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Thanos5150

If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

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Wepwawet
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Though it might be a reference to a proto-image/title "strong bull of his mother."

That's highly likely, same as the sistrum inference, and there are also probable references to the either the 7th or 8th nomes of Lower Egypt, the West and East Harpoon nomes, and to posibly the 3rd Lower nome, West, as it is the only one except Sopdu that has a falcon emblem. I still maintain that none of the standards are for nomes though. I stepped outside my box to look at the palette from a different angle....

Edited by Wepwawet
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Wepwawet
50 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Aelian lived in 170 AD -- 3,000 years after Menes.  Our own (modern) info about events in 1,000 BC (3,000 years ago) is pretty sketchy.  I don't think he should be considered as reliable as Egyptian information and documentation.

Just to make the original quote by me clearer, what I meant by saying that Apis was around but not yet a god, was that he is known from the 1st Dynasty, but does not become a god until the 2nd. I would think that he dates back into pre-dynastic times just like a number of other gods.

Edited by Wepwawet
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Kenemet
57 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Just to make the original quote by me clearer, what I meant by saying that Apis was around but not yet a god, was that he is known from the 1st Dynasty, but does not become a god until the 2nd. I would think that he dates back into pre-dynastic times just like a number of other gods.

Agreed.  Cattle were an important symbol to the predynastic people and it makes sense that they would center a deity around cattle or that a deity would have a bovine form.

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Trelane
16 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Trelane

Not since I admitted what Clad( especially Cladie), Sesh and I did with them several pages back.:whistle:

jmccr8

Yeah I figured as much, just checking though ;). Just wanted to sway things back on course. Not that the back and forth hasn't been informative. It just does nothing to speak towards the OP (as far as I could discern).

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Hanslune

At the Hall of Ma'at an interesting post about something I had not heard of before.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,627850,627853#msg-627853

 

Quote

Hermione Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm reliably informed that the name Akhet Khufu
> appears on a block from the southern causeway at
> Giza, and is discussed in Hassan (1960), Giza X:
> 23 (reader 32). 2. It A photograph of the block
> can be found on Plate VI B (Reader 163).
>
>

 

4k8nTf.jpg

I asked where this might exactly be - but I though some of smart people here might know also. Thanos, Djedi or Wep do you guys mention it before?

Edited by Hanslune

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M. Williams
7 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

I don't understand what the point of you is. In general. You are the intellectual equivalent of stepping on a turd. 

 

On 5/25/2020 at 1:58 PM, M. Williams said:

Can you show some evidence those are males ?

I got you shook ,bruh. You and Hanslune know female cows have horns too, right ? It's ok not to know that.

Well, can you provide evidence ? Because, once again, worship of an animal as important as cattle COULD have developed seperate from Mesopotamia and the sex of the animal the horns are from SHOULD feature very heavily in any theory/hypothesis using them as evidence. And, seeing how the skulls are "models" (your word) which is one of the main ways sexing of cattle is done how are you so sure those are males ?

I also think Mesopotamia influenced Egyptian archtecture and art in some ways as im sure do some if not all egyptologists. . Its kind of a 'no ****, sherlock' kinda statement. 

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M. Williams
6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Aelian lived in 170 AD -- 3,000 years after Menes.  Our own (modern) info about events in 1,000 BC (3,000 years ago) is pretty sketchy.  I don't think he should be considered as reliable as Egyptian information and documentation.

Yet, his account exists and should be taken into consideration when discussing a palette with what may be the first representaion of an Apis bull, right ? 

 

If Aelian claims Narmer started the Apis Cult  it builds on the argument those are bulls up top . Im not as emotional about this one as thanos. Im interested in the accuracy of claims that bull bones were placed in sarcophagi in pyramids. Hathor is more associated with death and rebirth than Apis and sloppily saying they're all bulls is lazy. It seems they coexisted in time as later represented by their shared sundisk iconography and apis name 'son of Hathor' . 

Edited by M. Williams

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Thanos5150
1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

At the Hall of Ma'at an interesting post about something I had not heard of before.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,627850,627853#msg-627853

 

4k8nTf.jpg

I asked where this might exactly be - but I though some of smart people here might know also. Thanos, Djedi or Wep do you guys mention it before?

I mentioned in general somewhere in this thread fragments of G1's causeway/MT reliefs were found around the east field mastabas and at Lischt,The Hassan reference in your link is HERE. P20-23. He is referring to fragments found at the upper end of the causeway. He says of this and other associated fragments:

Quote

It appears as though this scene had some connection with the Pyramid. In point of style it differs from the other blocks which we found; the relief is much lower, and the signs are attenuated. It has been suggested that this block is not from the time of Khufu, but is a relic of a Saitic restoration, made when the cult of the pyramid builders received a new impetus under the Twenty-sixth Dynasty. This may be so, but we have to remember also that in most of the royal monuments of the Old Kingdom, the style of work is not uniform.

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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Kenemet
4 hours ago, M. Williams said:

Yet, his account exists and should be taken into consideration when discussing a palette with what may be the first representaion of an Apis bull, right ? 

Maybe.

First, he's not an Egyptian.  Second, he's relying on material from others... material that may not have been properly translated.  We can't know.  He'd be considered (at best) a secondary source, though more likely a tertiary source or later.

Quote

If Aelian claims Narmer started the Apis Cult  it builds on the argument those are bulls up top . Im not as emotional about this one as thanos. Im interested in the accuracy of claims that bull bones were placed in sarcophagi in pyramids. Hathor is more associated with death and rebirth than Apis and sloppily saying they're all bulls is lazy. It seems they coexisted in time as later represented by their shared sundisk iconography and apis name 'son of Hathor' . 

Bull bones were found in the sarcophagus in the GP... not an original burial and not in any other pyramid.  More likely someone's picnic.

Hathor isn't associated with death... or rebirth (the idea of the afterlife changed down the millennia.)  

It's a mistake to lump all of Egypt and all the gods together as though they occurred in one 300 year period inside one country.  Sometimes Egypt was five or six quarreling countries, nome gods were promoted to national gods and then absorbed or demoted... it's very complex.

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Djedi
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Bull bones were found in the sarcophagus in the GP... not an original burial and not in any other pyramid.  More likely someone's picnic.

IIRC, weren't those found in the sarcophagus of G2?

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Wepwawet
11 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Agreed.  Cattle were an important symbol to the predynastic people and it makes sense that they would center a deity around cattle or that a deity would have a bovine form.

A divurgence again, but I like closing things off, or at least reasonably so. The earliest known remains of domesticated cattle in Egypt come from the Fayum in the 5th millenium BC. These cattle were shown in a DNA study from 2014, which I've lost track of, that they had origins in Mesopotamia. A more recent study backs this up, but also announced a third area of domestication for cattle, outside of Mesopotamia and the Indus, being the Egyptian Western desert. This is a surprise, but it does show a very long relationship between the Egyptians and cattle. There was a horn core found near Nabta Playa dated back to the 6th or 7th millenium, but it's thought to have been from a wild bovine and used as an offering.

The 2018 study Domestication of cattle

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Wepwawet
7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

At the Hall of Ma'at an interesting post about something I had not heard of before.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,627850,627853#msg-627853

 

4k8nTf.jpg

I asked where this might exactly be - but I though some of smart people here might know also. Thanos, Djedi or Wep do you guys mention it before?

To add to this, Romer, on page 415 of his Great Pyramid, mentions, and I'll quote,

Quote

A limestone block bearing Khufu's names, and the broken phrase 'building the sanctuaries of the gods'. Recovered from the interior of a later pyramid where it had been re-employed as building stone, the block appears to come from one of Khufu's Giza temples, and may be dated, by following the construction timetable established for Khufu's monuments upon the Giza Plateau, to that period of his reign after his pyramid was finished, that is, after 2476 BC. Another broken phrase upon this stone, 'in the [horizon of] Khufu'. records one of the first-known occurrences of the ancient name of the Great Pyramid itself.

Romer only reproduces that part of the block with the name Khufu and about building temples.

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Coil
13 hours ago, Kenemet said:

And I don't see how you can support the last two statements about her being reincarnated (she herself did not believe this) and change in consciousness since her influence was Egypt only and there's a lot of the world that she never touched.

I don’t think that she didn’t know about reincarnation given the great knowledge of the Egyptians in religion, and it doesn’t matter whether the person believes in it or not we are on earth and even materialists incarnate here means there is something higher than individual will. Hatshepsut herself was embodied many times on earth in Europe and even once saved France.

Spoiler

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Wepwawet

The AE did not believe in the resurrection of the physical body, nor in reincarnation, excepting, by stretching the meaning of the word, for the transference of the ba of a god from it's sacred animal on death to a new body, for instance, the Apis bull and the falcon at Nekhen/Edfu. In neither case can this transference of the ba be seen as a reincarnation in the sense that we use it, as while the animal housing the ba of the god has died, it does not reincarnate as it's soul was only ever that of a god, who are immortal until all are "reintegrated" back into Nun at the end of time.

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Coil
Quote

 

The ancient Egyptians believed that the soul consists of several parts and it is possessed not only by humans, but also by animals and gods.

The ancient Egyptians believed that a person consists of a physical body, a spiritual body, a heart, a double, a soul, an immaterial etheric spirit, image and name.

The Egyptians were the first to express the doctrine that the human soul is immortal, that with the destruction of the body it occupies another animal, which is born at the same time; having bypassed all animals, terrestrial, marine and feathered, the soul is re-established in the nascent human body.

Ba form a world of a different soul and a world of dreams. Moreover, it was the deceased’s Ba that possessed the ability to move to other bodies, to transfer to another material entity.

The "Book of the Dead" refers to the introduction of Ba who died in the divine golden hawk, into the Phoenix bird, into the crane, the swallow, the ram, the crocodile, and the snake.

 

Boys, no matter what they are straightforward, like Indians, did not talk about reincarnation again in the human body, it is important that we all come to earth to develop and will come again because an ordinary person needs to constantly incarnate to develop because this is a place to work and in heaven bliss between incarnations.

 

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Wepwawet
37 minutes ago, Coil said:

Boys, no matter what they are straightforward, like Indians, did not talk about reincarnation again in the human body, it is important that we all come to earth to develop and will come again because an ordinary person needs to constantly incarnate to develop because this is a place to work and in heaven bliss between incarnations.

 

Can you provide a reference for your quote, which seriously garbles what they actually believed. I'm particulalry interested in the part saying "the human soul is immortal", as it is not because if you did not pass judgement your soul was devoured by Ammit, this being the "second death", and was final. Also, if the body was destroyed the soul did not "jump" to another animal, human or otherwise. There was a "rescue service" run by Horus to save the souls of those who by accident had no body to be buried, those drowned and carried off by the Nile, or eaten by crocodiles, but the soul was not transfered to a new body, it existed only in the Duat in what we may see as a type of purgatory, though the light of the Sun God in the Duat shines on them and speaks to them.

But, this is offtopic again and the discussion should return to the OP. Reincarnation belongs in the religious sections of the forum.

Edited by Wepwawet

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