpose.

  If some choose to use it for their own gain, that is  normal human behaviour, but not the nature or purpose of faith and religion  

Look a t the lives of "true"  believers and see how powerful, happy and strong their belief makes them, compared to non believers.  .

If it doesn't, then they need to  pick a different variety of the cherry. :)  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Festina
Posted (edited)
On 3/8/2020 at 3:24 PM, XenoFish said:

Language is a form of magick. Both the written and spoken word. 

Yes, and can be used for good or evil purposes.  Gematria magic. Stolen from Egyptians by Moses and corrupted.  

There was Good reason for Secret Societies back in those days — if “the secrets” got into the WRONG HANDS it could prove disastrous — it did and it has.  

 

 

Edited by Festina
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jmccr8
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You seem filled with fear and confusion and a totally false understanding of the nature of the relationship which can exist between god and a human being   I guess things in your life evolved you into this being and ste of mind  There is  not much I can do to help you 

Hi Walker

I don't get that read on him and to be honest he was expressing an opinion and was not asking for help from where I sit.:D

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

One you  dont understand the evolved nature and purpose of faith in the human cognitive process

Or maybe your understanding is not as diverse and might want to expand your horizons.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

two you seem to have had some very negative experiences with religion rather than positive ones (or else your  feelings are totally unjustified )  

Its seems to me that I can and infer that he can understand both aspects and is just speaking his mind.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

three. As stated  you want to confine christianity to the version you hate when it encompasses as many forms as there are believers in it  Doing this validates your dislike of it and allows you to express that anger .  I KNOW "god" and what christians  call  the holy spirit  It fills me empowers me, protects, me and strengthens me.  It is a very real and powerful force given in love and must be used in love.

Okay, sure there is the namby-pamby Christians not unlike yourself that reject more than they accept about biblical doctrine and a true Christian accepts all aspects of the bible even if they have convoluted ideologies about what it says.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry but i can only feel deep sorrow for such an ill informed opinion.

I am sure he reciprocates the feeling.:lol:

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Faith and belief, and the organised form of those we call religions, is  a critical and integral part of human nature and human consciousness. It evoved for a protective purpose and continues to serve that purpose.

At some time we grow into those long pants and take responsibility for our individual responses and actions without looking for a get out of jail free card.

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Look a t the lives of "true"  believers and see how powerful, happy and strong their belief makes them, compared to non believers.  .

If it doesn't, then they need to  pick a different variety of the cherry. :)  

You know this is why I love you, you have a limited view of the world around you.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I don't get that read on him and to be honest he was expressing an opinion and was not asking for help from where I sit.:D

Or maybe your understanding is not as diverse and might want to expand your horizons.

Its seems to me that I can and infer that he can understand both aspects and is just speaking his mind.

Okay, sure there is the namby-pamby Christians not unlike yourself that reject more than they accept about biblical doctrine and a true Christian accepts all aspects of the bible even if they have convoluted ideologies about what it says.

I am sure he reciprocates the feeling.:lol:

At some time we grow into those long pants and take responsibility for our individual responses and actions without looking for a get out of jail free card.

You know this is why I love you, you have a limited view of the world around you.

jmccr8

Not a limited view, but a selective view.I see all views and choose one. 

I select things which work best, are the most constructive, and  bring the best results for me 

In general (but not always)  because i am human, they will also have the same effect on other human beings 

Indeed i was reading him through my own experiences, beliefs and views.

You did the same.

Becsue we are difernt we come to different conclusions.

Quite understandable. 

There IS no ONE biblical truth.

Every human reads and interprets it from  their own perspective, or follows the doctrines and theologies of their chosen church 

I don't see why you think being a believer is less adult, or indeed abrogates one from  personal responsibility.  For me  the presence of god  increases my personal responsibility to others, to the planet and to other species. 

Edited by Mr Walker
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jmccr8
14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Not a limited view, but a selective view.I see all views and choose one. 

Hi Walker

For me selective means unwilling to consider broader aspects of an issue objectively and thus limit the quality of a discussion forum rules permitting.

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I select things which work best, are the most constructive, and  bring the best results for me 

Of course that is what we all do but your environment and mine have significant differences that would account for our objective perceptions and how they have some common elements but vastly different in others. Sometimes I don't have time to trust anything and make a decision based on experience. Read the backside of that print I gave you, Sheri and Liquid Gardens to my face Wilf told me that he loved me because I never said you can't do that to him and I showed him what we needed to do to make that happen.

30 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You did the same.

Becsue we are difernt we come to different conclusions.

Quite understandable. 

Yes and I discount that some find him a little bit more frank than others in how he expresses his opinion but in my mind that is not a detriment to how I read his posts.

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Indeed i was reading him through my own experiences, beliefs and views.

You did the same.

Becsue we are difernt we come to different conclusions.

Quite understandable.

On this we agree

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Every human reads and interprets it from  their own perspective, or follows the doctrines and theologies of their chosen church

That may be true and fortunately we can read and learn to step beyond our known understanding of self and as an objective reader I ask and challenge to see the value of a position and do not need to hold one myself which is why myself and others are here as objective observers.

43 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

There IS no ONE biblical truth.

Well really if you look at all of our years of discussion you will find me challenging aspects of religious constructs but I never chastise someone for having that faith in a construct and am more focused on why. Fortunately there are far smarter people who ask my questions first so I can ride in the back top down hair blowing in the wind.:D

50 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Every human reads and interprets it from  their own perspective, or follows the doctrines and theologies of their chosen church 

Yeah, well you know I don't have a church and that for me we create potential and realize it and that is god because we create. Pretty simple concept so there doesn't need anyone to die for it, has no problem with science and is adaptable to incite change. Get up put your boots on eat and strap up for another day of unpredictability same as the last thousands of days I opened my eyes.:D

57 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't see why you think being a believer is less adult, or indeed abrogates one from  personal responsibility.  For me  the presence of god  increases my personal responsibility to others, to the planet and to other species

I have never said that so that is why you can't see it. I question you about what you say even to the point of opening a thread where we could have these discussions without derailing a thread, in that thread we can go anywhere.

jmccr8

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Alchopwn
21 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

One you  dont understand the evolved nature and purpose of faith in the human cognitive process

Of course I do.  Faith serves as a security blanket for people who are supposed to be adults. Also your numbering system leaves much to be desired; namely numerals and punctuation.

21 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

two you seem to have had some very negative experiences with religion rather than positive ones (or else your  feelings are totally unjustified )  

 I'm sure some pickpockets are lovely company, but that doesn't mean they aren't thieves.

21 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

three. As stated  you want to confine christianity to the version you hate when it encompasses as many forms as there are believers in it  Doing this validates your dislike of it and allows you to express that anger .  I KNOW "god" and what christians  call  the holy spirit  It fills me empowers me, protects, me and strengthens me.  It is a very real and powerful force given in love and must be used in love.

On the contrary, Christianity is always an excuse for thieves and liars to play fast and loose with the gullible, and that encompasses all variations of the faith.  As to my anger, well, how is one supposed to feel about unprosecuted criminals?  And as to your understanding of the holy spirit, nope, not even close.  That is the pap that is served up to laymembers who never do their homework, and is essentially an appeal to their sentimentalism, and as divorced from the holy spirit as your average non-consecrated house brick.  In short, you don't get it.

21 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I find it amusing that  you would see me offending it and i have no fear of not going to heaven Heaven and hell are constructs based on understandings of the nature of god and man.

Well, apparently you have utterly misunderstood the holy spirit, so you are probably safe from being able to sin against it.  Good for you.  You think it is some sort of feel-good-happy-clappy nonsense that makes you feel empowered, when in fact that is just your ego being buoyed up by a release of brain chemistry caused by a reference to ritual. I am happy to say there is absolutely no way you can ever hope to either know or offend against the holy spirit, as the central mystery of Christianity is utterly outside your experience, and you are a mere enthusiast.

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

True heaven and hell exist here on earth in your mind, and you live either in one or the other, to a greater or lesser degree all your living days.

So you are saying that they don't actually exist, and are allegories?  Then why pretend they do?

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Im pretty well in a state of heaven every day, thanks to the power of the spirit.   After death ? Who knows. But god's promise is eternal life for all who believe in him I don't believe in him. I live in his presence. He protects and empowers me every day,  so i can't  see him putting me into hell,  even  if it existed and was not just a catholic construction designed to put fear into believers 

Card Zero, and good luck to you.  Don't worry about the actual doctrine, you just carry on cherry picking.  Hell is only in your mind, but what happens to your mind when you die with false doctrine?

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I live a biblical christian life as well (although that is more a way of life than a belief )  But i do so  on christ's advice that the law was made in love FOR me, not to control me. 

Don't kid yourself.  Christ didn't come to abolish the law, but to complete it with even more restrictions and clarifications.  No doubt you will go to hell for wearing synthetic blends.

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

LOL are you a  fire and brimstone believer or a total nonbeliever?

Yours is a god that claims to be a god of love, but is actually a god of ruthless hatred who demands utter slavery of worshippers on pain of eternal torment for finite infractions.  I don't happen to believe in that deity, but you should, because that is what you are actually worshipping.  You worship the epitome of totalitarian savagery, bus somehow expect it to be "nice" to you.  Was Stalin "nice" to his followers?  Or did he use and dispose of them at his convenience like so much toilet paper?

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sometimes the two extremes come together, and close the circle, because fanatics are all much the same.  Oh i see you see religion  as  con on a gullible public

I make no secret of this obvious fact.  Do you dispute it?  Seriously?

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry but i can only feel deep sorrow for such an ill informed opinion.

Well, what can I say ? I can point out the obvious, but some people are determined to be fooled all of the time no matter what, and treat a helpful hint that they should reconsider their position as a personal affront.  Of course THEY can't be fooled.  THEY aren't the gullible ones.  The con artists haven't fooled THEM.  Which is exactly the narcissistic arrogance that a con artist relies upon in their victims in order to continue their grift.

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Faith and belief, and the organised form of those we call religions, is  a critical and integral part of human nature and human consciousness. It evoved for a protective purpose and continues to serve that purpose.

Actually no.  They are not part of the brain that activates during a religious service is the part of the brain that activates during night terrors.  All the same, it is just brain chemistry being activated, nothing miraculous is going on.  Religions are cultural btw, and not a product of biological evolution save that they are subject to cultural evolution.  Suffice to say that the religion of Jesus has nothing to do with what Christians today are doing.

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If some choose to use it for their own gain, that is  normal human behaviour, but not the nature or purpose of faith and religion  

Are we talking Simony or Spiritual Materialism?  Or just the straight con of using religion to separate fools from their money?

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Look a t the lives of "true"  believers and see how powerful, happy and strong their belief makes them, compared to non believers.  .

This is what confirms me in atheism every day.  I look at these terrified conformist religious herd cretins, all desperately looking to other people to okay their actions, all coughing up their hard earned dough as willing victims of an insidious form of class warfare waged by a class of malignant narcissists who rape their children, and I feel pretty good about my choices in life.  Doubt is infinitely more healthy than belief.

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If it doesn't, then they need to  pick a different variety of the cherry. :)  

But then they will burn in hell for all eternity as that is what they are programmed to do.

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Piney
20 hours ago, Festina said:

 Gematria magic. Stolen from Egyptians by Moses and corrupted.  

Except Moses didn't exist.

The Egyptians never practiced Gematria which didn't exist until about 200 AD

The Hebrews and Judaism have no concept of Spiritual Energy.

.....Yet the Egyptians did. 

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Festina
3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Except Moses didn't exist.

 

I disagree, respectfully.

That’s what some peeps want some peeps to believe.  Why?  Because it seems the real Moses was a villain and no hero.

Osarseph, rogue high priest of Heliopolis, trained  in ritual magic.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osarseph

 

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Piney
9 minutes ago, Festina said:

Osarseph, rogue high priest of Heliopolis, trained  in ritual magic.  

Also fictional.......

10 minutes ago, Festina said:

  Why?  Because it seems the real Moses was a villain and no hero.

Who never existed......

and it's not what somebody want's me to believe......It's archaeological evidence on top of a thorough examination of the Mosaic Books. 

I can take the Old Testament completely apart. Show you every fiction. I can do the same thing with the NT. 

I wasn't taught to believe anything I was taught to seek the truth. I wasn't raised in the idiotic Western religious traditions of "don't ask" and "blind faith". 

Gematria didn't exist until the Tannaic Period and was created from Roman Numerology. End of ****ing story......

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onlookerofmayhem
29 minutes ago, Festina said:

I disagree, respectfully.

That’s what some peeps want some peeps to believe.  Why?  Because it seems the real Moses was a villain and no hero.

Osarseph, rogue high priest of Heliopolis, trained  in ritual magic.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osarseph

 

Per your link :

"Osarseph /ˈzərˌsɛf/ or Osarsiph /ˈzərˌsɪf/ (Koinē Greek: Ὀσαρσίφ) is a legendary figure of Ancient Egypt who has been equated with Moses."

"Also much debated is the question of what, if any, historical reality might lie behind the Osarseph story."

So my question is, how do you come to the conclusion that this story has any historical validity?

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Piney
2 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

So my question is, how do you come to the conclusion that this story has any historical validity?

Self projecting...vvvvvvvv

36 minutes ago, Festina said:

That’s what some peeps want some peeps to believe. 

She rather blindly believe some Theosophist's dreck, than do some serious long term study.

 

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Festina
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Per your link :

"Osarseph /ˈzərˌsɛf/ or Osarsiph /ˈzərˌsɪf/ (Koinē Greek: Ὀσαρσίφ) is a legendary figure of Ancient Egypt who has been equated with Moses."

"Also much debated is the question of what, if any, historical reality might lie behind the Osarseph story."

So my question is, how do you come to the conclusion that this story has any historical validity?

Manetho, what’s left of his work as expressed in Josephus’s work and the Bible, observing the the world and ,it’s humanity and it’s machinations, the endless wars, central banking; Deuteronomy 15, 15:6 in particular,  the Abrahamic religions as a group and their laws and studying the philosophies and religions of others. Wiki is controlled opostion.  I used it as an introduction to Osarseph to encourage investigation, thinking, discernment, dissecting and digesting —  Abstract thought. 

Edited by Festina

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