If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

[Windowpane]

5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

(Stargate clip)

 

Shame it didn't show the part with Daniel Jackson's discovery of how to make the Stargate work ... although it's discussed in Frederic Krueger's essay on The Stargate Simulacrum.

And also here, Pt I (Introduction).

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

50 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

 

Shame it didn't show the part with Daniel Jackson's discovery of how to make the Stargate work ... although it's discussed in Frederic Krueger's essay on The Stargate Simulacrum.

And also here, Pt I (Introduction).

 

I was seriously considering finding the scene where the pyramids ARE using as landing strips for aliens.

[Festina]

8 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

 

Facetious you are.  Okay then. 

Not a fan of the film industry or Netflix or Tell -A- Vision or government liars and thieves.  Ya got any thing better?  Like a papyrus or another “lost” work from long ago?  

 

 

[Festina]

7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Oh, come on who would believe that. There were certainly made as 'feet' scratchers for humongous aliens

So why were they made?  Yard Art  for giants? 

And what is the large mushroom shaped object on the left?  No sign of it today.  

 

THE NILE IN THE VICINITY OF GEBEL SILSILA 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Festina

[Harte]

4 hours ago, Festina said:

Facetious you are.  Okay then. 

Not a fan of the film industry or Netflix or Tell -A- Vision or government liars and thieves.  Ya got any thing better?  Like a papyrus or another “lost” work from long ago?

There are papyri that indicate the GP was being built during Khufu's reign, though you aren't probably interested in that.

Harte

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

There are papyri that indicate the GP was being built during Khufu's reign, though you aren't probably interested in that.

Harte

I think the official fringe view is that the papyri doesn't state specifically that they were building Khufu Tomb instead the stone could have been for use anywhere or perhaps repairing it.

Its like this:

Lets say we look into the smaller void and find an Inscription:

""I Khufu had this pyramid erected as my tomb"""

The fringe would state that either it was a fake placed by Zahi or was placed there by Khufu who found the ancient pyramid already there and wanted to claim it for himself.

Now lets say we get into the larger higher void: We find in it Khufu's burial with 10 times the stuff from Tut's burial. Does that prove it ? No of course not Khufu just placed his tomb in an already existing building......built 10,500 years BCE.

Denalism is bottomless.

LOL

 

 

 

[Festina]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

There are papyri that indicate the GP was being built during Khufu's reign, though you aren't probably interested in that.

Harte

I know this.

And your right, I’m no longer interested in when it was built.  I want know why it and the others were built and the specific purpose for their construction.  

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, Festina said:

So why were they made?  Yard Art  for giants? 

And what is the large mushroom shaped object on the left?  No sign of it today.  

 

THE NILE IN THE VICINITY OF GEBEL SILSILA 

You'd have to ask David Roberts what it is he depicted in that litho. Here's a better image of that scene

I'd say with absolute uncertainty that it is a H.G. Wells style Martian three legged machine. I've been to that location (its an area of quarries).

[Festina]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

You'd have to ask David Roberts what it is he depicted in that litho. Here's a better image of that scene

I'd say with absolute uncertainty that it is a H.G. Wells style Martian three legged machine. I've been to that location (its an area of quarries).

Thank you. 

It is curious. It was quite large whatever it was.  

“All Hail, Amanita Muscaria”. 

Just kidding but I couldn’t resist. 

I’ve Been looking at the book again.  It is quite interesting. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Festina

[Harte]

2 hours ago, Festina said:

I know this.

And your right, I’m no longer interested in when it was built.  I want know why it and the others were built and the specific purpose for their construction.  

They were built to be tombs for the kings.

Harte

[Swede]

20 hours ago, Festina said:

You lack understanding.  

Given the depth of your responses, it would be suggested that my "understanding" is somewhat above passable.

.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

10 hours ago, Festina said:

Facetious you are.  Okay then. 

Not a fan of the film industry or Netflix or Tell -A- Vision or government liars and thieves.  Ya got any thing better?  Like a papyrus or another “lost” work from long ago? 

My dear woman, I have gotten this far in life on facetiousness (with just a hint of sarcasm) alone.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

5 hours ago, Festina said:

I know this.

And your right, I’m no longer interested in when it was built.  I want know why it and the others were built and the specific purpose for their construction.  

Honestly, I think they were built because someone with unlimited power said something to the tune of “I want to be buried under a mountain..... there *points to a map of Giza*” and then ignored everyone saying “there are no mountains there” with a curt “ Axe Man.... take these people away”. Soon enough someone decided to build a mountain for him to be buried under.

[Kenemet]

10 hours ago, Festina said:

So why were they made?  Yard Art  for giants? 

And what is the large mushroom shaped object on the left?  No sign of it today.  

 

THE NILE IN THE VICINITY OF GEBEL SILSILA 

 

How do we know that this is an accurate picture... like a photograph?

[Festina]

On 5/3/2020 at 12:15 AM, Kenemet said:

How do we know that this is an accurate picture... like a photograph?

He seems honest. There would have been no benefit to him to add something of that nature if it did not exist.  It would have discredited his work.  

Here’s  a photograph.....is it real? 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Still Waters
Image removed for copyright reasons

[Festina]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Honestly, I think they were built because someone with unlimited power said something to the tune of “I want to be buried under a mountain..... there *points to a map of Giza*” and then ignored everyone saying “there are no mountains there” with a curt “ Axe Man.... take these people away”. Soon enough someone decided to build a mountain for him to be buried under.

I don’t think so.  But it could be so.  

Has anyone ever done any research on what might be under the pyramid?  Has a tunnel been dug? 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Festina

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 5/3/2020 at 2:37 AM, Festina said:

He seems honest. There would have been no benefit to him to add something of that nature if it did not exist.  It would have discredited his work.  

Here’s  a photograph.....is it real? 

Real or not.... it’s cool. Anything that sparks imagination (or reminds me of Transformers Beast Wars) is worthwhile.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

52 minutes ago, Festina said:

I don’t think so.  But it could be so.  

Has anyone ever done any research on what might be under the pyramid?  Has a tunnel been dug? 

I think they might have run a GPR over the place and discovered a cave system (or was it alluvial water systems?) 

[Piney]

21 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

 (or was it alluvial water systems?) 

A funicular one? 

..........sorry.......

[Festina]

21 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I think they might have run a GPR over the place and discovered a cave system (or was it alluvial water systems?) 

They need to go deeper. 

[Thanos5150]

On 4/29/2020 at 11:01 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Lehner suggests the pyramid at Meidum was built as a cenotaph. 

Kurt Mendelssohn argued pyramids were not tombs but cenotaphs and did not have to be completed within a Pharaoh's lifetime.

I.E.S. Edwards considered it a possibility some of the pyramids credited to Sneferu may have been cenotaphs.

Egyptologist Vassil Dobrev has suggested the Sneferu pyramids were cenotaphs for the king's BA/KA.

Stadelmann argued the Bent Pyramid, if not started as such, was finished to be a cenotaph. 

Cult pyramids are considered to be cenotaphs.   

The Pyramid of Ahmose 18th Dynasty is accepted to have been built as a cenotaph. 

The Pyramid of Senwosret III is argued to have been a cenotaph. 

Ahmed Fakry says of the Black Pyramid dated to the reign of Amenemhat III “There is no doubt that the king was buried in his pyramid at Hawara and that this pyramid, in the necropolis of the Old Kingdom Pharaohs, was a cenotaph”.

The "southern pyramids" of the 3rd Dynasty contained no burials chambers and are thought among other things to be cenotaphs.  

The satellite pyramid of the BP's "burial chamber" is considered unable to have contained a burial and such suggested to have been a cenotaph.  

"No burial chamber was discovered under or near Queen Weret I’s pyramid, leading to the conclusion that she was interred elsewhere, perhaps at Lahun near the Fayum oasis with her presumed husband Senwosret II. In this case, Queen Weret I’s pyramid at Dahshur would have served as a cenotaph or memorial".

Many various structures throughout DE history including those at pyramid complexes are thought to have been cenotaphs for one purpose or another. 

The Cenotaphs of the Middle Kingdom at Abydos.

For early Dynastic cenotaphs see the OP. 

The southern tomb in Djoser's pyramid complex, with burial chamber nearly as large and superior in craftsmanship to that found in the actual pyramid, is commonly thought to have been a cenotaph though others argue the pyramid itself was the cenotaph and the sourthern tomb was the "real" burial chamber. Ironically one of the large mastabas at Beit Khallaf, hundreds of miles to the south, is also suggested as a possible cenotaph for Djoser.  Don't want to waste my time, but there is much about Djoser's complex that are faux which in part at least imply the complex was a replica and/or homage to a more ancient complex of which there are many interesting details as to Djoser's penchant for posterity. Of note as well is the pyramid (and some aspects of the complex) was expanded several times from its original plan(s).    

Djoser's successor, Sekhemkhet, apparently did not finish his pyramid but is famous, infamous perhaps, for his unusual sealed sarcophagus in the burial chamber being discovered in the 1950's only to be opened and found empty. Though there was also a southern tomb discovered in Sekhemkhet's complex, thought by some to be a cenotaph, most Egyptologists agree the pyramid itself was was not the actual burial place of Sekhemkhet. 

As the original discoverer, Goneim, concluded:

"... I feel fairly certain that the chamber I discovered beneath the new pyramid is another example of a "dummy tomb" or ritual burial. No other explanation will fit the facts, and unless other evidence is produced to contradict it, I shall continue to accept it. If this hypothesis is correct, it would explain why other kings of this remote period -- for example, Snofru -- built two tombs". 

Another pyramid speculatively attributed to the next 3rd Dynasty pharaoh Khaba, contained no sarcophagus in which the passage to the burial chamber is so narrow it is thought a sarcophagus could not be passed through regardless. Aspects of the pyramid imply it was never finished and regardless of who built it it is apparent no pharaoh was buried there. 

Northern Pyramid of Zawyet El Aryan, the "Pyramid of Baka", whose dating is disputed and no doubt predates the 4th Dynasty it is ascribed so I put it here, was unfinished leaving the unusual oval basin "sarcophagus", often referred to as a "vat" and possibly not a sarcophagus at all, open to the air, which among other reasons, leaving it highly unlikely an actual burial ever took place.

So to recap, we have Djoser with two burial chambers, one inside the pyramid and the other outside. Which is the "real" burial chamber and which the cenotaph, if either, is unknown. Then the next 3 pyramids attempted by pharaohs were unfinished and no pharaoh was ever buried in one. When we consider the latter, as a practical matter, these pharaohs spend their reign trying to make a "pyramid tomb" for themselves to be buried in yet they never finish and are never buried there- so what next- just chucked them in a ditch? Perhaps, using a little common sense, in conjunction with the known practice of multiple burial sites, they hedge their bets knowing they may not live to finish the pyramid and built a more modest tomb elsewhere which more than likely started before they even became king.      

We are left with the dual royal burial locations of the early Dynastic Period at Umm el-Qa'ab and Saqqara, one location being possible cenotaphs.  

Starting with the 3rd Dynasty pyramid age:

Djoser had two tombs, the southern tomb and the burial chamber of the pyramid which is unclear which or either was the actual burial chamber or the cenotaph. Actual burial location-unknown. 

Sekhemkhet attempted to build a pyramid and not only was he not buried there but a sealed sarcophagus interred during construction was found empty. A southern tomb was also found. Buried elsewhere.     

Presumably Khaba, the next pharaoh to attempt to build a pyramid, finished or not, was never buried there with the chamber system possibly unable to even fit a sarcophagus. Buried elsewhere. 

Zawyet El Aryan was unfinished and almost certainly did not contain a burial. Buried elsewhere. 

Meidum, again, no sarcophagus thought by some to be a cenotaph. The interior thought to be unfinished. The southern tomb is now replaced with a satellite pyramid. 

Snefefu built both the BP and RP which neither contained a sarcophagus and regardless he could not be buried in both let alone three pyramids (Meidum). The BP at the very least (with its two separate entrances, chamber systems and "burial chambers") is thought by many Egyptologists to have been a cenotaph. BP satellite pyramid, no sarcophagus and could not have contained one, also thought to be a cenotaph for the pharaoh's KA.

So leading up to G1 we have at best two of 7 major pyramids, if not one excluding the RP which had no sarcophagus, that not only had no royal burial and no reason to believe there ever was one, but most there is no doubt never did. And with the one that's left, Djoser, he had two burial chambers, one inside the pyramid, the other outside, and perhaps a 3rd at Beit Khallaf which no one is sure which he was actually buried in. 

And as a matter of common sense, as noted in the OP, not only is there the issue of the pharaoh knowing full well his pyramid would be looted making them just about the dumbest people who ever lived, but also that they may not even live to ever see it completed and have to be buried elsewhere regardless.  

 

 

[Djedi]

6 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

The southern tomb in Djoser's pyramid complex, with burial chamber nearly as large and superior in craftsmanship to that found in the actual pyramid, is commonly thought to have been a cenotaph though others argue the pyramid itself was the cenotaph and the sourthern tomb was the "real" burial chamber. Ironically one of the large mastabas at Beit Khallaf, hundreds of miles to the south, is also suggested as a possible cenotaph for Djoser.  Don't want to waste my time, but there is much about Djoser's complex that are faux which in part at least imply the complex was a replica and/or homage to a more ancient complex of which there are many interesting details as to Djoser's penchant for posterity. Of note as well is the pyramid (and some aspects of the complex) was expanded several times from its original plan(s).    

The burial vault in the southern tomb is much smaller than the one under the pyramid, to small to hold an actual burial. Most popular explanation is that this southern tomb was intended for the king's Ka and that a statue may have been intered here. The South tomb may have been the precursor of the later cult pyramids. Under Khafre's cult-pyramid a second separate tunnel was found containing a wooden box containing parts of a wooden shrineof a type which was used to house statues while moving them (many examples from reliefs in private tombs). A wooden box and carrying poles found in one of the magazines of the southern tomb may heve served the same purpose. (see Lehner, The Complete Pyramids, p. 92)

The Beit-Khallaf mastaba dates from Djoser's reign but there is no reason to assume this is a cenotaph for Djoser, it belongs to a local powerfull official, probably a gouvernor of some kind and is clearly a tomb.

6 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Djoser's successor, Sekhemkhet, apparently did not finish his pyramid but is famous, infamous perhaps, for his unusual sealed sarcophagus in the burial chamber being discovered in the 1950's only to be opened and found empty. Though there was also a southern tomb discovered in Sekhemkhet's complex, thought by some to be a cenotaph, most Egyptologists agree the pyramid itself was was not the actual burial place of Sekhemkhet. 

As the original discoverer, Goneim, concluded:

"... I feel fairly certain that the chamber I discovered beneath the new pyramid is another example of a "dummy tomb" or ritual burial. No other explanation will fit the facts, and unless other evidence is produced to contradict it, I shall continue to accept it. If this hypothesis is correct, it would explain why other kings of this remote period -- for example, Snofru -- built two tombs". 

Another pyramid speculatively attributed to the next 3rd Dynasty pharaoh Khaba, contained no sarcophagus in which the passage to the burial chamber is so narrow it is thought a sarcophagus could not be passed through regardless. Aspects of the pyramid imply it was never finished and regardless of who built it it is apparent no pharaoh was buried there. 

Northern Pyramid of Zawyet El Aryan, the "Pyramid of Baka", whose dating is disputed and no doubt predates the 4th Dynasty it is ascribed so I put it here, was unfinished leaving the unusual oval basin "sarcophagus", often referred to as a "vat" and possibly not a sarcophagus at all, open to the air, which among other reasons, leaving it highly unlikely an actual burial ever took place.

Was the unfinished complex of Sekhemkhet deemed insufficient to house the burial of the king and was the sarcophagus ritually sealed? Or did burial took place after all, was the mummy destroyed by tomb robbers and what Goneim found a restoration? 

Khaba's is another example of an unfinished funerary complex and here it's even more likely that burial never took place? 

The question one should ask here is "What happened to the body of the king when his tomb was not ready and deemed unfit to house it?" Burried elsewhere in a mastaba seems a logical answer, but no such tomb has been found or identified yet. There are still a lot of unexplored mastaba's near these two complexes so there is hope for the future unless these mastaba's have been plundered / destroyed to such and extent that it is impossible to identify it's owner (there's a lot of those unfortunatly).

The burrial of 5th dyn king Neferefre took place in it's unfinished complex, the unfinished pyramid was converted in a square mastaba. Why did they do this in this case and not in the 3rd dyn? No clear answers. Other criteria as to what was thought to be "unfit"?

The other pyramid at Zawyet El Aryan attributed to Baka dates most likely to the 4th Dyn, groundplan of the subterran part is like Djedefre's at Abu Roash but bigger, T-shaped trench. The empty oval sarcophagus was ritually burried and sealed beneath the pavement of the pit. Unexplored mastaba's are nearby.

8 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

So to recap, we have Djoser with two burial chambers, one inside the pyramid and the other outside. Which is the "real" burial chamber and which the cenotaph, if either, is unknown. Then the next 3 pyramids attempted by pharaohs were unfinished and no pharaoh was ever buried in one. When we consider the latter, as a practical matter, these pharaohs spend their reign trying to make a "pyramid tomb" for themselves to be buried in yet they never finish and are never buried there- so what next- just chucked them in a ditch? Perhaps, using a little common sense, in conjunction with the known practice of multiple burial sites, they hedge their bets knowing they may not live to finish the pyramid and built a more modest tomb elsewhere which more than likely started before they even became king.      

We are left with the dual royal burial locations of the early Dynastic Period at Umm el-Qa'ab and Saqqara, one location being possible cenotaphs.  

I agree that it is very probable that kings had a back-up plan in case they died before their pyramid was suitable for burial, unfortunatly none of these back-up tombs have been found (yet).

In the first dynastie we have the duality of the royal funerary complex, the tomb at Um el-Qa'ab and the funerary enclosure closer at the edge of the cultivated land. The notion of cenotaphs in this context is an outdated concept, the mastabas at Saqqara belong to the local elite. 

 

8 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Starting with the 3rd Dynasty pyramid age:

Djoser had two tombs, the southern tomb and the burial chamber of the pyramid which is unclear which or either was the actual burial chamber or the cenotaph. Actual burial location-unknown. 

Sekhemkhet attempted to build a pyramid and not only was he not buried there but a sealed sarcophagus interred during construction was found empty. A southern tomb was also found. Buried elsewhere.     

Presumably Khaba, the next pharaoh to attempt to build a pyramid, finished or not, was never buried there with the chamber system possibly unable to even fit a sarcophagus. Buried elsewhere. 

Zawyet El Aryan was unfinished and almost certainly did not contain a burial. Buried elsewhere. 

Meidum, again, no sarcophagus thought by some to be a cenotaph. The interior thought to be unfinished. The southern tomb is now replaced with a satellite pyramid. 

Snefefu built both the BP and RP which neither contained a sarcophagus and regardless he could not be buried in both let alone three pyramids (Meidum). The BP at the very least (with its two separate entrances, chamber systems and "burial chambers") is thought by many Egyptologists to have been a cenotaph. BP satellite pyramid, no sarcophagus and could not have contained one, also thought to be a cenotaph for the pharaoh's KA.

So leading up to G1 we have at best two of 7 major pyramids, if not one excluding the RP which had no sarcophagus, that not only had no royal burial and no reason to believe there ever was one, but most there is no doubt never did. And with the one that's left, Djoser, he had two burial chambers, one inside the pyramid, the other outside, and perhaps a 3rd at Beit Khallaf which no one is sure which he was actually buried in. 

And as a matter of common sense, as noted in the OP, not only is there the issue of the pharaoh knowing full well his pyramid would be looted making them just about the dumbest people who ever lived, but also that they may not even live to ever see it completed and have to be buried elsewhere regardless.  

 

 

There is no reason to assume that Djoser wasn't burried in the vault under the pyramid. The tomb shafts of his family members are also under the pyramid.

Sekhemkhet probably buried elsewhere, but we're talking about an unfinished pyramid complex, so that makes sense. Same goes for Khaba and Baka.

Meidum if intended for Sneferu, would indeed remain empty if he was eventualy buried in the Red pyramid. Why three pyramids? It seems the goal was to construct a true pyramid, which only succeeded with the RP. as a result Meidum and the BP remained empty. The floor of the RP was broken up, probably by looters thinking rooms could be hidden beneath it, like in some Middle Kingdom Pyramids, but that sort of decoys weren't used yet in the OK. If a sarcophagus stood there once, it has been destroyed in the process.

Did the Egyptian kings know their pyramids would be looted? You seem to think so, bit I doubt it. There is no reason to assume major looting activities of pyramids took place before the FIP when central authorithy collapsed. We have the odd "inside job" where people involved in the construction of the tomb robbed them shortly after burial took place; example mastaba nr 17; robbers knew exactly where to dig. Against this measures where taken such as granite porticulis blocks and granite blocking stones instead of the easier breakable limestone versions that were used before.

In the MK the pyramids had much more complicated safety measures against looters including hidden corridors and fake burial chambers, but in the end this isn't enough when central authority collapses and large gangs of looters or foreign invaders have free reign. They tried to protect their tombs but in the end they failed; a few exceptions from later periods such as the mostly intact tombs at Tanis and Tut's tomb have more to do with "dumb luck" than with effective safety measures.

[Thanos5150]

11 hours ago, Djedi said:

The burial vault in the southern tomb is much smaller than the one under the pyramid, to small to hold an actual burial. Most popular explanation is that this southern tomb was intended for the king's Ka and that a statue may have been intered [sic] here. The South tomb may have been the precursor of the later cult pyramids. Under Khafre's cult-pyramid a second separate tunnel was found containing a wooden box containing parts of a wooden shrineof [sic] a type which was used to house statues while moving them (many examples from reliefs in private tombs). A wooden box and carrying poles found in one of the magazines of the southern tomb may heve [sic] served the same purpose. (see Lehner, The Complete Pyramids, p. 92)

The Pyramids, Verner p125: This chamber [southern tomb burial chamber] is a slightly smaller almost exact copy of the tomb under the Step Pyramid.  

Which I say "...with burial chamber nearly as large..." I think "slightly smaller" and "nearly as large" are about the same thing don't you? Regardless, it is quite small hence why some think it held the viscera and not an actual body.      

Quoting Verner "Many researchers have considered this to be Djoser's real tomb". 

RE later cult pyramids, which in context are also often referred to as the satellite pyramid (not one and the same): "Meidum, again, no sarcophagus thought by some to be a cenotaph. The interior thought to be unfinished. The southern tomb is now replaced with a satellite pyramid".

Regardless, what we have here in Djoser's complex is clear precedent for a two tomb system which of course both (if either) cannot be the actual tomb with the other a cenotaph or the like. 

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The Beit-Khallaf mastaba dates from Djoser's reign but there is no reason to assume this is a cenotaph for Djoser, it belongs to a local powerfull [sic] official, probably a gouvernor [sic] of some kind and is clearly a tomb.

You just saying this does not make it so as some Egyptologists, with reason, do in fact believe it may have been a southern cenotaph for Djoser.  The other large mastaba at BK, K2, is also attributed to a pharaoh, Sanakht, who ruled either before or after Djoser.  Some Egyptologists also thought mastaba 17 at Meidum was the "real" tomb of Sneferu. 

You say: "...it belongs to a local powerfull[sic] official, probably a gouvernor[sic] of some kind and is clearly a tomb". as a "fact" and yet point by point there is zero evidence it is true. Again, you just saying it does not make it so and the fact you do only confuses the issue.  

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Was the unfinished complex of Sekhemkhet deemed insufficient to house the burial of the king and was the sarcophagus ritually sealed? Or did burial took place after all, was the mummy destroyed by tomb robbers and what Goneim found a restoration? 

You could answer these questions yourself if you need clarification as to common consensus. I quote Goneim (again) :

"... I feel fairly certain that the chamber I discovered beneath the new pyramid is another example of a "dummy tomb" or ritual burial. No other explanation will fit the facts, and unless other evidence is produced to contradict it, I shall continue to accept it. If this hypothesis is correct, it would explain why other kings of this remote period -- for example, Snofru -- built two tombs". 

 

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Khaba's is another example of an unfinished funerary complex and here it's even more likely that burial never took place? 

I did not say which was more likely or not, but what did I say? Again:

Another pyramid speculatively attributed to the next 3rd Dynasty pharaoh Khaba, contained no sarcophagus in which the passage to the burial chamber is so narrow it is thought a sarcophagus could not be passed through regardless. Aspects of the pyramid imply it was never finished and regardless of who built it it is apparent no pharaoh was buried there. 

If by comparison Khaba contains no sarcophagus and is unlikely to have ever had one, given the nature of the shaft this means what as to which is more or less likely than the other that does at least contain a sarcophagus? 

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The question one should ask here is "What happened to the body of the king when his tomb was not ready and deemed unfit to house it?" Burried [sic] elsewhere in a mastaba seems a logical answer, but no such tomb has been found or identified yet. There are still a lot of unexplored mastaba's near these two complexes so there is hope for the future unless these mastaba's have been plundered / destroyed to such and extent that it is impossible to identify it's owner (there's a lot of those unfortunatly [sic]).

This is a question any would have to ask if their tomb was not completed by their death hence why I say this:

"When we consider the latter, as a practical matter, these pharaohs spend their reign trying to make a "pyramid tomb" for themselves to be buried in yet they never finish and are never buried there- so what next- just chucked them in a ditch? Perhaps, using a little common sense, in conjunction with the known practice of multiple burial sites, they hedge their bets knowing they may not live to finish the pyramid and built a more modest tomb elsewhere which more than likely started before they even became king".      

So here we have a situation that we know they were not buried in the pyramid, but elsewhere, though we have yet to find these locations either. Hmm. Sounds familiar. 

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The burrial [sic] of 5th dyn king Neferefre took place in it's unfinished complex, the unfinished pyramid was converted in a square mastaba. Why did they do this in this case and not in the 3rd dyn? No clear answers. Other criteria as to what was thought to be "unfit"?

Taking this scenario at face value, Neferefre, who is thought to have ruled 2yrs or less, is a one off. Or rather his probably 2nd successor Niuserre as it was he who not only took the time to finish it off as a mastaba but also build the mortuary temple after the fact. Regardless, one guy doing this 2 centuries later is hardly a trend which we also find another unfinished pyramid next to it, possibly started by his immediate possible successor Shepseskare, which was abandoned.   

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The other pyramid at Zawyet El Aryan attributed to Baka dates most likely to the 4th Dyn, groundplan [sic] of the subterran [sic] part is like Djedefre's at Abu Roash but bigger, T-shaped trench. The empty oval sarcophagus was ritually burried [sic] and sealed beneath the pavement of the pit. Unexplored mastaba's are nearby.

Abu Roash has its own dating problems, which Zawyet El Aryan must have been built around the same time, and both in some form are argued to predate the 4th Dynasty. I agree and as others, including some Egyptologists, do not believe either were pyramids. Regardless, the unusual "sarcophagi", also referred to as a "tank" or "vat", is thought by some Egyptologists to have been added after the fact made out of one of the foundation blocks which given the superstructure above it was never added, most likely there was never meant to be one, there is no reason to believe there was ever a burial there. Regarding the "sarcophagus", Barsanti did not think it was such but rather "a libation vessel whose lid served as an offering table".  The lid was plastered to the oval tank and when removed was empty except for a black sludge of sorts.  

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I agree that it is very probable that kings had a back-up plan in case they died before their pyramid was suitable for burial, unfortunatly none of these back-up tombs have been found (yet).

We have precedent, archaeology, ideology, geography, and practicality all pointing to the need of building two tombs. 

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In the first dynastie [sic] we have the duality of the royal funerary complex, the tomb at Um el-Qa'ab and the funerary enclosure closer at the edge of the cultivated land. The notion of cenotaphs in this context is an outdated concept, the mastabas at Saqqara belong to the local elite. 

No, it is not "outdated" though as I have said newer evidence suggests the tombs at Saqqara were for administrators and/or queen's. Which we are left with the question, for another time, then why were the non-pharaonic burials so superior to that of the pharaohs themselves? The greater point being made relevant to the discussion is that the idea of cenotaphs from the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt to the pyramids of the MK, i.e. pyramids not built as tombs, is part and parcel of Egyptological debate and discovery which the idea is by no means the exclusive realm of the fringe as some erroneously suggest. Just not true.

Regarding the duality of the necropolis of Umm el-Qa'ab and the monumental enclosure system located elsewhere, I go into detail about this in the OP which for me is precedent for ceremonial monumental architecture surround by the burials of subjects located in one area and actual burial site of the pharoah located elsewhere.  

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There is no reason to assume that Djoser wasn't burried in the vault under the pyramid. The tomb shafts of his family members are also under the pyramid.

All things considered there is no reason to assume he was buried there and as I said the idea he was not buried in the pyramid is suggested by some Egyptologists as well. 

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Sekhemkhet probably buried elsewhere, but we're talking about an unfinished pyramid complex, so that makes sense. Same goes for Khaba and Baka.

Right, so just on a practical level we are required to accept the fact a pharaoh needed two tombs from the onset which the non-pyramid tombs the go to.

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Meidum if intended for Sneferu, would indeed remain empty if he was eventualy [sic] buried in the Red pyramid. Why three pyramids? It seems the goal was to construct a true pyramid, which only succeeded with the RP. as a result Meidum and the BP remained empty. The floor of the RP was broken up, probably by looters thinking rooms could be hidden beneath it, like in some Middle Kingdom Pyramids, but that sort of decoys weren't used yet in the OK. If a sarcophagus stood there once, it has been destroyed in the process.

There is no reason to believe Meidum was built for Sneferu if only to the contrary with the tower core seen today built as a finished structure with at best Sneferu being responsible for the outer pyramid conversion layer. If interested see my posts HERE. Regardless, again, Lehner suggest it was built as a cenotaph which at worst shows us Egyptologists themselves agree at least some pyramids, as I noted, were not intended for burial.

Despite the progression of pyramid construction between Meidum and the RP, regardless many argue the BP was built as cenotaph nonetheless which again I note the BP satellite pyramid was not intended for a burial either. We also note again, the opposing dual entries and passage/chamber systems of the BP so from the get go we are left to challenge the notion it was ever intended for an actual burial. Regarding the RP, we are left to ask why the floor was torn up which more than likely suggests they found no sarcophagus or burial and tore up the floor looking for a secret burial underneath. Which there was none.    

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Did the Egyptian kings know their pyramids would be looted? You seem to think so, bit I doubt it. There is no reason to assume major looting activities of pyramids took place before the FIP when central authorithy collapsed. We have the odd "inside job" where people involved in the construction of the tomb robbed them shortly after burial took place; example mastaba nr 17; robbers knew exactly where to dig. Against this measures where taken such as granite porticulis blocks and granite blocking stones instead of the easier breakable limestone versions that were used before.

If they did not think they would be looted then what is the point of supposedly protecting them? I doubt it was to keep whatever was inside in. A system dating back to the 1st Dynasty no less. We also have examples of the 5th/6th Dynasty pharaohs looting materials from their predecessors to build their monuments not to mention testaments in at least one tomb of the period proud of the fact they built theirs from scratch instead of, as this person laments, commonly looting materials from others. Tomb robbing of themselves is nothing new and is found before the pyramid age as well.   

The use of granite portcullis doors goes back to the tombs of the 1st Dynasty:

But interesting you mention the portcullis system as the lack thereof in many pyramids is one of the specific reasons why some suggest certain pyramids were not made to inter the actual burial. 

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In the MK the pyramids had much more complicated safety measures against looters including hidden corridors and fake burial chambers, but in the end this isn't enough when central authority collapses and large gangs of looters or foreign invaders have free reign. They tried to protect their tombs but in the end they failed; a few exceptions from later periods such as the mostly intact tombs at Tanis and Tut's tomb have more to do with "dumb luck" than with effective safety measures.

The other security measure the pyramid builders of the MK took was building them as cenotaphs and not actually being buried in them. 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

4 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

The use of granite portcullis doors goes back to the tombs of the 1st Dynasty:

 

My photo crapped out. A link to the same: HERE.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Thanos5150

[M. Williams]

7 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

 

 

Thanos, the tower core you speak of is a byproduct of building with accretion layers. The meidum core as seen today does not have finished casing stones and not all pyramids are constructed that way. 

 

Also, a pyramid can be both a "cenotaph" and a "tomb" for a single pharoah. For me those words just clutter things up and are unnecessarily binary.