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If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?


Thanos5150
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7 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

I don't understand what the point of you is. In general. You are the intellectual equivalent of stepping on a turd. 

 

On 5/25/2020 at 1:58 PM, M. Williams said:

Can you show some evidence those are males ?

I got you shook ,bruh. You and Hanslune know female cows have horns too, right ? It's ok not to know that.

Well, can you provide evidence ? Because, once again, worship of an animal as important as cattle COULD have developed seperate from Mesopotamia and the sex of the animal the horns are from SHOULD feature very heavily in any theory/hypothesis using them as evidence. And, seeing how the skulls are "models" (your word) which is one of the main ways sexing of cattle is done how are you so sure those are males ?

I also think Mesopotamia influenced Egyptian archtecture and art in some ways as im sure do some if not all egyptologists. . Its kind of a 'no ****, sherlock' kinda statement. 

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6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Aelian lived in 170 AD -- 3,000 years after Menes.  Our own (modern) info about events in 1,000 BC (3,000 years ago) is pretty sketchy.  I don't think he should be considered as reliable as Egyptian information and documentation.

Yet, his account exists and should be taken into consideration when discussing a palette with what may be the first representaion of an Apis bull, right ? 

 

If Aelian claims Narmer started the Apis Cult  it builds on the argument those are bulls up top . Im not as emotional about this one as thanos. Im interested in the accuracy of claims that bull bones were placed in sarcophagi in pyramids. Hathor is more associated with death and rebirth than Apis and sloppily saying they're all bulls is lazy. It seems they coexisted in time as later represented by their shared sundisk iconography and apis name 'son of Hathor' . 

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

At the Hall of Ma'at an interesting post about something I had not heard of before.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,627850,627853#msg-627853

 

4k8nTf.jpg

I asked where this might exactly be - but I though some of smart people here might know also. Thanos, Djedi or Wep do you guys mention it before?

I mentioned in general somewhere in this thread fragments of G1's causeway/MT reliefs were found around the east field mastabas and at Lischt,The Hassan reference in your link is HERE. P20-23. He is referring to fragments found at the upper end of the causeway. He says of this and other associated fragments:

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It appears as though this scene had some connection with the Pyramid. In point of style it differs from the other blocks which we found; the relief is much lower, and the signs are attenuated. It has been suggested that this block is not from the time of Khufu, but is a relic of a Saitic restoration, made when the cult of the pyramid builders received a new impetus under the Twenty-sixth Dynasty. This may be so, but we have to remember also that in most of the royal monuments of the Old Kingdom, the style of work is not uniform.

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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4 hours ago, M. Williams said:

Yet, his account exists and should be taken into consideration when discussing a palette with what may be the first representaion of an Apis bull, right ? 

Maybe.

First, he's not an Egyptian.  Second, he's relying on material from others... material that may not have been properly translated.  We can't know.  He'd be considered (at best) a secondary source, though more likely a tertiary source or later.

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If Aelian claims Narmer started the Apis Cult  it builds on the argument those are bulls up top . Im not as emotional about this one as thanos. Im interested in the accuracy of claims that bull bones were placed in sarcophagi in pyramids. Hathor is more associated with death and rebirth than Apis and sloppily saying they're all bulls is lazy. It seems they coexisted in time as later represented by their shared sundisk iconography and apis name 'son of Hathor' . 

Bull bones were found in the sarcophagus in the GP... not an original burial and not in any other pyramid.  More likely someone's picnic.

Hathor isn't associated with death... or rebirth (the idea of the afterlife changed down the millennia.)  

It's a mistake to lump all of Egypt and all the gods together as though they occurred in one 300 year period inside one country.  Sometimes Egypt was five or six quarreling countries, nome gods were promoted to national gods and then absorbed or demoted... it's very complex.

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Bull bones were found in the sarcophagus in the GP... not an original burial and not in any other pyramid.  More likely someone's picnic.

IIRC, weren't those found in the sarcophagus of G2?

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11 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Agreed.  Cattle were an important symbol to the predynastic people and it makes sense that they would center a deity around cattle or that a deity would have a bovine form.

A divurgence again, but I like closing things off, or at least reasonably so. The earliest known remains of domesticated cattle in Egypt come from the Fayum in the 5th millenium BC. These cattle were shown in a DNA study from 2014, which I've lost track of, that they had origins in Mesopotamia. A more recent study backs this up, but also announced a third area of domestication for cattle, outside of Mesopotamia and the Indus, being the Egyptian Western desert. This is a surprise, but it does show a very long relationship between the Egyptians and cattle. There was a horn core found near Nabta Playa dated back to the 6th or 7th millenium, but it's thought to have been from a wild bovine and used as an offering.

The 2018 study Domestication of cattle

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7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

At the Hall of Ma'at an interesting post about something I had not heard of before.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,627850,627853#msg-627853

 

4k8nTf.jpg

I asked where this might exactly be - but I though some of smart people here might know also. Thanos, Djedi or Wep do you guys mention it before?

To add to this, Romer, on page 415 of his Great Pyramid, mentions, and I'll quote,

Quote

A limestone block bearing Khufu's names, and the broken phrase 'building the sanctuaries of the gods'. Recovered from the interior of a later pyramid where it had been re-employed as building stone, the block appears to come from one of Khufu's Giza temples, and may be dated, by following the construction timetable established for Khufu's monuments upon the Giza Plateau, to that period of his reign after his pyramid was finished, that is, after 2476 BC. Another broken phrase upon this stone, 'in the [horizon of] Khufu'. records one of the first-known occurrences of the ancient name of the Great Pyramid itself.

Romer only reproduces that part of the block with the name Khufu and about building temples.

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13 hours ago, Kenemet said:

And I don't see how you can support the last two statements about her being reincarnated (she herself did not believe this) and change in consciousness since her influence was Egypt only and there's a lot of the world that she never touched.

I don’t think that she didn’t know about reincarnation given the great knowledge of the Egyptians in religion, and it doesn’t matter whether the person believes in it or not we are on earth and even materialists incarnate here means there is something higher than individual will. Hatshepsut herself was embodied many times on earth in Europe and even once saved France.

Spoiler

f969b4b1d0f0b10d2998a8f3b006ad58--st-joan-of-arc-john-everett-millais.jpg.405d9790ba2b32f80ac33b508745fabd.jpgJoanofarc.jpg.747a51c64c167dc5dbc6aada25dbeb3f.jpg

 

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The AE did not believe in the resurrection of the physical body, nor in reincarnation, excepting, by stretching the meaning of the word, for the transference of the ba of a god from it's sacred animal on death to a new body, for instance, the Apis bull and the falcon at Nekhen/Edfu. In neither case can this transference of the ba be seen as a reincarnation in the sense that we use it, as while the animal housing the ba of the god has died, it does not reincarnate as it's soul was only ever that of a god, who are immortal until all are "reintegrated" back into Nun at the end of time.

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The ancient Egyptians believed that the soul consists of several parts and it is possessed not only by humans, but also by animals and gods.

The ancient Egyptians believed that a person consists of a physical body, a spiritual body, a heart, a double, a soul, an immaterial etheric spirit, image and name.

The Egyptians were the first to express the doctrine that the human soul is immortal, that with the destruction of the body it occupies another animal, which is born at the same time; having bypassed all animals, terrestrial, marine and feathered, the soul is re-established in the nascent human body.

Ba form a world of a different soul and a world of dreams. Moreover, it was the deceased’s Ba that possessed the ability to move to other bodies, to transfer to another material entity.

The "Book of the Dead" refers to the introduction of Ba who died in the divine golden hawk, into the Phoenix bird, into the crane, the swallow, the ram, the crocodile, and the snake.

 

Boys, no matter what they are straightforward, like Indians, did not talk about reincarnation again in the human body, it is important that we all come to earth to develop and will come again because an ordinary person needs to constantly incarnate to develop because this is a place to work and in heaven bliss between incarnations.

 

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37 minutes ago, Coil said:

Boys, no matter what they are straightforward, like Indians, did not talk about reincarnation again in the human body, it is important that we all come to earth to develop and will come again because an ordinary person needs to constantly incarnate to develop because this is a place to work and in heaven bliss between incarnations.

 

Can you provide a reference for your quote, which seriously garbles what they actually believed. I'm particulalry interested in the part saying "the human soul is immortal", as it is not because if you did not pass judgement your soul was devoured by Ammit, this being the "second death", and was final. Also, if the body was destroyed the soul did not "jump" to another animal, human or otherwise. There was a "rescue service" run by Horus to save the souls of those who by accident had no body to be buried, those drowned and carried off by the Nile, or eaten by crocodiles, but the soul was not transfered to a new body, it existed only in the Duat in what we may see as a type of purgatory, though the light of the Sun God in the Duat shines on them and speaks to them.

But, this is offtopic again and the discussion should return to the OP. Reincarnation belongs in the religious sections of the forum.

Edited by Wepwawet
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1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

Can you provide a reference for your quote, which seriously garbles what they actually believed. I'm particulalry interested in the part saying "the human soul is immortal", as it is not because if you did not pass judgement your soul was devoured by Ammit, this being the "second death", and was final.

Egyptian religious doctrines included three afterlife ideologies; belief in an underworld, eternal life, and rebirth of the soul.
The Egyptian concept of 'eternal life' was often seen as being reborn indefinitely. Therefore, the souls who had lived their life elegantly were guided to Osiris to be born again. Ultimately, the immortality desired by ancient Egyptians was reflected in endless lives. By doing worthy deeds in their current life, they would be granted a second life for all of eternity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_afterlife_beliefs

The Akh was the immortal, transformed, self which was a magical union of the ba and ka. Strudwick writes, "once the akh had been created by this union, it survived as an 'enlightened spirit,' enduring and unchanged for eternity" (178). Akh is usually translated as 'spirit' and was the higher form of the soul. Spell 474 of the Pyramid Texts states, "the akh belongs to heaven, the corpse to earth," and it was the akh which would enjoy eternity among the stars with the gods.

https://www.ancient.eu/article/1023/the-soul-in-ancient-egypt/

image.png.73497b63b30273dd34dc18885df5c500.png

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=LYYuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Egyptians+immortal+Herodotus&source=bl&ots=bCIkHb2Vfw&sig=ACfU3U3Nsn6D21fXNIk9wz47ujBTWDeo_A&hl=uk&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52fOY-tPpAhX78KYKHXCRDcoQ6AEwAnoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Egyptians immortal Herodotus&f=false

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The constant rebirth is not a physical rebirth, it is the resurrection of the Sun God when he temporarily unites with Osiris, and by doing so allows a rebirth not just of the Sun, but of all the dead, but not to live in the mortal world again, only a continued existance in the afterlife.

You are trying to say that they had reincarnation in the sense of a soul inhabiting a physical body when it's original one had died. They did not believe this, and Herodutus is wrong. You even make a quote from PT spell 474 that confounds the idea of a physical rebirth. "The akh belongs to heaven, the corpse to earth".

Reading the wiki article was a shock, for the section on rebirth is total politically correct garbage about modern feminist gender identity, and some of it is total fantasy referenced from a work about trying to tie what is found in the Book of the Dead to the bible and "nude being approaching the goddess" What the heck....

When an Egyptian text talks about uniting limbs and driving away fluids of decay, it does not refer to their actual body being made whole again for re-use, they knew full well that the dead never ever got out of their coffins and walked again.

You put in a link that throws up popups about adblock, and I will not read them.

Edit: As a general point, this has thrown a spotlight on some serious abuse of wiki, not for the first time of course, and shows that it cannot be relied upon as a source. Why would anybody want to hijack a wiki artile on AE afterlife believes for political reasons is beyond me, but then, whoever did this knows that for most people, wiki, and the internet in general, is their only source.

Edited by Wepwawet
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3 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Reading the wiki article was a shock, for the section on rebirth is total politically correct garbage about modern feminist gender identity, and some of it is total fantasy referenced from a work about trying to tie what is found in the Book of the Dead to the bible and "nude being approaching the goddess" What the heck....

Edit: As a general point, this has thrown a spotlight on some serious abuse of wiki, not for the first time of course, and shows that it cannot be relied upon as a source. Why would anybody want to hijack a wiki artile on AE afterlife believes for political reasons is beyond me, but then, whoever did this knows that for most people, wiki, and the internet in general, is their only source.

Lol. Cooney is a piece of work. 

Look again.

I do not have the interest to outright remove it or edit the text, give counterarguments, check for accuracy and whatnot as whoever wrote it is likely monitoring it and would start an edit war. I have given it its own section to make it at least "relevant" to the article and noted Cooney by name as its source .  

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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3 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

The constant rebirth is not a physical rebirth, it is the resurrection of the Sun God when he temporarily unites with Osiris, and by doing so allows a rebirth not just of the Sun, but of all the dead, but not to live in the mortal world again, only a continued existance in the afterlife.

So you will never be born again?
The fact that a person no longer incarnates on earth is the idea of Christianity that the spirit goes to heaven (and remains there until Judgment Day)

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37 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Lol. Cooney is a piece of work. 

Look again.

I do not have the interest to outright remove it or edit the text, give counterarguments, check for accuracy and whatnot as whoever wrote it is likely monitoring it and would start an edit war. I have given it its own section to make it at least "relevant" to the article and noted Cooney by name as its source .  

 

Good, that saves me trying to ask Luca who edits Amarna related pages.

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41 minutes ago, Coil said:

So you will never be born again?
The fact that a person no longer incarnates on earth is the idea of Christianity that the spirit goes to heaven (and remains there until Judgment Day)

That depends on your own beliefs. My own opinion is that in part the Christian belief as to what happens after death is not far removed from the AE one when it is stripped down to it's basics, and with the important difference that for the AE judgement came at the beginning, not the end. When the soul is at the end of it's journey it simply basks in the proximity of God for Christians and the Gods in the heavens for Egyptians. Akhenaten's inovation was perhaps even closer to the Christian concept in that the ba of the deceased spent all day at an Aten temple basking in the rays of the Aten. To me, this seems like some sort of hell though, and the Egyptians thought so to. It's all just what we want to believe, allthough when discussing a long dead religion, we have to go by the evidence of their beliefs they have left behind, and in the case of the type of reincarnation you describe, they left no evidence at all, therefore, with what evidence they have left behind of their beliefs, it can be concluded that they had no reincarnation of the soul from one physical body to another, only constant renewal of what constituted their complicated soul.

Edited by Wepwawet
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5 hours ago, Coil said:

Egyptian religious doctrines included three afterlife ideologies; belief in an underworld, eternal life, and rebirth of the soul.
The Egyptian concept of 'eternal life' was often seen as being reborn indefinitely. Therefore, the souls who had lived their life elegantly were guided to Osiris to be born again. Ultimately, the immortality desired by ancient Egyptians was reflected in endless lives. By doing worthy deeds in their current life, they would be granted a second life for all of eternity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_afterlife_beliefs

It's been re-edited and that text is no longer there. In any case, the rebirth was "awakening in the afterlife" as an adult.  And "elegantly" is wrong. An (one) endless life, yes.  Multiples, no.

Quote

Non-Egyptian Roman authors who are writing in the Hellenic period about things that they've been told or read somewhere else.  The original hieroglyphic texts (written BY Egyptians) say that they awaken in the afterlife (hence the ceremonies of opening the mouth and opening the eyes) and not that they get reborn as other things or people.  The deceased act as advisors to the living.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

It's been re-edited and that text is no longer there. In any case, the rebirth was "awakening in the afterlife" as an adult.  And "elegantly" is wrong. An (one) endless life, yes.  Multiples, no.

Non-Egyptian Roman authors who are writing in the Hellenic period about things that they've been told or read somewhere else.  The original hieroglyphic texts (written BY Egyptians) say that they awaken in the afterlife (hence the ceremonies of opening the mouth and opening the eyes) and not that they get reborn as other things or people.  The deceased act as advisors to the living.

 

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with great pyramids, what they were for, or where the dead kings are.  You are talking about the beliefs of the authors of the "book of the dead" and not the Pyramid Texts.  

It's this intermingling of later beliefs that has apparently obscured the all the questions related to the great pyramids.  

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Ok, I understood,you do not believe that in Egypt knew about reincarnation.

 

The Egyptians believed that the young scarab emerged spontaneously from the burrow as if created from nothing. Thus, like Atum, the scarab god Khepri was a self-created god.The scarab beetle also lays its eggs in carrion, leading the ancient Egyptians to speculate that those scarab beetles were created from dead matter. As a result, Khepri was strongly associated with rebirth, renewal, and resurrection. Khepri is the Egytian Scarab beetle god of rebirth and the morning sun.

https://ancientegypt.fandom.com/wiki/Rebirth


The scarab beetle was the most important amulet worn by ancient Egyptians. It was symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/egypt/animals.htm

 A scarab amulet provided the wearer with protection and confidence in the certain knowledge of reincarnation.

https://www.gemrockauctions.com/learn/did-you-know/what-is-the-meaning-of-scarab

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52 minutes ago, cladking said:

This has nothing whatsoever to do with great pyramids, what they were for, or where the dead kings are.

And can you tell what was the main purpose of the pyramids?

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55 minutes ago, Coil said:

Ok, I understood,you do not believe that in Egypt knew about reincarnation.

 

The Egyptians believed that the young scarab emerged spontaneously from the burrow as if created from nothing. Thus, like Atum, the scarab god Khepri was a self-created god.The scarab beetle also lays its eggs in carrion, leading the ancient Egyptians to speculate that those scarab beetles were created from dead matter. As a result, Khepri was strongly associated with rebirth, renewal, and resurrection. Khepri is the Egytian Scarab beetle god of rebirth and the morning sun.

https://ancientegypt.fandom.com/wiki/Rebirth


The scarab beetle was the most important amulet worn by ancient Egyptians. It was symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/egypt/animals.htm

 A scarab amulet provided the wearer with protection and confidence in the certain knowledge of reincarnation.

https://www.gemrockauctions.com/learn/did-you-know/what-is-the-meaning-of-scarab

Well yes, Khepri is part of the rebirth of the Sun, but he is also the Sun God and is pushing himself over the eastern horizon. The images of the scarab beetle are probably the single most important metaphor in their theology, but really the idea of a beetle should be discarded when looking at the deeper meaning. In the Sixth Hour of the Amduat, Khepri is shown with Flesh/Ra, both are dead and the text states this is Khepri with his own flesh/corpse. Khepri IS Ra, though dissasociated from Ra in the Duat, he represents what he will be at dawn. The Amduat has a lot of little scenes that presage the coming dawn, almost like a wish fulfillment that if they present it as so, then it will come about, the same impulse that creates all the funerary texts and images. The "death" of Ra, Atum, at dusk can be seen as the temporary dissolution of a whole into it's constituent parts, and then some, as Ra is the ba of Osiris and Osiris is the dead body of Ra, so the fusion of Flesh/Ra with Osiris is the reuniting of the ba with it's body, and this is echoed in the belief that the ba must be able to rejoin with it's corpse in the tomb, hence serious issues if the corpse is destroyed, or if it has nothing to name it.

So while Khepri is an image of rebirth, it is an image of the rebirth of the Sun God, made possible by the process of resurrection involving Osiris, and this resurrection, while at the beginning only applicable to Ra and the king, came to represent the continuing resurrection of the soul of all the dead. It's not stretching it too much to say that a piece of jewelry with Khepri is saying, "Lord, let me rise tomorrow still alive, and when I do die, let my soul be reborn every day for eternity"

Edited by Wepwawet
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1 hour ago, Coil said:

And can you tell what was the main purpose of the pyramids?

The builders said over and over again consistently and repeatedly that the king is the pyramid.   How you interpret this is everything.   

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2 hours ago, cladking said:

It's this intermingling of later beliefs that has apparently obscured the all the questions related to the great pyramids.  

The builders said over and over again consistently and repeatedly that the king is the pyramid.

...and after 15 years we are still waiting for you to write this all up with all your 'evidence' instead of simply stating your opinion as fact

That is what your belief  is. I'm not aware of any one else who follows your particular delusion.

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