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If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?


Thanos5150

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11 minutes ago, M. Williams said:

 

 

Thanks for the good info Wep 100%.

 

Some thoughts - The placement of the two horned bovine at the top would indicate they were gods, placed above everything ,right ?  However, the bull at the bottom is side view and not pictured as a god. This leads me to believe they are not representations of the same god or animal. Also, the bull is crushing a rebellion at the bottom indicating this wasn't a time of peace in Lower Egypt and military force was needed to keep it unified ?.

In Egyptian iconography it is not neccesarily the case that what is at the top of a scene is the most important element, that is what we tend to do, God looking down from a cloud etc. But in so simple an object it is difficult not to read it this way, though, due to the way they laid out scenes in registers, it is at the top as it is first in the reading order, and may not be the most important element, and the king in the smiting scene is certainly the main element on the reverse of the palette. It may seem to split hairs, but the top register with the king's name and probably flanked by a god may be seen as an introduction or announcement, "This is the king, blessed/supported by X?, see what he does". Though there is an element on my part of looking at what became normal for scene layouts later, and reading this in the same way, but all things have a beginning.

The bull at the bottom of the obverse side is probably just a bull, not a god as it is to early for Apis, he was present, but became a god later. Whether it represents the king or not I don't know as it was not normal to represent the king as anything other than himself, while alive. There is no evidence of any military activity in Egypt either before or in the aftermath of the union, that comes later. That of course does not mean that there was not, but if there was, then no evidence has been left. Whether the palette itself is evidence is a matter for debate, but if so, then it stands by itself with no supporting evidence.

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4 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

And the images of undoubted bulls posted by Thanos have upturned horns, which I would say in frontal view would look the same as the bovines on the Narmer palette.

As noted before, the serekh mastaba complexes at Saqqara had long benches with real bull horns embedded in models of bull heads:

1stdynsaqqara5.jpg

The bull was a prominent figure in Mesopotamian ideology of the time and was common for certain buildings in Elam (Iran) in the 4th millennium to have large bull horns prominently attached to their exteriors. Examples found HERE

 

Coinciding with the two main phases of the Uruk expansion, the Naqada II Mesopotamian influence in Egypt is largely Elamite whereas the later Naqada III Urukian.   

Edited by Thanos5150
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Just a nitpick, but Bat was the fetish goddess of the 7th nome of UPPER Egypt; Hathor for the 6th.   The 6th and 7th nomes of Lower Egypt, Kaset and Ament, were represented by fetish standards for Wadjet and Hu, respectively.

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19 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

Just a nitpick, but Bat was the fetish goddess of the 7th nome of UPPER Egypt; Hathor for the 6th.   The 6th and 7th nomes of Lower Egypt, Kaset and Ament, were represented by fetish standards for Wadjet and Hu, respectively.

Your'e right, and it's not a nitpick, it's a silly unforced error by me. I don't even know why I for one second put Hathor in Lower Egypt. I think there's some name for how this error is made when one person makes an error, then a second gets it in their head and compounds it. Either way, at least the main point that there was no known fighting during the unification of Egypt still stands.

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14 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

There are several pre/early Dynastic building types and they are not built using palace facade and I have yet to see a palace facade building in Egypt not part of a funerary context.        

Of note, the one exception to this rule not found in a mortuary complex is the large palace facade gateway found at Hierakonpolis dated to the beginnings of the 1st Dynasty and believed to be part of a larger administrative building complex:

2-dcacf4c079.jpg'

3-ba3fa8a526.jpg

 

It is thought to date to Naqada III and appears to have been preserved by later Dynasties who built there.

Mesopotamian influence at Hierakonpolis is significant dating back to the Naqada II period including among other things a Mesopotamian building referred to as the "Temple Oval".   

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2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Coinciding with the two main phases of the Uruk expansion, the Naqada II Mesopotamian influence in Egypt is largely Elamite whereas the later Naqada III Urukian.   

I should point out with the latter comment, the palettes attributed to Naqada III would be an exception which are more Elamite. Though you can still see the Mesopotamian influences on the Narmer palette it is quite different being clearly more "Egyptian like" than many of the other early Dynastic palettes which the latter in context of AE art are quite out of place. Several of these archaic palettes were not found in their original archaeological context but was part of a cache discovered between walls at Saqqara dating to the 3rd Dynasty. It appears someone saved them for posterity. Though these are dated to Naqada III (Dynasty 0-" though Narmer/Iry-Hor i.e. the very beginning of the 1st Dynasty, personally I believe it is more likely this cache of Elamite palettes dates to Naqada II belonging to the period of Elamite influence at Hierakonpolis than it does . 

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6 hours ago, The Wistman said:

Just a nitpick, but Bat was the fetish goddess of the 7th nome of UPPER Egypt; Hathor for the 6th.   The 6th and 7th nomes of Lower Egypt, Kaset and Ament, were represented by fetish standards for Wadjet and Hu, respectively.

Thanks for the info. Wistman .

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6 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

As noted before, the serekh mastaba complexes at Saqqara had long benches with real bull horns embedded in models of bull heads:

1stdynsaqqara5.jpg

The bull was a prominent figure in Mesopotamian ideology of the time and was common for certain buildings in Elam (Iran) in the 4th millennium to have large bull horns prominently attached to their exteriors. Examples found HERE

 

Coinciding with the two main phases of the Uruk expansion, the Naqada II Mesopotamian influence in Egypt is largely Elamite whereas the later Naqada III Urukian.   

Can you show some evidence those are males ?

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6 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Your'e right, and it's not a nitpick, it's a silly unforced error by me. I don't even know why I for one second put Hathor in Lower Egypt. I think there's some name for how this error is made when one person makes an error, then a second gets it in their head and compounds it. Either way, at least the main point that there was no known fighting during the unification of Egypt still 

Don't be so scared of being wrong. It's how we learn, right ?

So Thinis could be in the 7th nome with Bat being the goddess of the region Narmer presided in .? I like that much better.

I guess all the geniuses here were waiting for later to point this out...

P.T.

I am Praise; I am Majesty; I am Bat with HER TWO FACES; I am the One Who Is Saved, and I have saved myself from all things evil.

...and this ? 

http://giza.fas.harvard.edu/objects/25652/full/

 

Granted it's from a later period, female/ King iconography and sculpture showing their close association can be found if you look. 

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I forgot to mention the palettes close association  with the design of the sistrum. The sistrum being associated with Bat/Hathor and ,and of course, the 7th nome is associated with the sistrum. 

 

So they aren't Bulls.

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4 hours ago, Trelane said:

So has there been any progress in proposed locations of where the pharaohs are buried in support of the OP?

Hi Trelane

Not since I admitted what Clad( especially Cladie), Sesh and I did with them several pages back.:whistle:

jmccr8

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On 4/23/2020 at 1:03 AM, Thanos5150 said:

Egyptology holds that pyramids were built as tombs for the pharaohs, yet no royal burial has ever been found in one.
 


Some rulers were buried elsewhere. For example, the Hatshepsut mummy was taken out of a small tomb KV60 and was initially taken as the queen's nurse and identified later in the Egyptian museum in Cairo.
This great queen-pharaoh was embodied after many times on earth and reached an unprecedented spiritual development.
This is the greatest and most powerful woman on the planet preparing the transition of mankind to the divine level of consciousness and body.

Spoiler

220px-Hatshepsut.jpg

large-kneeling-statue-hatshepsut-metropo

main-image

 

Edited by Coil
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8 hours ago, Trelane said:

So has there been any progress in proposed locations of where the pharaohs are buried in support of the OP?

The, as it turned out, weird foray into the narmer Palette aside, progress could be made by discussing whether the pyramid of Senusret III was his tomb, or whether it is a cenotaph and he was buried at Abydos. And discussing the whereabouts of Amenemhat IV and Sobekneferu if they were never buried in the Southern and Northern Mazghuna pyramids respectively, and neither has a mortuary temple at Mazghuna or anywhere else.

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On 5/25/2020 at 6:37 AM, Wepwawet said:

The bull at the bottom of the obverse side is probably just a bull, not a god as it is to early for Apis, he was present, but became a god later. 

Aelian claimed the Apis cult began under Menes.

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18 hours ago, M. Williams said:

Can you show some evidence those are males ?

I don't understand what the point of you is. In general. You are the intellectual equivalent of stepping on a turd. 

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On 5/25/2020 at 8:37 AM, Wepwawet said:

The bull at the bottom of the obverse side is probably just a bull, not a god as it is to early for Apis, he was present, but became a god later. Whether it represents the king or not I don't know as it was not normal to represent the king as anything other than himself, while alive.

Though it might be a reference to a proto-image/title "strong bull of his mother."

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3 hours ago, M. Williams said:

Aelian claimed the Apis cult began under Menes.

Aelian lived in 170 AD -- 3,000 years after Menes.  Our own (modern) info about events in 1,000 BC (3,000 years ago) is pretty sketchy.  I don't think he should be considered as reliable as Egyptian information and documentation.

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11 hours ago, Coil said:


Some rulers were buried elsewhere. For example, the Hatshepsut mummy was taken out of a small tomb KV60 and was initially taken as the queen's nurse and identified later in the Egyptian museum in Cairo.
This great queen-pharaoh was embodied after many times on earth and reached an unprecedented spiritual development.
This is the greatest and most powerful woman on the planet preparing the transition of mankind to the divine level of consciousness and body.

  Hide contents

220px-Hatshepsut.jpg

large-kneeling-statue-hatshepsut-metropo

main-image

 

Okay....there's a few things we should add to this:

First is that pyramids had gone out of favor and were replaced by large mortuary temples (Dier el Bahri) with private burials (Valley of the Kings) elsewhere since the pyramids attracted robbers.

Second, her body was moved along with many others after their tombs had been disturbed.  They were all put into a single tomb and that was re-locked.

And I don't see how you can support the last two statements about her being reincarnated (she herself did not believe this) and change in consciousness since her influence was Egypt only and there's a lot of the world that she never touched.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Though it might be a reference to a proto-image/title "strong bull of his mother."

That's highly likely, same as the sistrum inference, and there are also probable references to the either the 7th or 8th nomes of Lower Egypt, the West and East Harpoon nomes, and to posibly the 3rd Lower nome, West, as it is the only one except Sopdu that has a falcon emblem. I still maintain that none of the standards are for nomes though. I stepped outside my box to look at the palette from a different angle....

Edited by Wepwawet
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50 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Aelian lived in 170 AD -- 3,000 years after Menes.  Our own (modern) info about events in 1,000 BC (3,000 years ago) is pretty sketchy.  I don't think he should be considered as reliable as Egyptian information and documentation.

Just to make the original quote by me clearer, what I meant by saying that Apis was around but not yet a god, was that he is known from the 1st Dynasty, but does not become a god until the 2nd. I would think that he dates back into pre-dynastic times just like a number of other gods.

Edited by Wepwawet
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57 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Just to make the original quote by me clearer, what I meant by saying that Apis was around but not yet a god, was that he is known from the 1st Dynasty, but does not become a god until the 2nd. I would think that he dates back into pre-dynastic times just like a number of other gods.

Agreed.  Cattle were an important symbol to the predynastic people and it makes sense that they would center a deity around cattle or that a deity would have a bovine form.

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16 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Trelane

Not since I admitted what Clad( especially Cladie), Sesh and I did with them several pages back.:whistle:

jmccr8

Yeah I figured as much, just checking though ;). Just wanted to sway things back on course. Not that the back and forth hasn't been informative. It just does nothing to speak towards the OP (as far as I could discern).

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At the Hall of Ma'at an interesting post about something I had not heard of before.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,627850,627853#msg-627853

 

Quote

Hermione Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm reliably informed that the name Akhet Khufu
> appears on a block from the southern causeway at
> Giza, and is discussed in Hassan (1960), Giza X:
> 23 (reader 32). 2. It A photograph of the block
> can be found on Plate VI B (Reader 163).
>
>

 

4k8nTf.jpg

I asked where this might exactly be - but I though some of smart people here might know also. Thanos, Djedi or Wep do you guys mention it before?

Edited by Hanslune
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