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XenoFish

Subjectivity and Spirituality

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XenoFish

Are we seeing the whole picture? Maybe, maybe not. Are we seeing what we expect to see, probably. Our experiences are subjective, personal, and what we believe and what we expect shape that subjective experience. So is anything true, anything real? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We know objective things happen. No amount of wishful thinking will make the pandemic vanish or magically make bill get paid. We know that much is true. In regards to spirituality, exactly how much is objective and how much subjective. Two people experience the same event, one calls it a miracle, the other good luck. Same thing two different meanings. How do we find a solid middle ground then? 

Thoughts.

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Will do

 

Maybe a good place to start is just being kind to one another. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

So you advocate being kind to malefactors who steal from and mislead other people?  If you are always turning the other cheek, you will rapidly have turned all 4, and will likely garner the reputation as being a bit of a push-over.  Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, like a doctor excising a tumor.

 

See. That was a kind way of making an important point. Thank you. I agree with you.

 

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Alchopwn
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

See. That was a kind way of making an important point. Thank you. I agree with you.

You do realise there was a spanked ass joke in there...?

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

You do realise there was a spanked ass joke in there...?

 

Yes. It gave me a chuckle. Because what I see here most of all is that we are generally always misunderstanding what someone else is doing and trying to say. Myself included. Mainly due to the aweful strain we all possess to retaliate. I'm gonna do my best to change that in me. We are discussing the subjectivity of spirituality aren't we?

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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XenoFish
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Is there a middle ground when it comes to subjective experiences?  We all have our programs and bias with the way we think, colored by our fears and wishes.  We can't even all agree that the earth orbits around the sun and is mostly spherical in spite of having tools to determine that it is, including space ships and satellites in orbit around the planet.  The way one thinks is a choice, everyone chooses how and what they think.  Some don't want to take responsibility for that choice and others insist on it.

We all see a tree, what do we think about this tree. Do we agree that it's autumn colors are beautiful? Do we even like this particular tree? One thing we do know is that the tree exist. That's the middle ground. The way I see it is that beliefs and expectations shape peoples perception. 

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Are we seeing the whole picture? Maybe, maybe not. Are we seeing what we expect to see, probably. Our experiences are subjective, personal, and what we believe and what we expect shape that subjective experience. So is anything true, anything real? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We know objective things happen. No amount of wishful thinking will make the pandemic vanish or magically make bill get paid. We know that much is true. In regards to spirituality, exactly how much is objective and how much subjective. Two people experience the same event, one calls it a miracle, the other good luck. Same thing two different meanings. How do we find a solid middle ground then? 

Thoughts.

For me: subjectivity is the aspect of us that is self aware that looks at mentations as the knower of the speaker for the contents of ones mind, often an opinion not always  based in fact.

The tree example is a mix of both subjectivity and objectivity.. We agree to “the facts” that there is a tree, that one sees beauty in that tree or even likes the tree is as you pointed out ones opinion about the tree is subjective it doesn’t have to be factual as it’s just ones thoughts about it. 
 

When a poster responds to “I know” as their argument it is based on a mentation or their opinion, I take this as they have shifted to using their opinion, their sense impressions as opposed to facts, as the conclusion, 
 

An ex: Many of my friends are cleaning their closets donating to help a family sell things on posh mark as they both lost their jobs. I have been needing  a robe as of late. 
 

In the donations: I found one.

The subjective part of me could say the universe heard me and sent me a robe and I could ascribe all kinds of scripture to support that indeed god always hears my prayers and got this robe to me, I am so special and loved and looked out for. 
Tee hee, geez how many of these claims do we hear on here everyday? 

The objective part of me would conclude based on the facts that the chances of a rich housewife having a spa robe from her last trip to Spain that she probably was charged for and has no use for is more like it. 
 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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joc
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Are we seeing the whole picture?

If there is a  'whole picture'...it exists in the form of one moment called Now.  We like to slice Now up into an infinite amount of moments but in reality...there is only one.  We can experience subjectivity only through the lens of the past or the future.  Our expectations are only an anticipation of a future that doesn't even exist.  We  can anticipate the future Now...or we remember the past Now...neither exists.  The reality of our Universe is not subjective.  H20 = water, not some of the time but all of the time.

Many of us are not happy only existing in The Now.  Now is not where we want to be...or it isn't what we think it should be...so we remember different versions of Now or we anticipate different versions of Now.   And if we remember a different version of Now...we might want someone to punish someone for that version...or we might want someone or ourselves to be rewarded at some point...enter...Spirituality.   Now is real.  Spirituality is a creation of our own minds that has no bearing on reality.  It only serves to make us feel better about The Now.  Now doesn't really care about what you feel...or if you feel...or even if you exist.  Now is very, very real.  As real as it gets.  And it is always Now.

:) Hoppy Easter :)

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, joc said:

If there is a  'whole picture'...it exists in the form of one moment called Now.  We like to slice Now up into an infinite amount of moments but in reality...there is only one.  We can experience subjectivity only through the lens of the past or the future.  Our expectations are only an anticipation of a future that doesn't even exist.  We  can anticipate the future Now...or we remember the past Now...neither exists.  The reality of our Universe is not subjective.  H20 = water, not some of the time but all of the time.

Many of us are not happy only existing in The Now.  Now is not where we want to be...or it isn't what we think it should be...so we remember different versions of Now or we anticipate different versions of Now.   And if we remember a different version of Now...we might want someone to punish someone for that version...or we might want someone or ourselves to be rewarded at some point...enter...Spirituality.   Now is real.  Spirituality is a creation of our own minds that has no bearing on reality.  It only serves to make us feel better about The Now.  Now doesn't really care about what you feel...or if you feel...or even if you exist.  Now is very, very real.  As real as it gets.  And it is always Now.

:) Hoppy Easter :)

Dazamn, word. :nw:

Indeed, some prefer reality as it is good and bad. 
 

Marshaling a quote, to illustrate that living in the now too is a lifestyle and a way to cope. tee hee.

“Whatever the present moment contains accept it as if you had chosen it” Eckhart Tolle 

Wanting the life you do have with no bells and whistles, just as is. The less the rationalizations the more the person lives in the now. IMHO
 

Great post Joc. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Posted (edited)

 

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Two people experience the same event, one calls it a miracle, the other good luck. Same thing two different meanings. How do we find a solid middle ground then? 

 

Maybe it's as simple as recognizing that everyone's life experiences are subjective by nature and that there may not be a right or wrong way of going about things ultimately. The same thing with who qualifies to be resurrected in an afterlife, if one exists.

In a way, I cannot wrap my brain around some not making it. I've never met an atheist who wasn't spiritual in some way. Either everyone makes it, or nobody makes it. Afterall we're all supposed to be God's children. Loved and cared for. And never abandoned. 

Everyone was born weren't they? No one who's alive or who's ever lived had anything to do with being born did they? So if that's true, why would we have anything to do with being resurrected in an afterlife? It could simply be that divine judgement is misunderstood. If the universe is infinite and eternal, then it's got a lot of room (and time) for everyone to work things out.

Sorry for going off topic. It's just something I've been thinking a lot about lately. For some reason, I don't see how, if God really is merciful and forgiving and those other terrible things written about him are just plain wrong, that we won't all end up living on and on. Even you Alchopwn.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

 

Maybe it's as simple as recognizing that everyone's life experiences are subjective by nature and that there may not be a right or wrong way of going about things ultimately. The same thing with who qualifies to be resurrected in an afterlife, if one exists.

In a way, I cannot wrap my brain around some not making it. I've never met an atheist who wasn't spiritual in some way. Either everyone makes it, or nobody makes it. Afterall we're all supposed to be God's children. Loved and cared for. And never abandoned. 

Everyone was born weren't they? No one who's alive or who's ever lived had anything to do with being born did they? So if that's true, why would we have anything to do with being resurrected in an afterlife? It could simply be that divine judgement is misunderstood. If the universe is infinite and eternal, then it's got a lot of room (and time) for everyone to work things out.

Sorry for going off topic. It's just something I've been thinking a lot about lately. For some reason, I don't see how, if God really is merciful and forgiving and those other terrible things written about him are just plain wrong, that we won't all end up living on and on. Even you Alchopwn.

 

 

Wait? Did you actually respond in a non-evasive way?

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Will do

 

I'm just trying to reciprocate what I've been seeing you do lately Xeno. :tu:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

 

Maybe it's as simple as recognizing that everyone's life experiences are subjective by nature and that there may not be a right or wrong way of going about things ultimately. The same thing with who qualifies to be resurrected in an afterlife, if one exists.

In a way, I cannot wrap my brain around some not making it. I've never met an atheist who wasn't spiritual in some way. Either everyone makes it, or nobody makes it. Afterall we're all supposed to be God's children. Loved and cared for. And never abandoned. 

Everyone was born weren't they? No one who's alive or who's ever lived had anything to do with being born did they? So if that's true, why would we have anything to do with being resurrected in an afterlife? It could simply be that divine judgement is misunderstood. If the universe is infinite and eternal, then it's got a lot of room (and time) for everyone to work things out.

Sorry for going off topic. It's just something I've been thinking a lot about lately. For some reason, I don't see how, if God really is merciful and forgiving and those other terrible things written about him are just plain wrong, that we won't all end up living on and on. Even you Alchopwn.

 

 

Subjectively, we are sharing about the life we have and how we cope with it. IMHO
 

For some, the harder the life meaning there is a lot about it that feels uncertain or unknown , the more one looks for something they can control and manipulate of course, their perception, is the first thing to be influenced. The issue is it is exhausting to defend, rationalize, pretend, deny and and preach how they keep out the facts. The facts often do set one free. 
 

Then there  are posters Stubbs and Hammerclaw who get this, they do not eliminate using their subjective prowess to help them through. IMHO

Will, many of us have been you in our own ways. I used to preach veganism for crimes sake.
 

It is good to see you questioning and participating as your authentic self.. Keep it up. 


 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

“Whatever the present moment contains accept it as if you had chosen it” Eckhart Tolle 

I really like Echhart Tolle.  I've read some of his stuff and we tend to think about things in the same light.  :)  When he discovered 'now'...he was down and out and more or less at the bottom...he realized that Right Now...he didn't have any problems.  It changed his entire life.   

I look at life as a picture book of events.  Some people drag an entire train full of books filled with pictures of all of the 'bad things' that have ever happened.  They like to stop from time to time and look at their books and show them to others.  Constantly living in the past.  

And then there are those that need to be where they are going faster than the speed limit allows.  I can't help but think if they knew they were going to die today, they might slow down a bit...but, alas...they live in the future constantly.  The Past and the Future.  Both are subjective.  Neither exists.  Spirituality...subjective.  Move along people, nothing objective to see there...

Edited by joc
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, joc said:

Some people drag an entire train full of books filled with pictures of the 'bad things that have ever happened. 

 

Perhaps but most people I think, are in the middle (I hope most people are anyway) filling their books with pictures of the good things that have happened too.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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10 minutes ago, joc said:

I really like Echhart Tolle.  I've read some of his stuff and we tend to think about things in the same light.  :)  When he discovered 'now'...he was down and out and more or less at the bottom...he realized that Right Now...he didn't have any problems.  It changed his entire life.   

I look at life as a picture book of events.  Some people drag an entire train full of books filled with pictures of the 'bad things that have ever happened.  They like to stop from time to time and look at their books and show them to others.  Constantly living in the past.  

And then there are those that need to be where they are going faster than the speed limit allows.  I can't help but think if they knew they were going to die today, they might slow down a bit...but, alas...they live in the future constantly.  The Past and the Future.  Both are subjective.  Neither exists.  Spirituality...subjective.  Move along people, nothing objective to see there...

I have only read the ”Power of Now”  

My take away was use death as a way to live fully in the moment make sure I have the life I  want and know what I can and cannot tolerate and make revisions. 
In other words, accept it all as it is, go from there. 

For ex:  critical thinking, one  considers it all and then eliminates ( Okham’s razor) to the simplistic solutions the ones with the fewest assumptions tends to be practical. 
 

I think it is useful and viable to use both subjective and objectivity at times. 
 

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Perhaps but most people I think, are in the middle (I hope most people are anyway) filling their books with pictures of the good things that have happened too.

 

 

It doesn’t matter if the pictures are good or bad, it doesn’t make it less of “living in the past,” the analogy’s point is to make that distinction. 
There really is only Now is Joc’s point. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

My take away was use death as a way to live fully in the moment make sure I have the life I  want and know what I can and cannot tolerate and make revisions. 
In other words, accept it all as it is, go from there.

Given that we are all going to die today...tolerating the moment seems a bit impractical.  Embrace...the moment.  It is all we have.  I use to go back and forth with an Indian fellow on another forum.  He would say, If you are experiencing pain...find the joy in the pain!   After thinking on that for quite sometime I realized he had a point.  Now when I kick the chair with my little toe barefooted...omg, it hurts so bad...I always say, following a tirade of expletives, I love excruciating pain...yes!  Silly but...I think he had a point.  It is what it is.  Embrace what is.

Edited by joc
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3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It doesn’t matter if the pictures are good or bad, it doesn’t make it less of “living in the past,” the analogy’s point is to make that distinction. 
There really is only Now is Joc’s point. 

Just the other day my friend asked me about my pond and how his fish were doing (I acquired all of his Koi when the buyer of  his property realized they didn't want his pond anymore)

I was trying to explain to him that I don't know what I enjoy the most...sitting by the pond and recognizing the beauty for what it is...or...the thought that, Hey, I built that all by  myself.

I think you answered that question for me.  The pond is.  It wasn't.  But now it is.  If I sit and pat myself on the back for a job well done...I am no longer experiencing the pond.  I am looking at a picture book of the past...good pictures for sure...but none the less...living in the past.  It is much more enjoyable just watching the fish and hearing the waterfall.

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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, joc said:

Given that we are all going to die today...tolerating the moment seems a bit impractical.  Embrace...the moment.  It is all we have.  I use to go back and forth with an Indian fellow on another forum.  He would say, If you are experiencing pain...find the joy in the pain!   After thinking on that for quite sometime I realized he had a point.  Now when I kick the chair with my little toe barefooted...omg, it hurts so bad...I always say, following a tirade of expletives, I love excruciating pain...yes!  Silly but...I think he had a point.  It is what it is.  Embrace what is.

Yes, and at times life does suck, the one constant is acceptance, in other words, it is what it is. living life on the front lines, feeling truly alive even if the experience is crazy or challenging. 

For example: I was in a sail boat race with my dad. I had “no choice” but to be there in the moment. It was cold and miserable and the wind was less than one knots, and the race was all night and we were not even close to the goal and it was early.  I had no say or control or way to control the moment, the interesting thing is we really don’t have as much control as we think anyway, certainly look for a way, but many times the only way is acceptance and the moment works out anyway. My dad opened his coat and pulled me in to his body heat warmth for the rest of the boat trip. 
 

For me: getting this is half the battle on our type of path. 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, joc said:

Just the other day my friend asked me about my pond and how his fish were doing (I acquired all of his Koi when the buyer of  his property realized they didn't want his pond anymore)

I was trying to explain to him that I don't know what I enjoy the most...sitting by the pond and recognizing the beauty for what it is...or...the thought that, Hey, I built that all by  myself.

I think you answered that question for me.  The pond is.  It wasn't.  But now it is.  If I sit and pat myself on the back for a job well done...I am no longer experiencing the pond.  I am looking at a picture book of the past...good pictures for sure...but none the less...living in the past.  It is much more enjoyable just watching the fish and hearing the waterfall.

That makes sense just fully being in the moment, no need to interpret it or mentation out on it,  To me these moments are enlightenment in a practical sense.

Edited by Sherapy
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joc

I think that is similar to what Tolle was thinking when he realized that he didn't have all the problems he thought he did.  In the moment...there is only the moment.  Is this off topic?

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, XenoFish said:

In regards to spirituality, exactly how much is objective and how much subjective?

 

I don't think very much of spirituality can ever be objective. Except perhaps when one person's spirituality affects another person's spirituality objectively. Like when a father draws his daughter in to share his warm jacket when it's cold out.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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