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Jujo-jo

Meanwhile in Michigan...

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third_eye

Obama looking like a Buddha more than anything abrahamic there actually... 

~

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Liquid Gardens
48 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I am thinking the balance is between minimizing social disruption while not overwhelming the healthcare system. I can't say that Whitmer is wrong but I lean more to worrying that we will lose perspective on the social cost of the shutdown in our considerations.

Possibly, it's definitely a factor.  We are just not far enough along into this for me to worry about the current cost to our liberty yet; on one side we have vague guesses and generalities to go on to assess what the cost is of the shutdown, on the other side we are overwhelmed with evidence supporting what the cost is of letting the disease spread.  Until there is some evidence and until the work has been put in to estimate this shut down cost, I'm not going to find, "don't shutdown so much even if it most certainly will lead to additional deaths because maybe the alternative is worse", very compelling.

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papageorge1
40 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Possibly, it's definitely a factor.  We are just not far enough along into this for me to worry about the current cost to our liberty yet; on one side we have vague guesses and generalities to go on to assess what the cost is of the shutdown, on the other side we are overwhelmed with evidence supporting what the cost is of letting the disease spread.  Until there is some evidence and until the work has been put in to estimate this shut down cost, I'm not going to find, "don't shutdown so much even if it most certainly will lead to additional deaths because maybe the alternative is worse", very compelling.

Well every day governors DO have to make decisions and they do have to consider the trade-offs. That is already happening. My personal opinion falls in-between FOX News and CNN. 

 

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5 hours ago, Jujo-jo said:

People are mad they can't buy paint and grass seed among other things...

I got the impression they were mad because their rights are being summarily violated by state government overreach.  The governor of a state can impose martial law in times of chaos or disaster emergencies.  When a governor begins to micromanage what citizens can do then that governor has stepped over the line.  Whitmer is just returning to her instinctive roots.  It's in the DNA of Progressives to impose their will on others.  Trying that during a time when the media have done everything they could think of to panic people, really isn't a smart approach.  

 

5 hours ago, The Wistman said:

I suppose if some of the lovely people of Holland, MI start dropping they may reconsider this strategy.

Or maybe, just maybe, there are still Americans that are willing to risk things to be free?  The issue there is not that these protesters are deniers.  The issue is that they are having several of their inherent rights shoved aside without apology or explanation concerning duration.  I applaud them and I predict that more states will follow their steps soon.

The bottom line is that life is hard, dangerous and nobody makes it out alive.  We don't need people like this idiot, treating responsible adults like they're unruly children.

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acute
3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

As a Michigander myself,

Can't you think of a catchier demonym?  How about 'Michites'?

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spartan max2
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Possibly, it's definitely a factor.  We are just not far enough along into this for me to worry about the current cost to our liberty yet; on one side we have vague guesses and generalities to go on to assess what the cost is of the shutdown, on the other side we are overwhelmed with evidence supporting what the cost is of letting the disease spread.  Until there is some evidence and until the work has been put in to estimate this shut down cost, I'm not going to find, "don't shutdown so much even if it most certainly will lead to additional deaths because maybe the alternative is worse", very compelling.

How was the shutdown done in your state?

I ask because my main gripe has been how the lockdowns have happened. 

I feel for proper checks and balances it should have to pass through the legislature of your state.

I don't think goveners alone should have to power to move elections and shut down industries.

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4 hours ago, odas said:

endangeres peoples lifes.

You know, Odas, maybe it does create some extra risk that they could avoid if they hid in their homes.  It may surprise you that Americans, no matter how low IQ or inbred some consider them to be, are STUBBORN AS HELL.  This governor could have easily avoided this situation by using some restraint and allowing free people the freedom to buy items that they feel they NEED.  It isn't up to government at any level to tell people what legally available items they can buy and what they aren't allowed to buy.

I'm sure you'd have to admit that people's lives are endangered every morning when they get out of bed.  That's life.  So far, we've managed to avoid the situation that Italy endured where they simply didn't have the staffing or physical infrastructure to treat all the sick at the same time.  All we've done is to effectively kick the can down the road, though.  A small part of our population is eventually going to contract this virus and some are going to die from it.  Crippling our economy to the point of collapse will cause FAR MORE death than Covid 19 ever could.

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spartan max2
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Possibly, it's definitely a factor.  We are just not far enough along into this for me to worry about the current cost to our liberty yet; on one side we have vague guesses and generalities to go on to assess what the cost is of the shutdown, on the other side we are overwhelmed with evidence supporting what the cost is of letting the disease spread.  Until there is some evidence and until the work has been put in to estimate this shut down cost, I'm not going to find, "don't shutdown so much even if it most certainly will lead to additional deaths because maybe the alternative is worse", very compelling.

I've always felt the second/third/fourth resurgence waves of this virus is ultimately going to make these lockdowns pointless.

And I've always suspected other responses might be better (like Iceland not doing a lockdown)

But time will tell. We have plenty of nation's and different responses to watch. 

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3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

How weird.  Home Depot and Lowes are the busiest stores in town here.  Why can't they buy seeds and paint in Michigan?

"Cause the govnor SAYS SO!"  Idiot.  Maybe she'll go for broke and send her troopers around to arrest and jail a few thousand.  

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3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Wow, I hope they are giving due consideration to the economic, jobs, mental health, social, educational, etcetera tolls of doing all that when forming policy.

I think some politicians see that need and are trying to create balance.  Unfortunately, our politics have become so toxic that many want to use this situation to remove a president they hate.  If they keep playing fast and loose they could create one hell of a voter backlash.

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11 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I don't think goveners alone should have to power to move elections and shut down industries.

The supremacy clause is clear about the powers of governors to ignore Federal statutes (like elections) and it's clear that they do NOT have that authority.  As to shutting down their own state's industry, one would think they'd realize that to be counterintuitive but I guess some are willing to crash it all to beat the Orange man.  It's going to be interesting to see how the states use the Federal guidelines to reopen or to refuse to reopen.

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, and then said:

I think some politicians see that need and are trying to create balance.  Unfortunately, our politics have become so toxic that many want to use this situation to remove a president they hate.  If they keep playing fast and loose they could create one hell of a voter backlash.

I think you are not thinking clearly.  Our governor does not support Trump but she is more concerned with keeping people healthy and not overwhelming the hospitals.  Nothing she has done would indicate she is trying to "remove" anyone.  Your governor is making different decisions than mine but do you really know what she is thinking?  You often react in a way that indicates you are bias and fearful of politics that don't agree with your perceptions.  The only reason we have war between democrats and republicans is because people allow themselves to become polarized and fearful, not thinking clearly, allowing themselves to be emotionally manipulated.  Maybe you should actually contact the governors office and see if you can get a response explaining the decisions being made.

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quiXilver

Without widespread testing, there is no way to get accurate numbers for those who recover vs those who succumb.

 

Without massive testing, it's all just taking numbers from the smaller sample of those who end up in a Dr's office or hospital, with no way to tabulate the numbers who contract it and revive at home with minimal or no symptoms.

 

Must expand testing to see the effectiveness of control measures.

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aztek
5 hours ago, Piney said:

I enjoyed those decrepit looking gun pussies on the steps.....because nothing says "trained militia" more than obesity and people who look like meth heads. :yes:

so what, they do not need to be fit like athletes, only know how to use a gun, and  balls to use it when necessary,  which has nothing to do with their weight and  looks. 

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think you are not thinking clearly.  Our governor does not support Trump but she is more concerned with keeping people healthy and not overwhelming the hospitals.  Nothing she has done would indicate she is trying to "remove" anyone.  Your governor is making different decisions than mine but do you really know what she is thinking?  You often react in a way that indicates you are bias and fearful of politics that don't agree with your perceptions.  The only reason we have war between democrats and republicans is because people allow themselves to become polarized and fearful, not thinking clearly, allowing themselves to be emotionally manipulated.  Maybe you should actually contact the governors office and see if you can get a response explaining the decisions being made.

Fair enough.  Do you believe that this country can simply put everything on hold for several more months without having very serious repercussions?  Also, I was speaking of Whitmer in Michigan.  What she is doing is a pure power play.  She could have avoided this uproar by treating her citizens as adults but she chose to be heavy handed.

This virus is in the community and it's never going away.  Some are going to sicken and die from it but most won't.  That may sound heartless or cruel but I say it with the full understanding that I might be one that gets buried behind this scourge.  The economic impacts of the choices these governors are making will be far reaching and somewhat unpredictable.  I don't see how we intentionally shut down a 22Trillion dollar interdependent economy and then just expect it all to come back like flipping a switch.  I believe it is a VERY real concern that many times more deaths will occur during an economic collapse than this virus would kill without any intervention at all.

I react politically to the moves taken by those who have spent 3 years trying every fair or foul trick in the book to get rid of a president.  They haven't changed and they never will but they CAN be defeated and their choices regarding this virus may well do that.

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think you are not thinking clearly.  Our governor does not support Trump but she is more concerned with keeping people healthy and not overwhelming the hospitals.  Nothing she has done would indicate she is trying to "remove" anyone.  Your governor is making different decisions than mine but do you really know what she is thinking?  You often react in a way that indicates you are bias and fearful of politics that don't agree with your perceptions.  The only reason we have war between democrats and republicans is because people allow themselves to become polarized and fearful, not thinking clearly, allowing themselves to be emotionally manipulated.  Maybe you should actually contact the governors office and see if you can get a response explaining the decisions being made.

Fair enough.  Do you believe that this country can simply put everything on hold for several more months without having very serious repercussions?  Also, I was speaking of Whitmer in Michigan.  What she is doing is a pure power play.  She could have avoided this uproar by treating her citizens as adults but she chose to be heavy handed.

This virus is in the community and it's never going away.  Some are going to sicken and die from it but most won't.  That may sound heartless or cruel but I say it with the full understanding that I might be one that gets buried behind this scourge.  The economic impacts of the choices these governors are making will be far reaching and somewhat unpredictable.  I don't see how we intentionally shut down a 22Trillion dollar interdependent economy and then just expect it all to come back like flipping a switch.  I believe it is a VERY real concern that many times more deaths will occur during an economic collapse than this virus would kill without any intervention at all.

I react politically to the moves taken by those who have spent 3 years trying every fair or foul trick in the book to get rid of a president.  They haven't changed and they never will but they CAN be defeated and their choices regarding this virus may well do that.

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Desertrat56
6 minutes ago, and then said:

Fair enough.  Do you believe that this country can simply put everything on hold for several more months without having very serious repercussions?  Also, I was speaking of Whitmer in Michigan.  What she is doing is a pure power play.  She could have avoided this uproar by treating her citizens as adults but she chose to be heavy handed.

This virus is in the community and it's never going away.  Some are going to sicken and die from it but most won't.  That may sound heartless or cruel but I say it with the full understanding that I might be one that gets buried behind this scourge.  The economic impacts of the choices these governors are making will be far reaching and somewhat unpredictable.  I don't see how we intentionally shut down a 22Trillion dollar interdependent economy and then just expect it all to come back like flipping a switch.  I believe it is a VERY real concern that many times more deaths will occur during an economic collapse than this virus would kill without any intervention at all.

I react politically to the moves taken by those who have spent 3 years trying every fair or foul trick in the book to get rid of a president.  They haven't changed and they never will but they CAN be defeated and their choices regarding this virus may well do that.

I don't see a total shut down happening but maybe in Michigan it is more extreme.  My brother was one of those who was laid off, no benefits but he is getting unemployment so he will be ok and the industry  he works in will have jobs when this is over.  I know that is not true for everyone.  Our government is not shut down, it is still functioning, just online, with no one able to go in person to do their business.  I don't know about the courts.  We are allowed to shop.  Liquor stores and malls are closed.  Anything you want is online.  Some things take a month and a half to ship if you go through Amazon.

Small businesses will have the most trouble but there have been measures put in place to protect them as much as possible.  Our economy is not going to suffer as much as you fear. 

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Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Our economy is not going to suffer as much as you fear. 

Well, all I can say is I hope you are correct.  The effects of an economic collapse or even a lengthy depression would cause some serious problems and our population in the urban areas would not be stalwart or forgiving.  I read through the plan to reopen that Trump put forth and I think it's as solid as it can be.  The part I approve of most is his emphasis on letting the governors be responsible for their states.  Once a significant number of states have ramped up the restart, it should drag the recalcitrant along whether they want to or not.

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Desertrat56
5 minutes ago, and then said:

Well, all I can say is I hope you are correct.  The effects of an economic collapse or even a lengthy depression would cause some serious problems and our population in the urban areas would not be stalwart or forgiving.  I read through the plan to reopen that Trump put forth and I think it's as solid as it can be.  The part I approve of most is his emphasis on letting the governors be responsible for their states.  Once a significant number of states have ramped up the restart, it should drag the recalcitrant along whether they want to or not.

Even if he did not emphasize the governors being responsible for their states, they will do what they think is best in spite of his decisions.  Several governors have said so, they will not change the status quo until they know their state is going to be ok.  Just because the east coast is looking like things are getting better, though I think it is a sine wave, the downward turn could go back up, timing is not the same for the west coast, so he can't say right out that the whole country should...

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odas
38 minutes ago, and then said:

You know, Odas, maybe it does create some extra risk that they could avoid if they hid in their homes.  It may surprise you that Americans, no matter how low IQ or inbred some consider them to be, are STUBBORN AS HELL.  This governor could have easily avoided this situation by using some restraint and allowing free people the freedom to buy items that they feel they NEED.  It isn't up to government at any level to tell people what legally available items they can buy and what they aren't allowed to buy.

I'm sure you'd have to admit that people's lives are endangered every morning when they get out of bed.  That's life.  So far, we've managed to avoid the situation that Italy endured where they simply didn't have the staffing or physical infrastructure to treat all the sick at the same time.  All we've done is to effectively kick the can down the road, though.  A small part of our population is eventually going to contract this virus and some are going to die from it.  Crippling our economy to the point of collapse will cause FAR MORE death than Covid 19 ever could.

AT, Online purchsase is available, believe it or not. I ordered yesterday a pessure washer, 6 bags of turf, a new sprinkler attachment. Picked them up this morning. Will work on my yard tomorrow - it is snowing today a bit. So all they need is order and pick up so huge BS on their part in this regard. Also, watching the news all I saw was out of town pick up trucks, people with guns and Trump signs and flags. 

I cannot wait to go back to work. Today rather than tomorrow. I want to go out for a beer, steak, watch sports in my pub. Not gonna happen until it is reasonably safe.

Remember, and you are old enough to rememer that, good things take time, bad things happen in a second.

Patiance my friend. We will be ok.

 

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Liquid Gardens
2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

How was the shutdown done in your state?

I ask because my main gripe has been how the lockdowns have happened. 

I feel for proper checks and balances it should have to pass through the legislature of your state.

I don't think goveners alone should have to power to move elections and shut down industries.

I'm not sure, although there's an effort by the state Republicans right now to try and strip Whitmer of some of her powers, which she is just going to veto.  I hardly even consider this event as a protest against the lockdown, it looked much more like the typical loony Trump rally; if Whitmer didn't lock down the state and the death rate climbed even further than it has, then these people would be out screaming about that.  As far as the checks and balances and the power of governors to do this, I'm not sure why there aren't more checks and balances but I assume it has to do with it being an 'emergency'; what's kinda weird is that I haven't heard of any states who are set up this way, where the legislature needs to approve of these shut down actions.

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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

the downward turn could go back up, timing is not the same for the west coast, so he can't say right out that the whole country should...

Agreed, and he makes it clear in the plan that the guidelines are there to make it as safe as possible for those who want to reopen.  The nature of such a virus is that it will almost certainly flare again as restrictions are relaxed.  There are components of the plan that take that into account and meeting a surge in hospitalizations is part of what the governors have to institute prior to reopening.  

I'm blessed to live in a state that has fewer citizens than New York city, by half.  We don't have widespread industrial infrastructure but we do have a few military installations and the typical small businesses that all states have.  I expect we will be off lockdown very soon and hopefully, we can test and trace sufficiently to keep a second wave to a minimum.

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papageorge1
4 hours ago, and then said:

I think some politicians see that need and are trying to create balance.  Unfortunately, our politics have become so toxic that many want to use this situation to remove a president they hate.  If they keep playing fast and loose they could create one hell of a voter backlash.

That addresses one of my concerns nicely. If Trump is more on the reopening side then the Democrats (like our Michigan Governor) will be pressured for political reasons and by instinct now to resist and criticize anything Trump says. I worry this affects their clear unbiased appraisal of what is best for society as a whole.

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Jujo-jo
12 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

How weird.  Home Depot and Lowes are the busiest stores in town here.  Why can't they buy seeds and paint in Michigan?

She spoke to a covid19 survivor and he told her that the only possibly way he could have contracted it was by a gas pump while fuel his vehicle, therefore she doesn't want people having to use the pumps.

But some gas stations are providing mittens and or gloves. She also thinks that by going to your cottage up north and by buying grass seed and paint, that most people will have to travel to go get it, therefore needed fuel at some point.

She said something close to this... "and think about it, 300 different people using the same pumps will cost lives"

(People still need fuel to go run for groceries anyway but with these restrictions they will be a the pump less....)

I'm not board and my housing updates and maintenance are in pretty good shape; too exhausted to do any anyway at this point.

I'm still working from home when I'm up to it and even if I weren't, there still would be plenty to do around here without building materials, paint and grass seed.

But for the ones who are not working, I could see that now would be the perfect time for them to do all those fixer upper projects.

So I've just been sitten back watching the show...

Feeling a bit 50 /50 on this one...

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Jujo-jo
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Actually, I take a one hour walk everyday during the closure. It is absolutely GREAT for my mental health through this. 

Amen' Papa  ; ) same here, sometimes I go twice a day. (I did missed today though wasn't quite up to it.)

Sitting around alone causes pneumonia (you have to keep that stuff moving in there)!

Edited by Jujo-jo

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