Oil goes into the negative range

[Gromdor]

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/04/20/oil-price-crash-no-storage-space/

Oil companies literally have to pay people to take their oil because there is no demand for it and OPEC and the rest of the world are still producing millions of barrels a day.

[spartan max2]

Dam I should go fill my car up lol

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Dam I should go fill my car up lol

Eh, it's not a good thing.  A bunch of US oil companies are going to go bankrupt over it.

[Gromdor]

Break even point is $48-$54 a barrel for shale oil.  https://www.ccn.com/collapsing-crude-prices-will-bankrupt-u-s-shale-oil-stocks/

Break even for fracking is $30-50 a barrel.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/072215/can-fracking-survive-60-barrel.asp

 

 

 

[spartan max2]

16 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Eh, it's not a good thing.  A bunch of US oil companies are going to go bankrupt over it.

I know. I'm just trying to ignore the economic depression that is coming.

[+Desertrat56]

24 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Eh, it's not a good thing.  A bunch of US oil companies are going to go bankrupt over it.

Good!  Those dinosaurs need to get a wake up call.  They could have done better, they could have transitioned into alternatives a long time ago but instead they buy congress and senators and insist on fracking when we don't even need the oil.  Greedy b***str*ds need to go bankrupt, maybe it will get rid of some of our useless politicians if they no longer have an owner to keep them rolling in money.

[+Razman]

yep , I agree , maybe its time to develop alternates.

[+and-then]

20 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I know. I'm just trying to ignore the economic depression that is coming.

We'll be fortunate if a depression is as far as this goes.  I see global governments looking at this as a way to clear the balance sheets and force an economic reset.  Sounds great except for the period of collapse and lawlessness it will cause.

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, razman said:

yep , I agree , maybe its time to develop alternates.

The time to develop alternatives was 35 years ago.  We had the technology but the oil companies bought up the patents!!  So we are 35 years behind.

[DarkHunter]

10 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

The time to develop alternatives was 35 years ago.  We had the technology but the oil companies bought up the patents!!  So we are 35 years behind.

What alternatives to produce jet fuel, plastics, and tar/asphalts have the oil companies been hiding for 35 years

[Harte]

28 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Good!  Those dinosaurs need to get a wake up call.  They could have done better, they could have transitioned into alternatives a long time ago but instead they buy congress and senators and insist on fracking when we don't even need the oil.  Greedy b***str*ds need to go bankrupt, maybe it will get rid of some of our useless politicians if they no longer have an owner to keep them rolling in money.

So, you're angry because not enough dinosaurs converted into oil after death in the Jurassic?

Harte

 

[Harte]

23 minutes ago, razman said:

yep , I agree , maybe its time to develop alternates.

And why do you think that alternative energy companies, which have a higher overhead, would not be affected by the steep reduction in energy use going on right now?

Harte

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

Break even point is $48-$54 a barrel for shale oil.  https://www.ccn.com/collapsing-crude-prices-will-bankrupt-u-s-shale-oil-stocks/

Break even for fracking is $30-50 a barrel.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/072215/can-fracking-survive-60-barrel.asp

If ever there was a case for Dumping Duties to protect local industry ...

[+Razman]

I'm sure they would at some point , yet I just don't care much for oil companies. , though if things like more solar power were in , or more electric for cars , they might not be affected, at least not so much.

Edited April 20, 2020 by razman

[+Desertrat56]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

What alternatives to produce jet fuel, plastics, and tar/asphalts have the oil companies been hiding for 35 years

For one thing, the alternative to plastic is to use reusable products, eliminate plastic.  Silicon is doing a fine job for that.  and there are better materials  for roads than asphalt.  Jet fuel, now that is something that could be investigated and I am sure someone would come up with something.  The oil companies subsidize the car companies to encourage the to avoid alternative engines with better milage on fuel and with better solar powered cars.  Why do you think Elon Musk put his patents on open source, so that the oil companies and big car companies could not buy them and keep them from being used.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Desertrat56

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

the alternative to plastic is to use reusable products, eliminate plastic.

While I agree that we put too much plastic in our landfills, the current health crisis demonstrates one of the failings of reusable containers in commerce.  In some areas, disposable one time use items are essential.

[+Desertrat56]

14 hours ago, Harte said:

So, you're angry because not enough dinosaurs converted into oil after death in the Jurassic?

Harte

 

No, I am angry that we are still using those dinaosaurs for fuel when we know it is bad for us (extinction type bad).

[DarkHunter]

23 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

For one thing, the alternative to plastic is to use reusable products, eliminate plastic.  Silicon is doing a fine job for that.  and there are better materials  for roads than asphalt.  Jet fuel, now that is something that could be investigated and I am sure someone would come up with something.  The oil companies subsidize the car companies to encourage the to avoid alternative engines with better milage on fuel and with better solar powered cars.  Why do you think Elon Musk put his patents on open source, so that the oil companies and big car companies could not buy them and keep them from being used.

Silicone is not going to be a replacement for plastic for numerous reasons.  One of the bigger problems is that when sufficient heat is applied silicones they break down on a molecular level while plastics melt, this makes plastics items easier to produce along with allowing plastics to be recycled.  Also silicones are very limited in flexability, elasticity, and rigidity which plastics arent really limited by those mechanical properties.

The better material really depends on the local conditions cause there are places where asphalt is the best option.

Jet fuel is unlikely to have any alternative developed due to its chemical and physical properties and ease of production.  Just not that many molecules that release the right amount of energy, release the energy easily, stays liquid through the right temperature range, and is the right density to not make it too heavy to carry for jets among other chemical and physical properties.

The whole oil companies subsidize car companies to keep oil being needed is just conspiracy nonsense.  Alternative engines with better fuel mileage arent being used cause they simply dont exist.  There are thermodynamic laws that just limit the effectiveness of any combustion engine and unless a radical new discovery is made in material science there just isnt any way to increase the efficiency and even then the increase in efficiency would be rather small.

Solar powered cars are just not feasible in any way what so ever.  To put it into perspective to go approximately 40 mph in a car it takes about 5 to 6 horsepower and to collect enough energy from the sun with modern solar panels to go that fast you would need about 19 to 22 square meters of solar panels.  To go 70 mph you would need about 75 square meters of solar panels.  Even then it would only work while the sun is up.

One could argue you would use a battery to store the energy but if you are already doing that no point in using solar panels.  Even then there are once again electro thermodynamic problems that creep up that prevent them from truly equaling cars at a competitive price point.

As for Elon Musk that is mostly for marketing, which is clearly working cause you view him as a noble figure and not an opportunistic capitalist, along with an attempt to be the format of post combustion engine cars which if he succeeds would make him more money than patenting and selling what he already has.  

[+Desertrat56]

16 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Silicone is not going to be a replacement for plastic for numerous reasons. 

I am already using silicon products instead of plastic wrap.  You are thinking single use and I am thinking we need to quit creating single use products, unless they are made of paper of light cardboard.  I have silicon lids that stretch over the bowls like plastic wrap, but seal better and are washable and re-usable.  Besides, I Never heat plastic I use glass or ceramic to cook in the microwave. 

 

19 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The better material really depends on the local conditions cause there are places where asphalt is the best option.

What conditions are those that asphalt is better?  Where you want a teporary pavement that can be taken up easily or worn away by the weather?

21 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The whole oil companies subsidize car companies to keep oil being needed is just conspiracy nonsense.  Alternative engines with better fuel mileage arent being used cause they simply dont exist.  There are thermodynamic laws that just limit the effectiveness of any combustion engine and unless a radical new discovery is made in material science there just isnt any way to increase the efficiency and even then the increase in efficiency would be rather small.

I think you don't know what you are talking about.  Tesla has a viable electric car that fits all the criteria of driving on the highway and in the city, no combustion engine needed, the biggest problem is the battery and the company is working on making that better.   There are a lot of PHD students working on better electric and other technology for automobiles and transportation.  They have contests every year and they are coming up with some very workable ideas.

Who mentioned solar panels for cars? Your last few paragraphs make me think you are programmed for some reason to not be able to think outside the box or consider a different paradigm. 

 

 

[Harte]

10 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, I am angry that we are still using those dinaosaurs for fuel when we know it is bad for us (extinction type bad).

"Put a T-Rex in your tank!!"

Harte

[Harte]

24 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I am already using silicon products instead of plastic wrap.  You are thinking single use and I am thinking we need to quit creating single use products, unless they are made of paper of light cardboard.  I have silicon lids that stretch over the bowls like plastic wrap, but seal better and are washable and re-usable.  Besides, I Never heat plastic I use glass or ceramic to cook in the microwave. 

 

What conditions are those that asphalt is better?  Where you want a teporary pavement that can be taken up easily or worn away by the weather?

I think you don't know what you are talking about.  Tesla has a viable electric car that fits all the criteria of driving on the highway and in the city, no combustion engine needed, the biggest problem is the battery and the company is working on making that better.   There are a lot of PHD students working on better electric and other technology for automobiles and transportation.  They have contests every year and they are coming up with some very workable ideas.

Who mentioned solar panels for cars? Your last few paragraphs make me think you are programmed for some reason to not be able to think outside the box or consider a different paradigm.

You have to get the charge for the battery somewhere.

Harte

[DarkHunter]

29 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I am already using silicon products instead of plastic wrap.  You are thinking single use and I am thinking we need to quit creating single use products, unless they are made of paper of light cardboard.  I have silicon lids that stretch over the bowls like plastic wrap, but seal better and are washable and re-usable.  Besides, I Never heat plastic I use glass or ceramic to cook in the microwave. 

First you just cant stop using single use items, there are just some things that need to be single use for any number of reasons.  Second you dont seem to understand just how wide ranging plastic use actually is.  Third, while you might not heat plastics it doesnt change the fact being able to heat something to shape and mold it makes production far cheaper and easier.

Your use of plastics, even general household use of plastics globally, make up a relqtively small amount of plastics demand and uses.

30 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

What conditions are those that asphalt is better?  Where you want a teporary pavement that can be taken up easily or worn away by the weather?

Has more to do with areas where more rigid roadways like concrete can cause problems.  Depending on climate and geological conditions there are areas where the ground moves up and down seasonally.  In those locations it doesnt take long for concrete to start cracking and depending on local climate the road can begin degrading very rapidly while depending on how the asphalt is laid it can have more flexibility to move with the ground instead of crack.  Also concrete roads are expensive to put it and maintain while asphalt is cheap and easy so it's also used as a protective seal on otherwise concrete roads to lower maintenance cost.

Lastly asphalt produce less noise then other road types so areas where traffic noise could be a problem normally get asphalt roads.

30 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think you don't know what you are talking about.  Tesla has a viable electric car that fits all the criteria of driving on the highway and in the city, no combustion engine needed, the biggest problem is the battery and the company is working on making that better.   There are a lot of PHD students working on better electric and other technology for automobiles and transportation.  They have contests every year and they are coming up with some very workable ideas.

Tesla does have a fully electric car and the cheapest one cost around $50,000 with most being around $90,000.  They also take around 10 to 12 hours to fully charge and to top it off the large and expensive batteries will need to be replaced every few years.  Building a better battery isnt some cheap and easy task and it will probably take at minimum a decade before any batteries are developed to make fully electric car affordable enough to be viable.  Even then the energy in the battery does have to be generated from some source.  

10 minutes ago, Harte said:

Who mentioned solar panels for cars? Your last few paragraphs make me think you are programmed for some reason to not be able to think outside the box or consider a different paradigm.

You said specifically solar powered cars which were an actual type of car that was tried as an alternative to conventional cars and failed miserably. 

I think rationally and logically.  The biggest problem with a lot of the people who want to go green is they have no idea what they are talking about.  They know nothing of the science or engineering behind what they see or hear about and start thinking that if its adopted it will save the world.  Problem is such amazing inventions/discoveries almost never happens, normally cause the laws of physics and/or economic constraints get in the way, than they start coming up with all of these conspiracy theories of some big business purposefully hiding away all this wonder tech.

[Harte]

 

Harte

Edited April 22, 2020 by Harte

[+Desertrat56]

12 hours ago, Harte said:

You have to get the charge for the battery somewhere.

Harte

Check out how the state of Texas is transitioning to alternative energy.  You can set up solar panels to charge batteries, you can buy electricity from solar farms and wind farms.  All that came about because they broke up the monopolies that existed in the power companies.  Now you get to choose who you buy the electricity from and every electric producer sends the electricity to a central power station which manages providing the electricity to the customers, but the billing is done by the providers and middle man companies.  It creates a lot of competition and the alternative industry has been stepping up ever since.  They are the model that should be followed by the states that have monopoly electric companies like New Mexico and Arizona.  Places where solar should have been implemented on a very large scale 35 years ago.  You can pretend that fossil fuel, coal and oil, are our only "best" energy provider, if you want, but they aren't.

[+Desertrat56]

11 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

First you just cant stop using single use items, there are just some things that need to be single use for any number of reasons.  Second you dont seem to understand just how wide ranging plastic use actually is.  Third, while you might not heat plastics it doesnt change the fact being able to heat something to shape and mold it makes production far cheaper and easier.

First, we have to stop using single use items if we think they can only be made of plastic.  Things like plastic wrap, and bags that are meant to keep something from getting dirty until you open the bag and use the item are choking us and the rest of the animals.  I do understand how wide spread plastic use actually is.  You don't understand how dangerous it is to continue to use it as we do now. We can use other materials, including aluminum foil for heating food or what ever you are talking about,  which is cheaper to recycle than to mine. Why do you think you can sell used aluminum, there is a huge market for it.  Saves the companies huge money to use recycled aluminum than to buy it from miners.

You are confused about how silicon can be used (for one thing - glass - look it up, glass)  and how you can take clay and shape it any way you want, fire it and have your container.  AND I have no problem with reusable plastic like tupperware or lids that go on pyrex bowls.  But we do Not NEED plastic, it is a manufactured need like television and video games.