Why did you become so sceptical to religion?

[jmccr8]

21 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Each individual must find one that fits them best,or choose none at all

Hi Walker

So are you inferring that there is no difference then between believing or not?

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

Just now, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

If you have a god you have a religion even if your the only pocket in the pews.

jmccr8

wrong 

(with respect ) 

There is a clear definition of religion as an organised and practiced system of belief 

One can have a real/physical  god without having any religion and without any beliefs  

Indeed personally i think that is how it should be for everyone 

Listen to your god.

Not the theology of any faith  Not the god presented by someone else but the one who lives in your heart /mind, and world .

A god will influence you like a wife or a dog, but it does not require belief or religion anymore than the wife or dog requires worshipping.

  

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

So are you inferring that there is no difference then between believing or not?

jmccr8

Not sure what you mean

If you need to construct a god construct, build one which works for you, or choose one " off the shelf"  which works for you 

If you encounter a real/live one, it is a bit different .You have to take it as it is (or leave it)  

 Again the difference between a fantasy woman and a real one.

You can build a perfect dreamboat in your imagination but real women require real, careful interactions  

science has proven that belief/faith in a positive construct will bring great benefits to a human being  

Its not relevant whether the deity imagined is real or not.

It is the belief which works the magic  Doesn't matter where you live in the world, or which (positive) belief you choose,  it works the same 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

wrong 

Hi Walker

Explain, wrong according to what known documentation. Okay everything we discuss is subjective perspectives given environmental conditions you right could get me killed.

Oh and thanks for the friendly disclaimer, we are friends so it's a known but thanks anyway.

24 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

There is a clear definition of religion as an organised and practiced system of belief 

One can have a real/physical  god without having any religion and without any beliefs  

Indeed personally i think that is how it should be for everyone 

Listen to your god.

To start out with my god is intelligence and the ability to realize potential so it would be a personal experience period. As long as someone preaches a "better way" bells ring kind of how that wild boar thinks I'm going to be his lunch when it looks like bacon to me.

29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Listen to your god.

My god is the intelligence of those that I choose to be near me because they share that part of themselves.

31 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Not the theology of any faith  Not the god presented by someone else but the one who lives in your heart /mind, and world .

A god will influence you like a wife or a dog, but it does not require belief or religion anymore than the wife or dog requires worshipping.

Okay if that works for you but why did you have to create a god physically to identify for me I realized that my intelligence lived in me and I could see it living in everyone so I didn't have to create any exterior physical entity in order to express my thoughts on "what am I".

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

A god will influence you

So does the ability to constructively exchange ideas over a cuppa coffee or a beer(up here we can smoke a fatty)with other intelligent people.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

43 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Goes for many believers and disbelievers.

Not me of course. I don't do belief or disbelief  

Hi Walker

The only downside of that position is that you have to believe that you neither believe or disbelieve, then again you believe you know so that you neither believe or disbelieve but everything you express is based on your beliefs so I hope you start to understand the scope of inquiry here

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

55 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Each individual must find one that fits them best,or choose none at all

This is your quote from my response

50 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Not sure what you mean

Hi Walker

I was asking what does this mean does it make a difference?

jmccr8

Edited June 15, 2020 by jmccr8
added context

[Mr Walker]

31 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Explain, wrong according to what known documentation. Okay everything we discuss is subjective perspectives given environmental conditions you right could get me killed.

Oh and thanks for the friendly disclaimer, we are friends so it's a known but thanks anyway.

To start out with my god is intelligence and the ability to realize potential so it would be a personal experience period. As long as someone preaches a "better way" bells ring kind of how that wild boar thinks I'm going to be his lunch when it looks like bacon to me.

My god is the intelligence of those that I choose to be near me because they share that part of themselves.

Okay if that works for you but why did you have to create a god physically to identify for me I realized that my intelligence lived in me and I could see it living in everyone so I didn't have to create any exterior physical entity in order to express my thoughts on "what am I".

So does the ability to constructively exchange ideas over a cuppa coffee or a beer(up here we can smoke a fatty)with other intelligent people.

jmccr8

I did explain it

A person can know a god without having any religious belief a t all, eg  you don't need belief in women to know one ;  IF gods are not all just religious constructs.

However a person  can also construct a god without any accompanying religious belief about that god.   Writers  do this all the time.

  ok,so your god is intelligence. It is a lot better god than some.

That exists without any need for you to construct religious beliefs around it IE you can have a god without a religion 

I haven't  "created"  any god. I've just tried to describe the being I have known for about 60 years and its effect on me.

  In my life it has two parts, like any living thing.

It's own physical independent existence and the values perceptions etc i confer on it, as i confer things on my dogs and wife 

So you could encounter it, as you could encounter my wife, but our feelings perceptions and understandings would differ significantly both for my wife and for "my" god

Likewise your existence has two parts. The exterior physical  part and the interior self  aware consciousness.  I can see your exterior part, but unless i am connected to the universal consciousness i cant see the part in side you. Only you know  the nature of  that.

The best you can do is express it, as clearly as you can, in words.

  Exactly   Sit down with a god over a beer  (or anything else)  and it will engage you in productive and useful conversation.

  Some you might agree with; some you might strongly argue against but , you both being being  intelligent entities, the conversation will always be educational, often entertaining, and sometimes confrontational/challenging.  

[Mr Walker]

40 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

The only downside of that position is that you have to believe that you neither believe or disbelieve, then again you believe you know so that you neither believe or disbelieve but everything you express is based on your beliefs so I hope you start to understand the scope of inquiry here

jmccr8

No. Knowledge is absolute and binary.   Thus I can know I know, rather than believe  I know.  Belief and disbelief are identical cognitive constructs .

We have to imagine them, (beliefs and disbeliefs)  build them, and maintain them.

I choose not to do this. I am happy to wait until i have knowldge.

Knowledge comes from external experience, not internal imagination and construction  

[Mr Walker]

45 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

This is your quote from my response

Hi Walker

I was asking what does this mean does it make a difference?

jmccr8

Does what make a difference to what?  

Ive pretty well explained all my thoughts on this, unless i am missing something.

Belief confers physical benefits on humans due to evolutionary forces, where  belief  proved to be pro survival 

it doesn't mater what you believe, as long as the belief is constructive.

The belief doesn't have to be true for the benefit to work 

So every human being should have a positive belief construct because it protects and empowers them (disbelief/humanism /self belief  might all be considered  positive beliefs) 

Because every human being is different, both genetically and through socialisation,  every human needs to either select or construct a belief which is most beneficial to them.

Usually this is suited to their family /culture /society , but not always. 

it doesn't seem to matter what the belief is, as long as it is not negative/destructive.   So buddhism is as good as  christianity; gaianism as good as jainism etc.  But satan worship might not produce the same positive effects. Nor might a form of christianity with a harsh, punishing god.. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I did explain it

Hi Walker

 Maybe it's my limited comprehension but "wrong" is a single word and me not being a mind reader generally expect something more direct in approach that satisfies the question.

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

A person can know a god without having any religious belief a t all, eg  you don't need belief in women to know one ;  IF gods are not all just religious constructs

Well seeing as how I was raised by a woman had a sister and went to school with several females no I didn't have to believe they were real not much of a point there aren't as many gods as females.

And thank who ever you like I am glad females are real.

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

ok,so your god is intelligence. It is a lot better god than some.

And by what gods judgment do you proclaim this as I am sure that some gods may not agree and which one is the "Boss" and how would one prove it? By signs

 

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No. Knowledge is absolute and binary.   Thus I can know I know, rather than believe  I know.  Belief and disbelief are identical cognitive constructs .

We have to imagine them, (beliefs and disbeliefs)  build them, and maintain them.

I choose not to do this. I am happy to wait until i have knowldge.

Knowledge comes from external experience, not internal imagination and construction  

Hi Walker

You Believe what you are telling me your whole post is a reflection of belief. Doesn't mean I believe what you say but that I believe that you believe that you have absolute knowledge and I am not as convinced as you are that you know what you think you know.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Does what make a difference to what? 

Hi Walker

We are talking about belief and disbelieving both can be considered known if one limits the values of each and if there is no difference why bother with a god construct in the first place and don't run to some religion or religion based reports because you don't have a religion.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

9 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

 Maybe it's my limited comprehension but "wrong" is a single word and me not being a mind reader generally expect something more direct in approach that satisfies the question.

Well seeing as how I was raised by a woman had a sister and went to school with several females no I didn't have to believe they were real not much of a point there aren't as many gods as females.

And thank who ever you like I am glad females are real.

And by what gods judgment do you proclaim this as I am sure that some gods may not agree and which one is the "Boss" and how would one prove it? By signs

 

jmccr8

Intelligence provides positive outcomes which can be objectively assessed Thus intelligence is a positive thing and if you make it your god, it i s  better than gods which bring negative outcomes 

you are wrong to think that having a god makes you religious or requires you to follow any religion.

Yep most peole combine the two, but they exist  separately  Gods dont need or require worship or religions/ theology 

The  just are.

You don't need a belief /faith or religion to know a powerful god    You can know one without having a clue about any belief system.  Like you can have a mate (friend)  without knowing their beliefs 

You can have a god as a mate without having any belief about them, just as you can have a human as a mate without worshipping them 

My god is not attached to any religion it does not need worship or following.  It is a good mate friend tutor and protector.

As far  as i know its beliefs are "humanist" ie logical ethical moral value lines, based on increasing potential and producing constructive outcomes 

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

We are talking about belief and disbelieving both can be considered known if one limits the values of each and if there is no difference why bother with a god construct in the first place and don't run to some religion or religion based reports because you don't have a religion.

jmccr8

Because a positive   god construct/faith/belief  can add 10 years to your life, heal you faster from physical trauma, reduce your pain, reduce your propensity to many diseases and improve your sexual psychological and physical health 

That is established scientific fact.

Other life choices can make similar if lesser improvements but this one is simple, easy, and free. 

 

[jmccr8]

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Intelligence provides positive outcomes which can be objectively assessed Thus intelligence is a positive thing and if you make it your god, it i s  better than gods which bring negative outcomes 

Hi Walker

Thing is as a god concept it isn't physical the only voice in my head is mine and it has the power to create many things and have done so. I don't compare it to other gods because they have not affected my surroundings in the same physical way that I do and apparently I'm a peon in most religious constructs and in mine I am equal.

There is no structure or doctrine only an ongoing life of realization and reflection.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Thing is as a god concept it isn't physical the only voice in my head is mine and it has the power to create many things and have done so. I don't compare it to other gods because they have not affected my surroundings in the same physical way that I do and apparently I'm a peon in most religious constructs and in mine I am equal.

There is no structure or doctrine only an ongoing life of realization and reflection.

jmccr8

god concepts aren't physical (except as electrical patterns in the brain, but the y are incredibly powerful)  Gods however are just as real as you or i  

Again, the difference between a "woman construct" and a woman  

good to see you have recognised some equality  in your relationship 

and I agree, no structure or doctrine is needed  although, being human, we tend to build them anyway, to make life easier/simpler .  

 

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

god concepts aren't physical (except as electrical patterns in the brain, but the y are incredibly powerful) 

So is this what your alien is because you said you and others have seen it(although you are the only one of the several that have spoken)and yet now you are saying gods are not physical leaving your alien little to stand on. As well most religious constructs of god do give god a physical form.

jmccr8

[freetoroam]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:09 AM, Cultivator of Fa said:

what was the reason you become so sceptical to religious/spiritual teaching?

No one was born religious, people are generally born into a religious household or decide to turn to religion later in life.

I had neither, it was not a case of me being sceptical, it was a case of me not being indoctrinated.

I chose not to become religious as I was not brought up to believe in it and it never took my fancy to believe in ideas made by man which are unproven and quite frankly, the whole god thing makes no sense, especially now when we know so much more about what is on the other side of the clouds and we know when a person dies, well, they die like all other living things on this Planet. 

[+Desertrat56]

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I've posted many thousands of words on this topic

I think that is the problem you have.  If you were more concise with and frugal with your words people would be more likely to read them and also would understand your position  more easily.

[XenoFish]

11 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think that is the problem you have.  If you were more concise with and frugal with your words people would be more likely to read them and also would understand your position  more easily.

I've already tried this talk with him. It won't work. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 6/15/2020 at 8:29 AM, freetoroam said:

No one was born religious, people are generally born into a religious household or decide to turn to religion later in life.

I had neither, it was not a case of me being sceptical, it was a case of me not being indoctrinated.

I chose not to become religious as I was not brought up to believe in it and it never took my fancy to believe in ideas made by man which are unproven and quite frankly, the whole god thing makes no sense, especially now when we know so much more about what is on the other side of the clouds and we know when a person dies, well, they die like all other living things on this Planet. 

I think, your first sentence it’s a very significant thing to realize. I think, realistically you can’t debate against it. No one was born religious I believe that to be true.

 

I think, your first sentence it’s a very significant thing to realize. I think, realistically you can’t debate against it. No one was born religious I believe that to be true.

and despite that I grew up in a secular household myself and saw no reasoning to believe in miracles or the varying degrees of orthodox beliefs that I hear others say later on in life, I’m one of those who did turn to some form of religion or belief later in life. Though, it’s unorthodox and very unique and more than likely, I’m the only one that is party to it.

so, I’m skeptical to the Orthodox beliefs. So, I can’t be convinced in them because of my experience of my childhood without them.

so, I guess you can say, I man-made my own. I can understand that. I see a lot of non-Mundane elements in my belief, but I will believe it’s only subjective.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Stubbly_Dooright

[Mr Walker]

On 6/15/2020 at 5:14 PM, jmccr8 said:

So is this what your alien is because you said you and others have seen it(although you are the only one of the several that have spoken)and yet now you are saying gods are not physical leaving your alien little to stand on. As well most religious constructs of god do give god a physical form.

jmccr8

god concepts aren't physical. Gods can be  

There is a complex concept of my wife in my mind, and then there is the real version.

  Both exist.

One is solid flesh, the other a mental construct.

  When my wife dies, if i am still alive, the mental construct of her will live on. She will live on in my memories.

   If i die, my construct  of my wife will also  die, but my physical wife will live on.

  Gods like wise come in these categories.

Mental constructs and physical forms.

  In the case of real beings there is a combination of both the reality of the being, and your construct of it in your mind.

  When i die, my mental  construct of my god will die with me, but it's physical self  will continue to exist, and live on. 

Both my parents were real.

Both are physically dead,yet in my mind exist lasting powerful structures/constructs of my parents over 60 years of life.   These  often manifest in  dreams of my parents.

In that way they live on, and i can still interact with them, via their  cognitive simulacrum constructs in my mind   

Edited June 19, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

god concepts aren't physical. Gods can be  

Hi Walker

Yes concepts exist as concepts and some can be made real that is what I do with my work take a concept and fabricate it using real materials. Other concepts do not or cannot exist in the real world for a variety of reason like cost or feasibility. Gods on the other hand as described by most religions have not been shown to exist in the physical world we live in in a physical form that they have been described as having. Without something more than a few words of what some random person said there is no objective evidence.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

There is a complex concept of my wife in my mind, and then there is the real version.

  Both exist.

One is solid flesh, the other a mental construct.

Yes and the mental construct of your wife is subjective whereas your wife is objective and may not entail all of the same qualities that your construct has so in a sense does not truly reflect who your wife is in the real world.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

When my wife dies, if i am still alive, the mental construct of her will live on. She will live on in my memories.

   If i die, my construct  of my wife will also  die, but my physical wife will live on.

  Gods like wise come in these categories.

Seeing as you have not been able to establish that your god has a physical form then all I can infer is that when you die your god dies with you because it has not been shown to be anything more than your mental construct.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Both my parents were real.

Both are physically dead,yet in my mind exist lasting powerful structures/constructs of my parents over 60 years of life.   These  often manifest in  dreams of my parents.

In that way they live on, and i can still interact with them, via their  cognitive simulacrum constructs in my mind 

This has no point but you are interacting with constructs of your parents not your parents so you can make then do/say whatever you want and hear see what you want big diff between reality and fantasy.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Yes concepts exist as concepts and some can be made real that is what I do with my work take a concept and fabricate it using real materials. Other concepts do not or cannot exist in the real world for a variety of reason like cost or feasibility. Gods on the other hand as described by most religions have not been shown to exist in the physical world we live in in a physical form that they have been described as having. Without something more than a few words of what some random person said there is no objective evidence.

Yes and the mental construct of your wife is subjective whereas your wife is objective and may not entail all of the same qualities that your construct has so in a sense does not truly reflect who your wife is in the real world.

Seeing as you have not been able to establish that your god has a physical form then all I can infer is that when you die your god dies with you because it has not been shown to be anything more than your mental construct.

This has no point but you are interacting with constructs of your parents not your parents so you can make then do/say whatever you want and hear see what you want big diff between reality and fantasy.

jmccr8

First point 

Unless a human meets anything the y only have a concept of it  

The god of christianity islam and judaism is about the only one which rarely interacts with humans (although biblically it certainly used to) However other gods of human myth/history all interacted with ordinary human beings,  ALL actual  gods  either have some physical form or the y do not exist 

second point is true BUT my interactions with my wife are more based on my subjective construct of her than her actual physical reality.

ie   I respond to her as i BELIEVE she wants to be responded to.

  I think we are saying the same thing, with slightly different emphasis.

For me   it is the same with gods We dont see them as the y are or respond  to them as they are but to our perceptions of them 

I have established evidentially for myself th t my god has the same   physical form (when it chooses to) as i do.

Its not a construct of my mind alone.

Thus when i die it will live on, just as my wife would live on if i died  My construct of both will die with me, but he y will not 

Naturally you cant know this to be true and thus can believe as you feel best.

Last point is interesting. it is partly true but also wrong 

Cognitive constructs or avatars have a life of their own 

I guess its a complex cognitive/psychological subject   eg when the y were alive i also responded to my constructs of my parents as much as to their realities

Maybe i COULD make such constructs behave as i want but i don't. I let them evolve and exist as   independent  entities.

So my father might give me advice now, which he never gave during his life, and it would be advice based on HIS beliefs, attitudes, values, and experiences, not my own.  My mother might criticise a decison i make  and point out problems which will  flow from  it, and that advice comes from  "her" more than me   My parents still exist as ongoing entities within my mind.

They possess their own characteristics and qualities as they did in life. 

In this respect, i believe the y are similar to Jung's Philemon

 

 

[Mr Walker]

On 6/16/2020 at 12:54 AM, Desertrat56 said:

I think that is the problem you have.  If you were more concise with and frugal with your words people would be more likely to read them and also would understand your position  more easily.

ah but i love words.  

I think in complex forms, and to be honest,  anything complex requires some detail and complexity to describe and discuss 

If i wrote simply i could only discuss the simpler elements of complex things. 

This is a serious problem in the hierarchy of education/language abilty 

Along a scale of abilty we can only really converse deeply with those reasonably close to our own abilities.  eg you can talk to a young child in simple words about simple things, but not about complicated ones requiring specialised knowledge, and expernce with language and ideas 

I've actually adjusted my writing presentation to help those who cant read longer paragraphs and maintain coherent thought 

As mark twain said (to paraphrase) There are those who cannot read and those who choose not to read.