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If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?


Thanos5150
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2 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I'm not sure what it is you want me to make a clarification on, the PT or the pyramids or the mortuary temples. I guess it wouldn't be the PT, therefore I believe that a pyramid is a tomb, bar any without a burial chamber, and where, for instance with Amenemhat III, we have two pyramids, both are tombs, though he was of course in the Hawara pyramid. The three for Sneferu I'll admit are a puzzle.

I cannot see the structures abutting pyramids as anything except mortuary temples. The pyramid is a necropolis feature, so they cannot be the temple to a god as they don't belong in the necropolis, however, the dead king is now a god, but then his worship wChen dead is what a mortuary temple is for, and a place to lay offerings.

No not you, sorry. I was speaking towards @cladking. I must've mis-quoted. My apologies. Just want him to say plainly what he thinks they are or were meant to be.

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16 minutes ago, Trelane said:

No not you, sorry. I was speaking towards @cladking. I must've mis-quoted. My apologies. Just want him to say plainly what he thinks they are or were meant to be.

Good luck :D

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4 hours ago, Trelane said:

Ok, could you distill your answer down to basic terms? I'm not very well versed on AE and just want to know what YOU think they are specifically. Thanks.

I guess this is directed at me.  

This is really pretty simple.   Ancient people didn't think (or talk) like me or any Egyptologist in the world.  They were completely different in every ":practical" way.  Everything they did, said, and thought was an outgrowth of their knowledge and the means they used to acquire that knowledge.   It's impossible to put their thinking or words into English but I'll try the best I can.   The pyramids were built to remember the king.  By day they saw the pyramid and remembered the king.  By night they could see the star that was associated with the pyramid and they remembered the king.  This is "life after death" to natural language speakers and those who were Egyptians.   We might say that the pyramid was a "mnemonic" or a "cenotaph" but these are just words and ancient people didn't use words in this way.   To them the pyramid IS the king as it's the only part of him that survives (his memory).   This is why they said over and over literally and consistently that the "pyramid is the king and the king is the pyramid.  They said the king is a star because he was both a pyramid and a star.   

All the great pyramids are "mnemonics".   

There is a related concept in modern language to "cenotaph" or "mnemonic" that also applied ONLY to G1.   In addition to G1 being a mnemonic it was ALSO a "time capsule".  "Time capsule" is just another word though and in this case it is far more than a mere collection of trivia enclosed in the foundation of a structure.  It is a great deal more.   Inscribed on the walls of the heat sink clearly visible on the gravimetric (et al) scan under the NE corner is all ancient knowledge and the means used to discover it along with numerous specimens and samples.   

 

This is all clearly spelled out in the evidence and cultural context.   There is a "mountain of evidence" that says we are wrong in our interpretations.   We see what we expect and nobody ever expected our ancestors to have 40,000 years of science.  I stumbled upon this by solving the writing in context instead of in terms of the "book of the dead" while simultaneously reverse engineering all the great pyramids.  It is keeping the data within its proper context which shows these things and shows there are no bodies, no mortuary temples, and no funerary functions for any great pyramid.   

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3 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Entertainment value is directly correlated to the amount of alcohol imbibed. Levels which impede most rational thought are required to truly enhance the value of his postings. I recommend having at least two 750ml bottles of whiskey or single malts scotch at hand before embarking of a reexamination of Clad's ideas. Doesn't mean that he is right, but it does transform the excruciating monotony of his exclamations into an amusing diversion from reality. 

I’d recommend moonshine, if you’re going to entertain such an amusing diversion from reality, as you call it, do it right. :lol:

cormac

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54 minutes ago, cladking said:

... no mortuary temples... 

The utilization of mortuary temples, in/of various forms/intentions, dates back at least as far as the Early Dynastic (ED) period. To argue that the structures associated with the Giza pyramids are not mortuary-related once again demonstrates your profound ignorance of the archaeological record and your inability to deal with credible data. Try reading some actual research for a change:

https://core.ac.uk/reader/29141465

An additional note: You are continually operating under the mistaken belief that we can only understand past cultures through written material (that only you can understand [!]). Rubbish. We rather routinely re-construct the life-ways of previous cultures who did not utilize "written" records of any sort. But to understand this aspect would require you to actually learn something. The odds of this latter happening are admittedly quite poor.

.

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4 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Ah too bad I don't drink can't stand the stuff. Could I get the same affect by having large folks batter my head with cricket bats?

The effect would likely be marginal. For obvious reasons, the bats that crickets utilize are quite tiny, as is their baseball diamond.

.

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1 hour ago, cladking said:

I guess this is directed at me.  

This is really pretty simple.   Ancient people didn't think (or talk) like me or any Egyptologist in the world.  They were completely different in every ":practical" way.  Everything they did, said, and thought was an outgrowth of their knowledge and the means they used to acquire that knowledge.   It's impossible to put their thinking or words into English but I'll try the best I can.   The pyramids were built to remember the king.  By day they saw the pyramid and remembered the king.  By night they could see the star that was associated with the pyramid and they remembered the king.  This is "life after death" to natural language speakers and those who were Egyptians.   We might say that the pyramid was a "mnemonic" or a "cenotaph" but these are just words and ancient people didn't use words in this way.   To them the pyramid IS the king as it's the only part of him that survives (his memory).   This is why they said over and over literally and consistently that the "pyramid is the king and the king is the pyramid.  They said the king is a star because he was both a pyramid and a star.   

All the great pyramids are "mnemonics".   

There is a related concept in modern language to "cenotaph" or "mnemonic" that also applied ONLY to G1.   In addition to G1 being a mnemonic it was ALSO a "time capsule".  "Time capsule" is just another word though and in this case it is far more than a mere collection of trivia enclosed in the foundation of a structure.  It is a great deal more.   Inscribed on the walls of the heat sink clearly visible on the gravimetric (et al) scan under the NE corner is all ancient knowledge and the means used to discover it along with numerous specimens and samples.   

 

This is all clearly spelled out in the evidence and cultural context.   There is a "mountain of evidence" that says we are wrong in our interpretations.   We see what we expect and nobody ever expected our ancestors to have 40,000 years of science.  I stumbled upon this by solving the writing in context instead of in terms of the "book of the dead" while simultaneously reverse engineering all the great pyramids.  It is keeping the data within its proper context which shows these things and shows there are no bodies, no mortuary temples, and no funerary functions for any great pyramid.   

So your saying only G1 is an anomaly? You keep mentioning evidence or as you said "mountains of evidence". I have yet to see any credible form of evidence presented that singles out G1 as an anomaly. You can keep the receipt, I'm not buying any of it.

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8 minutes ago, Trelane said:

So your saying only G1 is an anomaly? You keep mentioning evidence or as you said "mountains of evidence". I have yet to see any credible form of evidence presented that singles out G1 as an anomaly. You can keep the receipt, I'm not buying any of it.

Well put.

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2 hours ago, cladking said:

 

This is really pretty simple.   Ancient people didn't think (or talk) like me or any Egyptologist in the world.  They were completely different in every ":practical" way.  Everything they did, said, and thought was an outgrowth of their knowledge and the means they used to acquire that knowledge.   It's impossible to put their thinking or words into English but I'll try the best I can.   T

Laughing, so Cladking STILL trying to play that tattered card. As many have noted you weren't actually there were you? No, didn't think so.

 

All this is just your ego driven opinion of your made up stuff. Now your stuff about the pyramids being built as memorials all tombs are so nothing special there.

 

 

Quote

 

There is a related concept in modern language to "cenotaph" or "mnemonic" that also applied ONLY to G1.   In addition to G1 being a mnemonic it was ALSO a "time capsule".  "Time capsule" is just another word though and in this case it is far more than a mere collection of trivia enclosed in the foundation of a structure.  It is a great deal more.   Inscribed on the walls of the heat sink clearly visible on the gravimetric (et al) scan under the NE corner is all ancient knowledge and the means used to discover it along with numerous specimens and samples.   

 

Oh, my you don't like G2 huh - did it kick your dog or something?

Cladking believes all manner of things are in that part of the pyramid but it is all the product of his feverish brain, an intense and irrational hatred of Egyptology, Hawass and science.

 

 

Quote

There is a "mountain of evidence" that says we are wrong in our interpretations

  The legendary mountain of evidence is Cladking's brain his bit of noodle has made up all this stuff. He has been asked for a decade plus to provide us with all this 'evidence'.

 

Yet it never actually shows up

 

LOL

 

Well he will now repeat the claims

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Well, he will now repeat the claims.

Ad infinitum. Which could well lead to yet another topic closure.

It would be interesting to accumulate the statistical data in regards to UM topic closures. It may not be unreasonable to speculate that Clad has been solely responsible for more UM topic closures than any other single contributor. Not to mention his other "exploits".

.

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I am not so sure that all cultures agree with the OP: No bodies = Not tombs.  I recall some Islamic accounts of a body being found in the Great Pyramid, a warrior King perhaps, with splendid armor.  Maybe some of the sharper minds here on these boards can comment?

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14 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Further questions raised will be, what decoration/spells were considered as even a bare minimum in any part of the tomb or it's wider complex before we see the PT with Unas. For while I said that the PT do not emerge from a vacuum, they emerged from texts written on papyrus rolls, and so long gone as evidence.

As I said before:

Regardless, we would note that all of these date to the mid 5th Dynasty and later which obviously is the precipice of cultural change which among other things the coming of Osiris with the first mention of him, along with several other "new gods", found in the tomb of Ptahshepses dated to the reign of Nyuserre Ini, brother possible successor of Neferefre. So if we do accept these are royal burials, which Neferefe and Djedkare Isesi I admit are interesting, the question is what changed? Regardless, it is still true at the least that prior to this period no royal burial has been found in any pyramid-"intact" or otherwise.  

There was no "Osiris" prior to this time or PT with the span of roughly 80yrs between Osiris's first mention and Unas- more than enough time for these ideas to develop where before they were otherwise mostly non-existent.   

Quote

We know with certainty that this "roadmap to eternity" was of crucial importance from Unas, but we do not find anything like this before Unas. It seems to me that what was important, as a bare minimum, is the sah, the mummified wrapped body and it's coffin or coffins, including the stone one we refer to as the sarcophagus, the serdab and a statue of the king to house his ka.

 

No, there was no anything like it before Unas and yet for some reason some want to impose the PT on the pyramid builders that came before. 

Quote

The presence of the serekh facade indicates that here we have a king in his "palace of the dead", but this is not loaded with the same religious beliefs we see in the PT, far from it. I would see the serekh as being the symbol of the king and the state, and while religion is everywhere in ancient Egypt, it is more akin to the emblems of statehood we have today, an eagle or lion are typical, and in the UK along with it's three lions, a depiction of a portculis to represent parliament. So I wonder if Horus, or another animal, on the serekh is much different, and that the king's Horus name simply says that this is the head of state.

It was also the symbol of kingship in life, but obviously much more than that. As I have spoken of and pictured in this thread at length, examples of the serekh palace facade building are ubiquitous among non-kings found on their sarcophagi and mastabas including by extension the false door. While no doubt since the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt the serekh building was associated with kingship it is clear it was an ideology unto itself shared just as much if not more so by the people. The key to its meaning in a funerary context would appear to be the false door, a door from this building, which is the gateway for the KA between the world of the living and the dead. To enter this door to the land of the dead you are entering the serekh building. I do not believe it was the "palace of the king", dead or alive, implying ownership, but rather that the king was the symbolic "steward" of this place that was accessible for all the dead that could obtain passage to (through) it in the afterlife. The question is how did they come to such beliefs? Of which boat burials would be a part. I believe this ideology stems directly from something they saw which they formed a belief system around. .   

But no, it is clearly has nothing to do with the religious beliefs expressed in the PT and also clear it was the dominant ideology of the pyramid age and before.  

Quote

So, when we look at a royal tomb before Unas, what should we expect to see in the way of crucial decoration, decoration with an important religious ritual function. My point being that while we do not find the remnants of decoration with the mortuary temple of G2, should we actually expect there to be anything substantial anyway. That's a real question, not a statement of fact :)

...?  I would think this would not be a question for you but if so I have already "shown you the way" (*urp*) in post #531. Scenes of the Heb Sed, funerary offerings from their royal estates, etc, etc. Later, beginning with Userkaf, these grow to include nature scenes as well, the king hunting and the like. This is exactly what we would expect to find in any mortuary temple which are absent from several I describe in post #531, not just G2, which is an entirely different funerary program unrelated to the PT.  For example, from Sneferu's valley temple:

640px-See_09.180.18_MET_DT259173_(croppe

6510212895_f2683275c3.jpg

main-qimg-1812d95679141f3444e139d8028abc

Edited by Thanos5150
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1 hour ago, Megaro said:

I am not so sure that all cultures agree with the OP: No bodies = Not tombs.  I recall some Islamic accounts of a body being found in the Great Pyramid, a warrior King perhaps, with splendid armor.  Maybe some of the sharper minds here on these boards can comment?

I hope not as this is specifically what the OP does not say. 

From the very first lines of the OP:

Quote

Egyptology holds that pyramids were built as tombs for the pharaohs, yet no royal burial has ever been found in one. This is not to mean just the "body" of the pharaohs are missing, but all the material funerary goods and even the artistic and written testament right off the walls as well. 

Emphasis mine. The missing body is the least of our worries. 

The Islamic accounts are nonsense. 

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6 hours ago, Megaro said:

... I recall some Islamic accounts of a body being found in the Great Pyramid, a warrior King perhaps, with splendid armor. ...

Al Kaisi, as quoted here; possibly the distorted memory of a real event or events.

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5 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

As I said before:

Regardless, we would note that all of these date to the mid 5th Dynasty and later which obviously is the precipice of cultural change which among other things the coming of Osiris with the first mention of him, along with several other "new gods", found in the tomb of Ptahshepses dated to the reign of Nyuserre Ini, brother possible successor of Neferefre. So if we do accept these are royal burials, which Neferefe and Djedkare Isesi I admit are interesting, the question is what changed? Regardless, it is still true at the least that prior to this period no royal burial has been found in any pyramid-"intact" or otherwise.  

 

There is a very good reason there are no remains of a burial found in the pyramids of the 4th dyn; there were bigger and better built than those of the 5th and sixth dynasty so they attracted more attention throughout history. No wonder they were picked clean. When stripped of their tura-limestone casing the 5th, 6th and MK pyramids became rubble heaps, the 4th dyn pyramids obviously did not because of their better built cores. Still we have indirect evidence for the burial of Menkaure, a coffin from the Saite period (mentioned before in this thread) was found in the pyramid, inscribed with the names of the king. This means the AE from the Saite period still found enough remains of the mummy of Menkaure to warrant a restoration burial. 

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5 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

No, there was no anything like it before Unas and yet for some reason some want to impose the PT on the pyramid builders that came before.

It's not imposing the PT on pre Unas pyramid builders, or on any tomb, it's pointing out that before Unas we do not see this "roadmap to eternity", so important to them at least from the first time that we can date it, therefore I am asking what elements to a burial pre Unas are the bare minimum must have items. Protective elements, emblems of statehood, scenes of daily life of the king, offerings and the like are not being discarded as they existed as your post shows, but these scenes are a long way from the "roadmap" of the PT, and I do not see them as crucial, only expressing a desire for continued life, only available for the king at that time,  If a king was buried pre Unas without, for instance, a serekh depicted somewhere in his tomb complex, would that prevent his ascension, I doubt it. Lack of a false door on the other hand would be a serious issue, and I did include the false door in my list of what I think are the crucial burial elements, and that is the thing, crucial, not the pomp and ceremony and bombast employed by any king, which while having meaning, is not crucial to their afterlife.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I see the Step Pyramid as a hybrid, an opinion that is not uncommon, so we see elements of the mastaba burial mixed with this new fangled pyramid. After Djoser we get something different, yes, we can root around in the substructures and see this and that are from what had gone before, and that is to be expected, but it's a different world to the mastaba due to what must have been a revolution in religious thought. It's possible that in the 4th Dynasty we see a type of puritanism, a devotion to this new thought that excludes a lot of the old mummery. But that;s just an idea.

Btw, when I "open the ways", it refers to me making a post that usually "opens the ways" back on topic, or if not, it is aimed specifically at cladking to try to help him move in the direction of fact and not stray off the ways into quagmire. I thought that was obvious, but hey ho, it's the interwebz and everything and anything with a little bit of humour is misconstrued and used as "attack points".

 

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11 hours ago, Trelane said:

Inscribed on the walls of the heat sink clearly visible on the gravimetric (et al) scan under the NE corner is all ancient knowledge and the means used to discover it along with numerous specimens and samples.

What is this nonsense purporting to refer to?. 

(I must clarify that the quote is from Cladking, not Trelane.). 

Edited by Jon101
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6 hours ago, Jon101 said:

What is this nonsense purporting to refer to?. 

(I must clarify that the quote is from Cladking, not Trelane.). 

This is one of the corner stones of "Cladking Science"

Densitogramand+copyright.jpg

Cladking fervently believes that this image shows that the NE Corner of the Great pyramid contains a 'something' that has all the knowledge of the world Madfet Lynx or something and that there is a passage to it which is the source of one of the two heat spots found on the Pyramid. He also has stated that he knows how to open this passage - but oddly refuses to go there and do it....

http://mockforums.net/thread-13088-post-474771.html#pid474771

Cladking quote

Quote

""I've now figured out how to "open this door".  Just to the left of center you can see two well defined vertical (red) lines with tendrils going to the right.  These lines define a small vertical opening where there is a stone shoved in to hide the latch.  The tendrils are copper embedded in this door which will slide to the right when the pin is removed.   It will then swing open. This path was called "Cool is the Crown Path" because in spring the air coming out ("crown" means front of a fluid flow) is extremely cold and would hit you like a brick on a hot day.

This comes from a real scientific study which you can find here: http://hdbui.blogspot.com/

Associated with the image above are the two images below which deal with looking for evidence for spiral ramps. Cladking has repurposed the first image to support his ideas.- whereas it does not.

MAShoBX.jpg

LRdtylA.jpg

 

These 'laws' might aid you in understanding Cladking: I = Cladking

 

2nd Law: In my opinion my opinions are fact.


3rd Law: I make up stuff that transforms into scientific fact 81.3 nano seconds after I state it.

4th Law: Personal belief is more important than mere evidence, my visceral gut feeling trump physical evidence.

5th Law: I have magical powers so if I say something doesn’t exist it ceases to exist and is wiped from this dimension

6th Law: Until you can prove otherwise this (whatever is being referenced) is the only theory that (I – Cladking) have predicted therefore this is most likely.

7th Law: If I (Cladking) said something in the past that was wrong or contradicts something I am saying now then I did not say it.

 

One can say many things about Cladking but he is a first class fustilarian, scobberlotcher and an intellectual mumblecrust

Edited by Hanslune
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On 5/17/2020 at 3:00 AM, Thanos5150 said:

Again, the explanation given for pyramids being empty of reliefs or decoration in their interiors, again a relatively "new" idea in that until reliefs were found in the BP valley temple in the 1950's it was thought the 4th Dynasty kings did not decorate their temples, is that they are meant to be found in the mortuary temple instead as mirrored in private tombs where the burial chamber is empty with the reliefs being found in the "chapel". As noted earlier in this thread, one of the reasons this obviously this would not apply as there are much in the interiors of pyramids that are not the burial chamber leaving no explanation for them being bare.

 

The interior / subterran part of the pyramid not accesible after the burial corresponds with the part of the mastaba that isn't accesible after the burial; shaft and tomb chamber. Yes there are more chambers and corridors in a pyramid but it is a royal tomb after all. Again, it is not unusual for passages and tomb chambers to be devoid of decoration in pyramids and mastabas alike before the end of the fifth dynasty.

 

On 5/17/2020 at 3:00 AM, Thanos5150 said:

As we can see in not only see contemporary private tombs, but royal and private tombs throughout Dynastic history, funerary dedication, i.e. relief and decoration, nothing could be more important.

 

An offering space dedicated to the deceased is indeed a mimimal requirement, relief and other decoration are usualy preferred but are not crucial. Often enough decoration is left unfinished when the tomb owner dies, however an offering space for the funerary cult of the deceased is indispensable. It can take many forms, before a stela, statue or false door; often these forms are combined. Near the end of Sneferu's reign until the end of Khufu's reign the lack of almost all decoration is a style on it's own, the so-called "reduced style". At it's height during Khufu's reign the only decorated piece in mastabas at Giza was a stela placed in the offering room, the so-called "slab stela".

 

On 5/17/2020 at 3:00 AM, Thanos5150 said:

This of course would be no different for the pharaoh which as Egyptologists tell us we would find this dedication in the mortuary temple. Here's the rub:

Medium: no mortuary temple. Unfinished "valley temple", a chapel, with no reliefs and two large blank stela.  

BP: a small chapel where later mortuary temples would come to be-no reliefs or decoration. Valley temple found with lavish reliefs and decoration. Which is odd because the BP is thought at the very least by most not to have been the tomb of Sneferu.    

RP: small "mortuary temple" of poor construction, perhaps unfinished. Though little remains a fragment was found showing Sneferu though whether or not it is from the temple or a stela is debatable. Valley temple not yet excavated with no evidence of a causeway leading to it. 

G1: all that remains of mortuary temple is black basalt pavement though some granite temple and limestone fragments were found. Numerous scrap/repurposed reliefs attributed to Khufu, presumed and definitive, found in and around the eastern cemetery, mostly the 7000 block, with some found as far away as Lisht. Unknown where they originally belonged though is likely much of it was part of the mortuary temple and/or causeway. Valley temple unexcavated. 

Abu Roash: no mortuary temple as yet found though an intesting possible candidate is in the area on the north side, a typical feature of the 3rd Dynasty, not the 4th who placed the temple on the east side. On the east, however, a curious mud brick structure is  found suggested by some to have been a hastily built mortuary temple though it differs significantly from any OK examples.This structure is worthy of further discussion but regardless, no reliefs.  

G2: Mortuary temple in reality two structures merged as one: the earlier megalithic phase made of massive blocks, and the later mortuary temple. No reliefs or evidence there ever was.

 G2 valley temple-no reliefs nor was there ever though many statues found in proximity which would ahve been installed in the VT. Sphinx temple-no reliefs. 

G3: again, mortuary temple constructed in phases-one megalithic and the rest not with the latter of very poor construction built largely by Menkaure's predecessor Shepseskaf. No reliefs or evidence there ever was. Valley temple of poor construction-completed in mud brick by Shepseskaf and built up again even later by likely Pepi I in the 6th Dynasty. No reliefs, though again many magnificent statues found associated with VT.  

Mastabat al-Fir'aun (Saqarra): attributed to Menkaure's successor Shepseskaf. Some Interior details similar to G3, but no reliefs. A small "mortuary temple" was found as part of complex which differed significantly from previous examples, but again no evidence of reliefs. No evidence of a valley temple. Evidence of attribution to Shepseskaf is scarce. 

Userkaf: lavishly decorated mortuary temple with reliefs of exceptional quality. 

Sahure: lavishly decorated mortuary temple-estimated over 100,000ft of reliefs and decoration-a wonder of the ancient world. 

 

The 4th dyn is a period of architectural and decorative experimentation, starting with Sneferu who introduced the true pyramid. Almost during each kings reign new elements are added to the royal complex.

Only at the start of the fifth dynasty standardisation of architecture and decoration of the royal mortuary complex takes place (under Sahure).

Meidum: a chapel with an offering table and two uninscribed stelae, ergo the complex was never used for burial. If the stelae were inscribed the minimal requirements would have been met. Causeway leads to harbour with remains unexplored valley structure.

Bent Pyramid: an offering table in a small single room structure flanked outside by two inscribed stelae / valley temple with statues and reliefs connected to the Sed-fest, replaced an earlier mud brick temple with garden, a mudbrick causeway leads from here to a harbour. Valley temple has also features later found in mortuary temples and is considered a combination of both.

Red Pyramid: The limestone remains found are now interpreted to belong to two statue shrines in

front of an enclosure wall. The mudbrick structures are now considered to come from the late old Kingdom, probably reign of Pepi I. No causeway, valley temple unexplored.

The two complexes BP and RP are considered to have functioned as "one".

G1: first real mortuary temple built against an enclosure wall with remains of a central statue shrine (imprint in pavement), fragments of relief decoration. Maybe causeway also decorated with reliefs. Unexplored valley structure.

Abu Rawash: The mortuary temple on the east side has sufferd a lot from stone robbers, only foundation blocks remain, even pavement slabs have been robbed. Granite collums inscribed with Djedefre's names and titles have been found in a nearby coptic monastery. Many stone fragments have been found wich testify of a rich statuary program. Relief with depiction of a lion has been found. Unexplored causeway and valley temple.

G2: no remains of reliefs in mortuary temple or valley temple but remains of an extensive statuary program. In the Valley temple Khafre's titles were inscribed on the granite doorframes. For first time the five basic elements of the "clasic" mortuary temple are present: entrance hall, open courtyard, five statue chapels, variuous storehouses and an offering hall, this concept was perfected in Sahure's mortuary temple. Maybe some limited relief decoration in the courtyard. Maybe a false door in back of temple against enclosure wall, not certain. Causeway probably decorated with reliefs, fragments found nearby.

G3: Fragments of statues found in mortuary temple, in the back in the centre against the enclosure wall stood a larger than life alabaster statue of Menkaure. Behind the temple inside the enclosure wall was (probly) a false door set against the side of the pyramid, in a later building phase this was incorporated into the temple by adding connecting walls,

Unfinished causeway in mud-brick. Fragments and intact statues found in the valley temple.

Shepseskaf: Only a small part of the mortuary temple finished in stone, an offering hall with a fals door flanked by 5 magazines, fragments of a royal statue. Causeway and valley temple never excavated.

Userkaf: much more effort invested in relief decoration, new themes are added; the building of the pyramid requires much less effort. His sun temple at Abusir had a statuary program, no traces of reliefs.

Sahure: His mortuary temple formed the template for all subsequent examples.

 

On 5/17/2020 at 3:00 AM, Thanos5150 said:

 

To recap-funerary dedication of a tomb was no doubt the the most important aspect of the DE belief in the afterlife which to have none is abhorrent not only to their religion but the archaeological context of the whole. Yet despite the fact we are told the reason the interiors of pyramids are bare is because the decoration was placed on the mortuary temples instead, we find a glaring gap and inconsistency in this theory in that nearly all of the pyramids prior to the 5th Dynasty had no dedications in their mortuary temples either.  Medium: none. BP: mortuary temple none-found instead at valley temple. RP: none. G1: mortuary temple is completely gone suggesting not built to same standard (time?) as G2 and G3, but it appears to almost certainly have had reliefs like those found at BP valley temple. G2: none. G3: none. Shepseskaf's mastaba, unlike other mastabas of the period: none. Userkaf and Sahure-amazing display of reliefs on a scale previously unknown in the ancient world of which as an aside there are several other curiosities as well like the introduction of previously unknown fully developed stone columns architecture.  

So prior to Userkaf, the 1st pharaoh of the 5th Dynasty, of the 5 great pyramids only the BP valley temple has reliefs with apparently the mortuary temple of G1 as well. This leaves Medium, the RP, G2 and G3 without the required funerary dedication leaving the question if not in these temples then where as they most certainly had to be somewhere? 

 

 

You seem to think that relief decoration is somehow a must and that if not present there is no “funerary dedication”. We find a statuary program instead (which works just as fine) or sometimes both were combined (probably with emphasis on one more than on the other). So as we can see one or the other is always present, nothing unusual going on. As an aside fully developped stone collumns are an inovation of Djedefre (besides sphinxes), his successors didn't pick this up untill the start of the 5th dyn. 

The AE expressed the same concept in different but interchangeable forms. Good examples are the maquettes from Meketra's tomb, these depict in 3D daily life activities we find on reliefs of the OK tombs.

Like I said before, it doesn't matter what form the offering space takes, it only matters it's there. All the rest is “extra topping”.

 

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Wow. 23 pages of discussion. Some good. Other just unprovable propaganda from "jesus was a magician" to other subjective "feelings". Example: shroud of turin. We were really loud when we thought it was fake. But since it has been validated 4 times to the time of jesus and the numerous forensics specialist who have gone on record stating that a man was beating and crucified, the pollens and dirt only found near the Damascus Gate, the blood type, the blood flows, things that would uphold in court, the fact that it contains 3D information. you dont hear much about the stuff that vindicates the shroud. And either way, the only known explanation for the formation of the image is an intense burst of vacuum ultraviolet radiation (equivalent to the output of 14,000 excimer lasers) emitted from every three-dimensional point of the body in the Shroud. Problem is, we dont have enough lasers on earth. That stuff doesnt make the headlines like the ones they printed when they thought it was fake. 

But I digress. You would think with the writings they have about the pyramids, there would be some mention of its purpose.  I read that the properties of all of the materials used in making the pyramids are conducive to electromagnetic energy along with the water flows locations at the time. and why does that one area have two copper "handles"? But most of the "reports" say things like "The ancient Egyptians probably didnt realize they just happen to put all of these things together to do this". When a reporters says "probably", you can flush it down the toilet. Thats conjecture and doesnt belong in real journalism. Which is the problem with our media today.

And you would think that since we have improved our own solar nanocepters because of our studies in the pyramids it would be bigger news but...must not be important since the ancient Egyptians PROBABLY didnt realize that they were accidentally putting all of these things together to do such things. . 

But im stupid & ignorant

 

Cheers.

 

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2 hours ago, Djedi said:

You seem to think that relief decoration is somehow a must and that if not present there is no “funerary dedication”. We find a statuary program instead (which works just as fine) or sometimes both were combined (probably with emphasis on one more than on the other). So as we can see one or the other is always present, nothing unusual going on. As an aside fully developped stone collumns are an inovation of Djedefre (besides sphinxes), his successors didn't pick this up untill the start of the 5th dyn. 

The AE expressed the same concept in different but interchangeable forms. Good examples are the maquettes from Meketra's tomb, these depict in 3D daily life activities we find on reliefs of the OK tombs.

Like I said before, it doesn't matter what form the offering space takes, it only matters it's there. All the rest is “extra topping”.

 

An aside. I remember reading that there was some speculation that the AE may have used wooden panels in the OK to decorate and sanctify tombs and mortuary temples. Perhaps it was Lehner? These of course were looted or disintegrated.

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4 hours ago, fux0r said:

Wow. 23 pages of discussion. Some good. Other just unprovable propaganda from "jesus was a magician" to other subjective "feelings". Example: shroud of turin. We were really loud when we thought it was fake. But since it has been validated 4 times to the time of jesus and the numerous forensics specialist who have gone on record stating that a man was beating and crucified, the pollens and dirt only found near the Damascus Gate, the blood type, the blood flows, things that would uphold in court, the fact that it contains 3D information. you dont hear much about the stuff that vindicates the shroud. And either way, the only known explanation for the formation of the image is an intense burst of vacuum ultraviolet radiation (equivalent to the output of 14,000 excimer lasers) emitted from every three-dimensional point of the body in the Shroud. Problem is, we dont have enough lasers on earth. That stuff doesnt make the headlines like the ones they printed when they thought it was fake. 

But I digress. You would think with the writings they have about the pyramids, there would be some mention of its purpose.  I read that the properties of all of the materials used in making the pyramids are conducive to electromagnetic energy along with the water flows locations at the time. and why does that one area have two copper "handles"? But most of the "reports" say things like "The ancient Egyptians probably didnt realize they just happen to put all of these things together to do this". When a reporters says "probably", you can flush it down the toilet. Thats conjecture and doesnt belong in real journalism. Which is the problem with our media today.

And you would think that since we have improved our own solar nanocepters because of our studies in the pyramids it would be bigger news but...must not be important since the ancient Egyptians PROBABLY didnt realize that they were accidentally putting all of these things together to do such things. . 

But im stupid & ignorant

 

Cheers.

 

Howdy FuxOr.

Welcome to the forum.

I didn't see anyone mentioning Jesus at all but then...there is an extremely limited piezo electric capacity in the granite but amounts to nothing but then there are entire mountain ranges made of granite and no power comes from.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/search/?q=magician

Not sure you want to bring up 'the pyramid is a power plant' idea in this thread.You might want to start your own thread on that or restart one of the numerous other ones on this common subject.

Some gentlemen by the names of Essam, Cormac, Swede, Harte and others may have something to say about this subject.

 

 

Edited by Hanslune
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13 hours ago, Jon101 said:

What is this nonsense purporting to refer to?. 

(I must clarify that the quote is from Cladking, not Trelane.). 

I was confused there for a moment. I don't recall having an aneurysm or black out drunk to where I would type that sort of nonsense. Whew!

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56 minutes ago, Trelane said:

I was confused there for a moment. I don't recall having an aneurysm or black out drunk to where I would type that sort of nonsense. Whew!

I would blame Harte his presence anywhere tends to call up  giddiness in some and loss of memory in most, and mild cases of death occasionally. .

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