If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Coil said:

And can you tell what was the main purpose of the pyramids?

Ah, Coil Cladking is a well known fringe pop-in-jay, he shows up expresses his opinions then runs off. You can engage him and he'll go on for hundreds (literally) pages saying the same thing over and over again and never provide any evidence - except his opinion. Oh, his main claim is that he and he alone knows how to correctly translate the Pyramid Text....unfortunately he cannot read the language.......lol

[Kenemet]

8 hours ago, cladking said:

This has nothing whatsoever to do with great pyramids, what they were for, or where the dead kings are.  You are talking about the beliefs of the authors of the "book of the dead" and not the Pyramid Texts.  

It's this intermingling of later beliefs that has apparently obscured the all the questions related to the great pyramids.  

The point we were debating was NOT about the pyramids or pyramid texts -- so your comment here is not on track. 

Not everything in ancient Egypt is about pyramids.

[M. Williams]

20 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Maybe.

First, he's not an Egyptian.  Second, he's relying on material from others... material that may not have been properly translated.  We can't know.  He'd be considered (at best) a secondary source, though more likely a tertiary source or later.

Bull bones were found in the sarcophagus in the GP... not an original burial and not in any other pyramid.  More likely someone's picnic.

Hathor isn't associated with death... or rebirth (the idea of the afterlife changed down the millennia.)  

It's a mistake to lump all of Egypt and all the gods together as though they occurred in one 300 year period inside one country.  Sometimes Egypt was five or six quarreling countries, nome gods were promoted to national gods and then absorbed or demoted... it's very complex.

 I didn't "...lump all of Egypt and all the gods together as though they occurred in one 300 year period inside one country."  

 

What I did was suggest that Bat, the goddess most likely on the top of the palette and whose name means 'female spirit' or 'female power', would have a 'male spirit' to match and perhaps the bull at the bottom of the palette was the first representation of that concept or the Apis. I then backed it up with Aerelians claim the cult started under Narmer and allowed the reader to make up their own minds.

 

As for Hathor ,uh,'Mistress of The West' not being associated with death and rebirth I'll quote Wilkinson , Gods and Goddesses, 

"In the Pyramid Texts Hathor assists the king in this role as 'Eye', however (PT 705) - preserving him by enabling his daily REBIRTH with the sun." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by M. Williams

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, Coil said:

Ok, I understood,you do not believe that in Egypt knew about reincarnation.

The Egyptians believed that the young scarab emerged spontaneously from the burrow as if created from nothing. Thus, like Atum, the scarab god Khepri was a self-created god.The scarab beetle also lays its eggs in carrion, leading the ancient Egyptians to speculate that those scarab beetles were created from dead matter. As a result, Khepri was strongly associated with rebirth, renewal, and resurrection. Khepri is the Egytian Scarab beetle god of rebirth and the morning sun.

https://ancientegypt.fandom.com/wiki/Rebirth

You need to separate out the regional gods from the national gods.  Kephri was not a national god (as far as can be told) until around the New Kingdom -- and he seems to come from the Heliopolian cosmogneny. 

Quote

The scarab beetle was the most important amulet worn by ancient Egyptians. It was symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

.That's debatable and not a good analogy.  Important texts were inscribed on scarabs (in part because their shape made it convenient) but marking it as more important than the Eye of Horus, or the Tjet knot of Isis or the ankh (or images of felines, which were exchanged at the New year) is not correct.  When we find groups of amulets, the scarab is not the most commonly found one.

Quote

 A scarab amulet provided the wearer with protection and confidence in the certain knowledge of reincarnation.

https://www.gemrockauctions.com/learn/did-you-know/what-is-the-meaning-of-scarab

While that's a very charming page, there's a number of things on it that are wrong (dung beetles, for instance, don't use the dung ball as their own food), and the statement about reincarnation is wrong.

[M. Williams]

On 5/25/2020 at 7:59 AM, Wepwawet said:

Your'e right, and it's not a nitpick, it's a silly unforced error by me. I don't even know why I for one second put Hathor in Lower Egypt. I think there's some name for how this error is made when one person makes an error, then a second gets it in their head and compounds it. Either way, at least the main point that there was no known fighting during the unification of Egypt still stands.

The " no known fighting during the unification of Egypt still stands" part is wrong. Or do you disagree with Dreyer ? 28:00-34:00

 

[Wepwawet]

15 minutes ago, M. Williams said:

The " no known fighting during the unification of Egypt still stands" part is wrong. Or do you disagree with Dreyer ? 28:00-34:00

 

That is his opinion, my opinion differs, and will continue to do so until conclusive evidence for fighting is presented. But what is your opinion, you don't seem to be very forthcoming in any of your posts about what you think about anything, and seem content to sit  by and then criticize others while never making a substantial post of your own. You have still not explained about the Eye of Horus, and somehow I doubt you will in any meaningful way.

[M. Williams]

6 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

That is his opinion, my opinion differs, and will continue to do so until conclusive evidence for fighting is presented. But what is your opinion, you don't seem to be very forthcoming in any of your posts about what you think about anything, and seem content to sit  by and then criticize others while never making a substantial post of your own. You have still not explained about the Eye of Horus, and somehow I doubt you will in any meaningful way.

There were inscriptions found other than the Narmer palette, so you dispute the interpretation of Dreyer ? Weeks !? Its not criticism of you personally. 

 

As for my 'Eye of Horus' theory....im perfectly willing to except all criticism and credit for it and I look forward to blowing your mind with it one day. But, in the meantime, lets get back to Dreyer.....

[Wepwawet]

2 minutes ago, M. Williams said:

There were inscriptions found other than the Narmer palette, so you dispute the interpretation of Dreyer ? Weeks !? Its not criticism of you personally. 

 

As for my 'Eye of Horus' theory....im perfectly willing to except all criticism and credit for it and I look forward to blowing your mind with it one day. But, in the meantime, lets get back to Dreyer.....

Yeah, it's so not personal that you called me ignorant, remember that, after you made your bizarre post about the Eye of Horus, and still won't explain yourself. Let's get away from your disruptions and get back to "If pyramids not tombs, where are the kings"...

[M. Williams]

36 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Yeah, it's so not personal that you called me ignorant, remember that, after you made your bizarre post about the Eye of Horus, and still won't explain yourself. Let's get away from your disruptions and get back to "If pyramids not tombs, where are the kings"...

I'll make you a deal. Stop calling me "incoherent" ,"bizarre" and "weird" and I'll stop pointing out your ignorance . Deal ?

[Wepwawet]

How about you stop disrupting this thread because there is clearly some history between you and the thread starter, and other posters here who have you on ignore.

As I think you want this thread to fall apart, I'll not give you any aid and take a bit more of your oxygen away, and that will leave the air a bit thin when nobody responds to you anymore....

[Thanos5150]

Quote

Of late, at King Khufu’s Pyramid Complex, there have been two occasions of interpretations of 'plain sight' irregularities that have previously passed unnoted. The first, referred to as Khufu’s Alpha Triangles had gradually become discernible from the times of Jomard, Vyse, Laure, Hussein and others as they began removing the Great Pyramid’s sand and stone debris.

The second instance is signified by Sakuji Yoshimura’s fresh observation of a conspicuous lacuna occurring in the Western Cemetery of the Complex. Dr. Yoshimura and his associates have initiated preliminary explorations into a conceivable theoretical location of King Khufu’s [non-pyramidal] burial site (specifically, the tomb’s “entrance”) at Giza.

Studies were initiated, and permissions granted by the then relevant Egyptian Ministry “of the 2011 revolution”, only to be delayed by the subsequent 2013 coup d'état. Archaeological permitting was resumed in the spring of 2016. In an effort to produce an exact three-dimensional map of the Western Cemetery, advanced technological surveying techniques were incorporated in the spring of 2017 producing a Summary Report published in The Journal of SHOUHEI Egyptian Archaeological Association, Higashi Nippon International University, Vol. 4, 2017.

This data for the Summary Report was collected with the use of (1) a seven meter, “pole-type low-altitude aerial system” created with ”a high-definition 3D survey model and 3D survey map from the image data taken by a digital camera” [use of drones is forbidden at Giza by security officials], (2) Electromagnetic Induction Exploration, (3) Ground Penetrating Radar, and (4) the aid of an automatic tracking ‘Total Station’ theodolite.

The resulting images indicate anomalies below the surface of the referenced zone in the Western Cemetery, specifically a subterranean ”large stone or cavity”.:

Figure 11: Hemiunu’s Mastaba (G 4000) Search Area Result (magnetic susceptibility slice view depth about 1.8 m)

 

And:

Quote

 

In the early 1980s Mark Lehner and his team from the American Research Center in Egypt measured and hand drew plans of the Sphinx, the Sphinx Temple, and the Khafre Valley Temple. In 1985 he penned some reflections of his interpretations of the collected data [“Giza, A Contextual Approach to the Pyramids,” Archiv für Orientforschung 32 (1985)]. He observed:
 

Quote

”At this time, and from this advantage, the sun sets almost exactly midway between the Khufu and Khafre Pyramids, thus construing the image of the akhet (“horizon”) hieroglyph on a scale of acres. The effect is…best seen from the top of the Sphinx Temple colonnade, or an equivalent height to the east of the temple where the sand rises…Even if coincidental, it is hard to imagine the Egyptians not seeing the ideogram. If somehow intentional, it ranks as an example of architectural illusionism on a grand, maybe the grandest scale.”

 

 

Summer Solstice Sunset 2500 BC and AD 2011

 

 

Trajectory toward Dr. Yoshimura’s Proposed Khufu Tomb Location from the Sphinx Temple at Summer Solstice Sunset

Dr. Lehner’s observations and annotations dovetail with Dr. Yoshimura’s Proposed Khufu Tomb Location theory, broadly. The foundation of Yoshimura's theory states that ‘the pyramid is not the tomb of the king’. A synthesis of several Japanese to English translations suggest that the entrance to the Royal Tomb may exist in the Western Cemetery lacuna, and that the burial site may be hidden under an adjacent mastaba, or mastabas [Hemiunu’s G 4000?].

 

Both quotes from Dr Troglodyte found HERE. 

Yoshimura is a notable Egypotlogist for among other things his work on the restoration of the Khufu II boat and scannig G1.

From an LA Times article: 

Quote

 

Using electromagnetic scanners to probe sound waves behind interior surfaces, his team found a 90-foot passage parallel to the so-called Queen’s Chamber, apparently veering off to the west side of the pyramid, previously thought to contain only stones.

“This is a key to a possible connection between the east and west sides of the pyramid,” Yoshimura said.

He said two other spaces were found in the King’s Chamber, one under the Pharaoh’s sarcophagus, the other between the chamber and the Grand Gallery, a steep limestone passage 153 feet long and 30 feet high.

After research in February on Cheops and the nearby Sphinx, a monument with a human face and a lion’s body, Yoshimura’s team, from Tokyo’s Waseda University, returned on a nine-day expedition this month to confirm previous findings.

Yoshimura surmised that the pyramid was built as a symbolic festival hall for souls on their return from the afterworld--rather than as a tomb.

“We should find passages, corridors, but not Cheops’ tomb. Possibly a burial chamber (containing funerary objects) but not a tomb,” he said.

“About 99% of the ancient Egyptians buried their dead underground.”

The tomb of Cheops, whose mummy was never found and was thought stolen by grave-robbers, was probably west of his pyramid, in a different-shaped structure, he said.

 

An apparent mention of a planned study of this area HERE. 

Yoshimura-yet another "fringe kook" who thinks the actual burial of a pharaoh (Khufu) was not in the pyramid. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Thanos5150

[Wepwawet]

Well I can step outside my box, again, and say that being buried within the horizon, literally, is an attractive idea that is worthy of investigation, Though I'll draw a line at Yoshimura suggesting that the pyramid was a "symbolic festival hall for the souls on their return from the afterworld" as it is at odds with their beliefs and just sounds plain daft.

My translator came up with this for the words written above the photos of them with their surveying equipment.

Quote

Here are still important remains sleeping underground may have in the future and to make a survey of all structures on the ground of the 3-dimensional recording, and the underground space exploration initiatives.

 

[M. Williams]

7 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

How about you stop disrupting this thread because there is clearly some history between you and the thread starter, and other posters here who have you on ignore.

As I think you want this thread to fall apart, I'll not give you any aid and take a bit more of your oxygen away, and that will leave the air a bit thin when nobody responds to you anymore....

I think Thanos is smart as a whip and Byrd is gonna do what Byrd does when presented with facts.  I was actually hoping Thanos would come at me with something about Bat being from Mesopotamia or the like and rock my world ,but nope. 

So, I guess we have to wait on your interpretation of the new finds related to Narmer ? Lol. 

A reason I have for discussing cattle is I believe pharoahs were removed from pyramids and buried in a serapeum similar to those at Saqqara. So for me , going back to the Narmer palette and double checking the accuracy of sexing done to bones is directly addressing the OP.

Believe it or not ,i'm actually going easy on you Wep. I've been meditating lately. 

[Unusual Tournament]

Wanda:
Otto, what are you doing?

Archie:
It's a Buddhist meditation technique. Focuses your aggression. The monks used to do it before going into battle.

[Thanos5150]

19 hours ago, M. Williams said:

I think Thanos is smart as a whip and Byrd is gonna do what Byrd does when presented with facts.  I was actually hoping Thanos would come at me with something about Bat being from Mesopotamia or the like and rock my world ,but nope. 

So, I guess we have to wait on your interpretation of the new finds related to Narmer ? Lol. 

A reason I have for discussing cattle is I believe pharoahs were removed from pyramids and buried in a serapeum similar to those at Saqqara. So for me , going back to the Narmer palette and double checking the accuracy of sexing done to bones is directly addressing the OP.

Believe it or not ,i'm actually going easy on you Wep. I've been meditating lately. 

Depictions of bulls are common in Mesopotamia from at least the 5th millennium onward, namely beginning with the Halaf Culture which by the 3rd millennium worship of the bull was ubiquitous. In one form or another the bull was venerated by numerous ancient cultures since Neolithic times if not well before. The Catalhoyuk culture of Anatolia c.7100-5600BC was particularly obsessed with the bull:

  

Again, the palace facade mastabas 1st Dynasty Saqqara:

At Uruk, in the late Uruk period, preceding and contemporary with the formation of the Egyptian Dynastic state there are numerous depictions of bulls found and again as noted during this period a common motif in Elam was affixes bull horns to buildings.  

The Pyramid Texts repeatedly refer to Unas as the "Bull of the Sky (heaven)" which the "Bull of Heaven" is also a common theme across several Mesopotamian cultures during the 3rd millennium as well.  

While the bull had many meanings to various cultures, one of the most pervasive and oldest seems to be an astronomical one which the bull was associated with the constellation Taurus.  Bat and Hathor among other things are also "sky goddesses". 

Regardless, I have no vested interest in the "meaning" of these bulls or whether they are male or female with my focus being the origins and impact of cultural diffusion from Mesopotamia and the Levant, though it goes without saying these are most commonly referred to as "bulls".  If you have something to say on the matter and have a theory to present then start a thread about it. 

Another Naqada III palette to add to the mix is the Bull Palette:

As an aside, we can also see in the lower left a fortified city wall done in the buttressed palace facade style which is not only seen on the Narmer palette:

But others as well like the Libyan Palette which shows several walled cities:

A lot to think about with this one. Whether or not these cities had actual palace facade walls surrounding them is unknown and no evidence of such has been found yet, but it is interesting that regardless the palace facade wall was at least the symbol for "city" which given some Mesopotamian cities at this time did have such walls, not to mention several large cities,  it would appear again this is yet another concept belonging to the Mesopotamian influence of the period. 

As far as fighting going on during this period, not necessarily with themselves but also foreigners, other Naqada III palettes depict such scenes, like the Battlefield Palette:

  

They were definitely fighting a lot with someone. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thanos5150

[Kenemet]

23 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

And:

(comments about the hieroglyph of the horizon)

There's a REAL problem with this (which would probably have been corrected by Lehrner's later works)... and that is that we are not seeing the pyramids as the ancient Egyptians saw them.

For one thing, there were walls around them.  There were temples there. There were trees.   In fact, there was a lot of architecture there.  While you might get a view like that from several points, there's no guarantee that they would have seen what you depict from that particular place.

So picking a point and saying something about its significance because this is the view that we have today is not a valid observation.

[Thanos5150]

25 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

There's a REAL problem with this (which would probably have been corrected by Lehrner's later works)...

Apparently not in which Hawass has come to agree with Lehner as well. A review of their their joint 2017 book Giza and the Pyramids: 

Quote

The authors are also in accord over a theory regarding the purpose of the Giza monuments. Lehner noticed that if you stand near the Sphinx during the summer solstice, the Sun appears to set midway between the pyramids of Khufu and Khafre, visually echoing a hieroglyph that symbolizes the cycle of life and rebirth. Along with other astronomical evidence, this has led him and Hawass to speculate that the progenitors of the complex saw it as a “cosmic engine” — a way of harnessing the power of the sun god Ra to resurrect the soul of the entombed pharaoh (see go.nature.com/2xupsis).

 

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Apparently not in which Hawass has come to agree with Lehner as well. A review of their their joint 2017 book Giza and the Pyramids: 

Again, you wouldn't have seen that at the time of the building of G1 and you might not have seen it with G2.  You might be able to see it if you stand at the right spot and look at G2 and G3.  I don't find it entirely convincing.  Coincidental, yes.  Convincing, no.

I suspect there are Egyptologists who will not entirely agree with Hawass and Lehner.  

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Again, you wouldn't have seen that at the time of the building of G1 and you might not have seen it with G2.  You might be able to see it if you stand at the right spot and look at G2 and G3.  I don't find it entirely convincing.  Coincidental, yes.  Convincing, no.

I suspect there are Egyptologists who will not entirely agree with Hawass and Lehner.  

Yes the great and special mystery of: 'if you stand somewhere to the east of two points in the west sooner or later the sun will set between then. Even MORE mysterious it will happen more than once...almost like on a schedule -darn

Even more marvelous if you reverse the situation it works too and you have the sun rise between the two points! Wonders of wonders.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Hanslune

[M. Williams]

2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Again, you wouldn't have seen that at the time of the building of G1 and you might not have seen it with G2.  You might be able to see it if you stand at the right spot and look at G2 and G3.  I don't find it entirely convincing.  Coincidental, yes.  Convincing, no.

I suspect there are Egyptologists who will not entirely agree with Hawass and Lehner.  

Lehner addresses your questions sufficently on pg. 447 of Giza and The Pyramids,

"The shift of the Sphinx and the Sphinx Temple axis to the south of the Khafre pyramid axis allowed an alignment with the rising and setting of the sun at its due east and west positions- the equinoxes. "

This coincided with an advance in the solar cult during Khafre's reign. 

 

Lehner, 

"One wonders to what extent such dramatic configurations inspired and advanced the solar cult themes, rather than the reverse. " 

 

[Trelane]

What in the actual **** does any of this have to do with the pharaohs being buried somewhere else?????

[Wepwawet]

On 5/26/2020 at 9:39 AM, Wepwawet said:

The, as it turned out, weird foray into the narmer Palette aside, progress could be made by discussing whether the pyramid of Senusret III was his tomb, or whether it is a cenotaph and he was buried at Abydos. And discussing the whereabouts of Amenemhat IV and Sobekneferu if they were never buried in the Southern and Northern Mazghuna pyramids respectively, and neither has a mortuary temple at Mazghuna or anywhere else.

......

Edited May 30, 2020 by Wepwawet

[Thanos5150]

19 hours ago, Kenemet said:

There's a REAL problem with this (which would probably have been corrected by Lehrner's later works)... and that is that we are not seeing the pyramids as the ancient Egyptians saw them.

For one thing, there were walls around them.  There were temples there. There were trees.   In fact, there was a lot of architecture there.  While you might get a view like that from several points, there's no guarantee that they would have seen what you depict from that particular place.

So picking a point and saying something about its significance because this is the view that we have today is not a valid observation.

You are mistaken. Again. Most whatever built in the OK in the line of sight is still there today and/or archaeologically accounted for :

And what you think is missing is actually not. Standing atop the Sphinx Temple, there are no walls that would obscure this line, but since you think there were can you reference which ones exactly? No contemporary temples, which would be quite the archaeological discovery if there was, but please give a reference to the temple(s) that were there in the 4th Dynasty that now are not that would have blocked this view.

The area directly south and north of the G2 causeway is the Khufu quarry in which blocks were transported north from/across it, so whatever few trees may have been in this path, you know, before the tens of thousands of tons of wood needed just to make the mortar for G1, were removed for construction logistics and transport from the quarry. 

And if there were a few trees here and there still killing their solstice buzz, I bet they could just cut them down. Not to mention any "walls" or "temples" built there logistically could have only happened after G1 was built and probably after G2 as well (or at least started). If we notice the mastabas on the south side of G1 (cemetery GIS), these date to the end of the 4th Dynasty to the 6th meaning this area was not buildable until that time which we can also see they clearly respect a boundary that terminates at the quarry.  

The space between the trench that surroundings the base of G2 and the west field mastabas is relatively small with the space between the two its own path:

So, no, there would not be "walls, temples, and trees" in the way in the 4th Dynasty that are now missing. Regardless of any astronomical alignment, there are logistical and environmental reasons this path was left "bare". But yeah, I am not sure what the likes of Lehner, Dash, and Hawass, with a combined experience of excavating and researching the Giza plateau of over 100yrs, were thinking there by not accounting for a bunch of non-existent "walls, temples, and trees" that were not there to be in the way "back then". 

Ironically, the only thing that is now "missing" that would have obstructed this view is whatever was in the empty spot near G 4000. 

Regardless, I think this alignment is coincidence and whatever the DE may have thought about it happened after the fact when they noticed it. Regarding the missing tomb of Khufu, if one is looking for alignments the G1 causeway with its lone curiously placed solar boat also leads near it as well.   

Edited May 30, 2020 by Thanos5150

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

You are mistaken. Again. Most whatever built in the OK in the line of sight is still there today and/or archaeologically accounted for :

And what you think is missing is actually not. Standing atop the Sphinx Temple, there are no walls that would obscure this line, but since you think there were can you reference which ones exactly? No contemporary temples, which would be quite the archaeological discovery if there was, but please give a reference to the temple(s) that were there in the 4th Dynasty that now are not that would have blocked this view.

Temples weren't for standing on, and your second illustration shows at least two walls that might have interfered with a view.

 

 

Quote

Regardless, I think this alignment is coincidence and whatever the DE may have thought about it happened after the fact when they noticed it. Regarding the missing tomb of Khufu, if one is looking for alignments the G1 causeway with its lone curiously placed solar boat also leads near it as well.   

We agree, then, that we think it's coincidence.  The other support for coincidence that I thought of late last night is that the Akeru were sunrise deities... then I looked them up this morning (good thing I did) and found out that they were the gods of the horizon.  Soooooooo...  Another Fine Theory of Mine Shot to Bits.  Bah!

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Temples weren't for standing on, and your second illustration shows at least two walls that might have interfered with a view.

 

Well, if you think temples weren't for standing on then I guess that's it then. Regardless, Lehner does not require the temple to be stood on, don't think he even mentions it, and Dash puts the observer inside the temple. I just threw that in there as it would certainly make for a better vantage point though not required. Even better, the Sphinx's back. 

So we've eliminated trees and temples and I am not sure where you see two walls, let alone "at least" two implying others. But the G2 enclosure wall in front of the Western cemetery, regardless of its height, would not make a difference either which way as both it and the West Field would be (are) completely obscured by the foreground horizon created by the slope of the plateau:

.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Thanos5150