Avicenna thought experiment

[Mello_]

Ibn Sina put it like this.

Lets say you are floating. In vacuum. You dont touch any part of your body. No sense of touching. Floating.

Its dark. You dont see nothing. Complete darkness.

Its without noise. Silence. 

Without smell. You cant sniff anything. Or taste.

All senses shut down. 

 

Would you be aware of yourself? 

 

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

Would you be aware of yourself? 

Would this be before you have any external input from the world or after you've lived a few years?

[Mello_]

I think that Avicenna think about after you lived. What he wanted is to give a proof that self awareness isnt just chemical reaction of our brain to external things. That we have souls. Blind people are self awared of themselves. His thought experiment is famous among philosophers.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Mello_ said:

I think that Avicenna think about after you lived. What he wanted is to give a proof that self awareness isnt just chemical reaction of our brain to external things. That we have souls. Blind people are self awared of themselves. His thought experiment is famous among philosophers.

If you're already self-aware then all the sudden you have zero senses at all. You'd probably go insane. 

[Tatetopa]

15 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

Would you be aware of yourself? 

An old man would tell you that when you have to pee you become aware of yourself.  You don't need a soul for that, just a bladder and appropriate nerve endings.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

An old man would tell you that when you have to pee you become aware of yourself.  You don't need a soul for that, just a bladder and appropriate nerve endings.

I think s/he means zero biofeedback or sensory experience. Basically you are now a brain in a bottle. With no external stimuli. 

[Mello_]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

An old man would tell you that when you have to pee you become aware of yourself.  You don't need a soul for that, just a bladder and appropriate nerve endings.

Dude. Did you read it. No senses. You can have incotinency.

[papageorge1]

17 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

 

Would you be aware of yourself? 

 

I think you would be aware but even as a soul believer I don't see that as evidence for a soul. Your mind creates thoughts. You still have internal body inputs.

[Mello_]

Just now, XenoFish said:

I think s/he means zero biofeedback or sensory experience. Basically you are now a brain in a bottle. With no external stimuli. 

He. Yes. No stimuli at all. Imagine. Step by step. Dark. Silence. Floating. Sterile condition. No smell or taste. Your fingers are separated.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Mello_ said:

He. Yes. No stimuli at all. Imagine. Step by step. Dark. Silence. Floating. Sterile condition. No smell or taste. Your fingers are separated.

My answer is the end result is insanity. As soon as you realize you're trapping in your head, that is it.

[Mello_]

Just now, XenoFish said:

My answer is the end result is insanity. As soon as you realize you're trapping in your head, that is it.

Lol dude. No man. Its experiment. Which he wanted to proof that after we die. After we lost all senses we will still be aware of yourself. So you go somewhere you know. Anyway. Experiment shows that all people think that they will be aware of self.

[freetoroam]

3 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

I think that Avicenna think about after you lived. 

After you lived? Please explain. Do you mean after you have experience of living up to this point?

6 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

 That we have souls.

Sorry but this has nothing to do with the OP.

16 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

Lets say you are floating. In vacuum. You dont touch any part of your body. No sense of touching. Floating.

Its dark. You dont see nothing. Complete darkness.

Its without noise. Silence. 

Without smell. You cant sniff anything. Or taste.

All senses shut down

Your senses initially would not shut down. If there are none of the above externally, it has nothing to do with your soul.

You are still alive, your senses are still there, but there is nothing for them to "sense" .

If you are aware there is nothing around you, your brain is still active.

Depending on how long you are in the vacuum for,  your body will either go crazy or readjust to normal when you come out of the vacuum.

Can you explain if there is a time limit in the vacuum? 

[Mello_]

5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I think you would be aware but even as a soul believer I don't see that as evidence for a soul. Your mind creates thoughts. You still have internal body inputs.

Fair enough. You think that our brain must die to loose self awareness?

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Mello_ said:

Lol dude. No man. Its experiment. Which he wanted to proof that after we die. After we lost all senses we will still be aware of yourself. So you go somewhere you know. Anyway. Experiment shows that all people think that they will be aware of self.

In regards to that direction, no. We are dead. End of story. 

[freetoroam]

2 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

 Its experiment. Which he wanted to proof that after we die. After we lost all senses we will still be aware of yourself. So you go somewhere you know. Anyway. Experiment shows that all people think that they will be aware of self.

This makes no sense at all.

 

[Mello_]

Just now, freetoroam said:

This makes no sense at all.

 

Errr why?

[Mello_]

13 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

After you lived? Please explain. Do you mean after you have experience of living up to this point?

Sorry but this has nothing to do with the OP.

Your senses initially would not shut down. If there are none of the above externally, it has nothing to do with your soul.

You are still alive, your senses are still there, but there is nothing for them to "sense" .

If you are aware there is nothing around you, your brain is still active.

Depending on how long you are in the vacuum for,  your body will either go crazy or readjust to normal when you come out of the vacuum.

Can you explain if there is a time limit in the vacuum? 

You know. You live. You write on UM. Then all of sudden your senses shuting down. You are droped in vacuum. There is no time limits in vacuum. Just experiment. Would you be aware of yourself without any stimuli.

 

About soul thing and derailing my own thread. Hunny Avicenna isnt today philosopher. His experiment was conducted to proove existence of soul. In that context its not offtopic.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Mello_

[freetoroam]

1 minute ago, Mello_ said:

Errr why?

Once you die you have no senses.

You are dead, end off.

2 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

 Its experiment. Which he wanted to proof that after we die.

It is not an experiment, how is he going to get the results off a dead person?

Your brain still functions if there is no smell to smell, no sounds to hear, etc etc etc. 

Can you tell me during this "experiment" how long the living person is in the vacuum for?

[Mello_]

1 minute ago, freetoroam said:

Once you die you have no senses.

You are dead, end off.

It is not an experiment, how is he going to get the results off a dead person?

Your brain still functions if there is no smell to smell, no sounds to hear, etc etc etc. 

Can you tell me during this "experiment" how long the living person is in the vacuum for?

I answered you. Its not determinated. We can extend his idea minus plus time.

Yes you are right. But without senses your brain doesnt gets stimuli. Its like you are dead. Isnt?

[XenoFish]

I get the feeling that this is not going to be very productive...

[freetoroam]

2 minutes ago, Mello_ said:

There is no time limits in vacuum. Just experiment. Would you be aware of yourself without any stimuli.

 

Yes, for the initial part, if you are in there,  questions, curiosity, a certain adjustment will occur. 

A few more hours in there, panic, confusion.

Leading into days,  complete panic  insanity, starvation, dehydration.

You will die if noone gets you out and you WILL be aware of all this until you go completely insane. 

[Mello_]

Once you die you have no senses. You said it. Imagine.

[XenoFish]

I've answered. Dead is dead, there is no-thing, nothing at all. You are gone. Once the brain shuts down that is it. 

[Mello_]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I get the feeling that this is not going to be very productive...

It isnt meant to be productive. Its fun to discuss it. Different opinion make us rich as collective. Let 1000 flowers to grow. I like to see different opinions. Especially on this. So..

[XenoFish]

Fun? So nothing actually productive? Well I'm out.