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YeshuaFan

Did John Keel and Jaques Vallee get it right?

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YeshuaFan

Been reading their books now, and seems that both of them got it right in regards to "Cosmic Trickster" element!

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Piney
7 minutes ago, YeshuaFan said:

Been reading their books now, and seems that both of them got it right in regards to "Cosmic Trickster" element!

:huh:

Yes, because a higher being would be a childish dick and make Q from STNG look mature. :blink:

In all seriousness both authors mis-interpreted the whole concept of the African and Native American trickster. 

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YeshuaFan
1 hour ago, Piney said:

:huh:

Yes, because a higher being would be a childish dick and make Q from STNG look mature. :blink:

In all seriousness both authors mis-interpreted the whole concept of the African and Native American trickster. 

I think though that both nailed the truth of this not being normal physical reality that humans have been forced to deal with since our prehistory!

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Rlyeh
Posted (edited)

I've got some of Jacques Vallee's books and he attributes everything from religious experiences to UFOs to some inter-dimensional intelligence native to Earth (even suggests the possibility of humans from the future).

While he brings up some interesting ideas, he tends to lump everything together.

Edited by Rlyeh

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freetoroam

Oh yes John Keel, didn't he write "Are You A Repressed Sex Fiend?"

Quote

In 1967, Keel popularized the term "men In black" in an article for the men's adventure magazine Saga,

And he did the mothman story.

Jacque Vallee

Quote

first noted for a defense of the scientific legitimacy of the extraterrestrial hypothesisand later for promoting the interdimensional hypothesis.

Two educated men who found out they could make more money out of fantasy stories.

32 minutes ago, YeshuaFan said:

I think though that both nailed the truth of this not being normal physical reality that humans have been forced to deal with since our prehistory!

What exactly is the " this not being normal" ?ķ

 

Also what do you mean by "humans have been forced to deal with since our prehistory" ?

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YeshuaFan
24 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Oh yes John Keel, didn't he write "Are You A Repressed Sex Fiend?"

And he did the mothman story.

Jacque Vallee

Two educated men who found out they could make more money out of fantasy stories.

What exactly is the " this not being normal" ?ķ

 

Also what do you mean by "humans have been forced to deal with since our prehistory" ?

Ufos and just things like Bigfoot, Nessie in general!

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YeshuaFan
44 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

I've got some of Jacques Vallee's books and he attributes everything from religious experiences to UFOs to some inter-dimensional intelligence native to Earth (even suggests the possibility of humans from the future).

While he brings up some interesting ideas, he tends to lump everything together.

Their theory makes far morre sense that nuts and bolts flying saucers and Aliens!

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Rlyeh
1 minute ago, YeshuaFan said:

Their theory makes far morre sense that nuts and bolts flying saucers and Aliens!

Not even close, the theory is lazy reasoning, argument from incredulity.

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Rlyeh

Anything I don't understand, the boogeyman did it.  That's effectively their theory.

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19_Kilo
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, YeshuaFan said:

Ufos and just things like Bigfoot, Nessie in general!

Nessie? Really?

Debunked over decades ago. The hoaxters even admitted doing so and explained how they did it for the famous pic.

Including Nessie as a part of any sort of global or universal conspiracy theory causes the claimer's credibility to take a major hit. So bad that an auto mechanic would deem it "catastrophic engine failure."  It's as bad as a guy who claims to be be a PhD in Astrophysics saying he believes in Astrology.

 

http://hoaxes.org/photo_database/image/the_surgeons_photo/

Edited by Tuco's Gas
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Rlyeh
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Tuco's Gas said:

Nessie? Really?

Debunked over decades ago. The hoaxters even admitted doing so and explained how they did it for the famous pic.

Including Nessie as a part of any sort of global or universal conspiracy theory causes the claimer's credibility to take a major hit. So bad that an auto mechanic would deem it "catastrophic engine failure."  It's as bad as a guy who claims to be be a PhD in Astrophysics saying he believes in Astrology.

One book Vallee implies hoaxes committed by humans are part of this "inter-dimensional intelligence" plan.  In his "Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults", Vallee's suggests virtually every human action related to UFOs/paranormal is completely intended.

Edited by Rlyeh
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19_Kilo
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

One book Vallee implies hoaxes committed by humans are part of this "inter-dimensional intelligence" plan.

Yeah, old trick by woo peddlers. It's called "covering all the bases." Or "turning the tables" on your debunkers by using their damning facts as grief for your BS mill.

The godists and especially the Christian zealots do the same thing all the time. Their claims on the efficacy of prayer is one example. They now think they can prove that god hears and answers ALL prayers!  See, even when their prayers are denied they just say "sometimes god just says 'no.'"

Or they'll take ANY conceivable event in their lives and say it was God's will. From a job loss to getting a loan to winning a golf tournament. WTF?

How can such amazing triviality and nonsensical circular logic be refuted? It cannot. Just like Carl Sagan's "Invisible Dragon in My Garage."

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

Edited by Tuco's Gas
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Rlyeh
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Tuco's Gas said:

Yeah, old trick by woo peddlers. It's called "covering all the bases." Or "turning the tables" on your debunkers by using their damning facts as grief for your BS mill.

The godists and especially the Christian zealots do the same thing all the time. Their claims on the efficacy of prayer is one example. They now think they can prove that god hears and answers ALL prayers!  See, even when their prayers are denied they just say "sometimes god just says 'no.'"

Or they'll take ANY conceivable event in their lives and say it was God's will. From a job loss to getting a loan to winning a golf tournament. WTF?

How can such amazing triviality and nonsensical circular logic be refuted? It cannot. Just like Carl Sagan's "Invisible Dragon in My Garage."

I agree it's confirmation bias, Vallee is too quick to connect any paranormal/UFO story to some omniscient boogeyman.

Edited by Rlyeh
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Piney
2 hours ago, YeshuaFan said:

I think though that both nailed the truth of this not being normal physical reality that humans have been forced to deal with since our prehistory!

Because they don't know how to create their own reality. 

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YeshuaFan
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

Not even close, the theory is lazy reasoning, argument from incredulity.

Their theory accounts for jsut why there have been so many different aliens seen, with how people experience loss of time, and how we seem to be the butt end of a Cosmic joke!

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YeshuaFan
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

One book Vallee implies hoaxes committed by humans are part of this "inter-dimensional intelligence" plan.  In his "Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults", Vallee's suggests virtually every human action related to UFOs/paranormal is completely intended.

Both him and Keel seem to feel that those "others" have set up Ufo cults as way to spread misinformation!

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YeshuaFan
51 minutes ago, Piney said:

Because they don't know how to create their own reality. 

No one does!

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YeshuaFan
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

I agree it's confirmation bias, Vallee is too quick to connect any paranormal/UFO story to some omniscient boogeyman.

If one buys into there being beings who exist outside our frame of references, called angels and demons, starts to make real sense!

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Piney
1 minute ago, YeshuaFan said:

No one does!

Any Shaman, Chaote, Vodou Houngan or Zen Buddhist Priest worth his salt does. :yes:

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Rlyeh
12 minutes ago, YeshuaFan said:

Their theory accounts for jsut why there have been so many different aliens seen, with how people experience loss of time, and how we seem to be the butt end of a Cosmic joke!

Again it's lumping everything unexplained as the boogeyman.

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Rlyeh
15 minutes ago, YeshuaFan said:

If one buys into there being beings who exist outside our frame of references, called angels and demons, starts to make real sense!

According to Vallee, angels and demons are another façade used by this "inter-dimensional intelligence" to shape human belief.

It's a convenient explanation with no verifiable evidence. 

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Rlyeh

Vallee asserts that God(s)/angels/demons/fairies/aliens/etc are all manifestations of some inter-dimensional intelligence in order to manipulate humanity.

His reasoning is the stories all share similarities, and alien abductions are the modern iteration of religious experiences.

To me all he is doing is cherry-picking anything that looks similar and lumping them under one explanation.

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WanderingFool0

Well one could consider lumping everything in together, but I don’t know if I agree. There are a few common threads that weave through out the trickster phenomena that does seem to draw many different paranormal phenomena back to a similar cause, event or type of being and how it interacts with humanity. All across the world and not just in the America’s or Africa, almost every culture on the planet was at one time followers of a more animistic and shamanic traditions and in all those core cultures share a similar being, that despite the difference in name appear and act the same, with similar modus operendi.

The common threads or characteristics of these beings are.

1. They come from somewhere else and are able to appear and disappear in and out of our reality at will. Sometimes they are able to take humans into their world and humans who have returned claim even time does not work the same there.

2. They are able to change their shape and form at will taking on many guises.

3. They are able to paralyze, hypnotize and entrance human beings at will.

4. Sometimes they take humans for long periods of time and return them with no memory; missing time.

5. They often seem preoccupied in both human and animal husbandry; including mating their livestock with human livestock and even mating with and intermingling with humans. The children of such unions often become men and women of re known.

6. There seems to be divisions of thought towards humans within their people. Some, can be benevolent, some indifferent and some downright malevolent towards human. However they act towards humans their own interests and motives take priority over human feelings and wellbeing.

If you take that list and look through the legends of almost all cultures you find a classification in their culture for such a being. The daimon, the djinn, the fairie, the dakini, the luung, the naga, the oni and many, many more. If you look at all the legends of those beings they all share these common threads and would seem to be at the least a very similar phenomena.

Of course if one looks at what abducties say about the greys and other aliens, than you find that even they seem to share these same common threads with the others. The trickster/spirit people.

In any case I don't think Keel and Vallee's ideas about UFOs are all that far fetched or lazy.

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Piney
4 minutes ago, WanderingFool0 said:

The common threads or characteristics of these beings are.

 

Brother Rabbit (Wiikimokiis) and Aunt Nancy (Anansi) have none of those characteristics...... 

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YeshuaFan
51 minutes ago, Piney said:

Any Shaman, Chaote, Vodou Houngan or Zen Buddhist Priest worth his salt does. :yes:

Or word of faith!

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