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If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?


Thanos5150
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Just now, jmccr8 said:

Hi Thanos

Thanks for engaging, my point about the electronic ignition was not that it was impossible but more directed at the fact that it was possible and just needed to have some effort applied, some mechanics are more of a parts replacer than a mechanic that explores potential and has an aptitude to be creative.

My pleasure. 

I understand your point which is a good one.   

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On 12/12/2021 at 4:23 AM, Wepwawet said:

I'll go through your other points later. For this one though I'll point out that you are somewhat misrepresenting me and distorting the point I was making.

Oh...? How so? 

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It is an inherent weakness in the design of a pyramid in that access was needed to the burial chamber after construction. If they needed to seal something up that was not the body of the king, then, as I mentioned, it would be better to seal the chamber up during construction, thereby, in the case of G1, eliminating the weakness of the portculis arrangment.

You just said this which I responded:

"This was talked about before of course at length that despite there being no body this assumes there was nothing of value contained inside, real or symbolic, that needed this "protection" all the same. As noted at length through this thread with pictures, links, and quotes, there are several examples of pyramids thought by Egyptologists to be cenotaphs, and/or contradictions such as the pyramids Sneferu, yet are no different than the "real ones" so what compels you to now bring this up again as some kind of epiphany is beyond me."  

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That the chambers in pyramids were not sealed during construction indicates, very clearly, that access was needed to place something in the pyramid after construction was finished.

Right. 

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As a matter of common sense if nothing else, what could this something be other than the body of the king.

Using common sense, as noted in the OP, how'd that work out for every single pharaoh ever? When the pharaoh died the funerary precession, we assume, under the watchful eyes of a grieving nation, took him from the Nile up the causeway, through the mortuary temple (which as spoken of before in G1's case at least is argued by some Egyptologists to no be able to support this), hauled up the side of the pyramid, slid down the descending passage and back up past the QC to the GG, placed into the sarcophagus in the KC, and the portcullis sealed behind them. All this despite every confidence he too would be robbed of his body and all evidence he was there just like those before him including his own father. 

The symbolic connection to this chamber and sarcophagus, and the need to protect its contents and this very religious connection, it is assumed was just as important whether the body was there or not yet not being there, yet as the pharaoh would have known full well it was the only guarantee the body would be preserved if it was truly hidden. 

As an aside, we are told the QC was to be the original burial chamber but because Khufu was an egomaniacal loon he changed his mind and put it higher up the pyramid. If this were true then why none of these protections for this chamber? 

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Yes, there are anomalies, and I mentioned this in my post, and yes, there is an issue with them, but the very few anomalies cannot be taken as representative of all other pyramids.

As noted at length in the OP and throughout this thread these anomalies are not "few" but the norm with those prior to G1 in particular not even containing a sarcophagus with the exception being Djoser and Sekhemkhet whose sarcophagus was found sealed and empty and pyramid thought to not been finished all but guaranteeing he was buried elsewhere which as discussed could not have been a last minute thing. Hardly a glowing endorsement which also makes us wonder about Djoser. As I have noted there are many pyramids thought to be cenotaphs and/or never contain a burial. I did not make this up.

I would also note the intact tomb of Hetepheres, mother of Khufu, my fault for not interjecting it sooner which unfortunately your argument has only now reminded me, who despite all of her famous grave goods found undisturbed in her tomb-the sarcophagus was found sealed and empty. 

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...within the burial chamber there were many beautiful objects made of gilded wood, including a portable pavilion, a bed, two armchairs and a carrying chair, as well as a curtain box, a leather case for walking sticks, several wooden boxes, some copper tools and numerous other small objects, including twenty silver bracelets inlaid with turquoise, lapis lazuli and carnelian. There was also an alabaster sarcophagus that was found against one wall of the chamber, but to everyone's amazement, considering the plaster blocking fill, it was empty, and hence, one of several mysteries surrounding this tomb. The opening of the queen's sarcophagus well into the second season of work at the tomb had been keenly anticipated in almost festive surroundings. Dows Dunham records that:

"On March 3, 1927, a distinquished company [of eight or so people] assembled one hundred feet underground... At a nod from Reisner, the jacks that had been placed for the purpose began to turn. Slowly a crack appeared between the lid and the box. Little by little it widened until we could see intot he upper part of the box; nothing was visible. AS the lid rose higher we could see further into the interior and finally to the bottom of the box..."

The account was taken up by an artist named Lindon Smith, who recounts:

"When it was sufficiently raised for me to peer inside, I saw to my dismay that the queen was not there - the sarcophagus was empty!

 

How are we to explain this? A tomb with all of its grave goods untouched, including sealed sarcophagus, the queen mother no less, and yet no body? No tomb robbers to blame this one on. 

Reisner came up with some fanciful tale about an imaginary original burial at Dashur and the hijinks ensues, but Lehner all but destroyed this notion. I am done for the night but may revisit this more tomorrow. 

As an aside, Djoser is credited with having a "sarcophagus" but it is a curious one at that:

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pir%C3%A1mide-de-Zoser-restauraci%C3%B3n

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I did not mention "treasure" in my post at all, however, if a king where not placed in the pyramid, there would not be any need for burial goods, which would be wherever the king was actually buried as they would serve no purpose seperated from him.

You did not need to. It is implied. 

The pyramid being the resurrection machine, and the body was symbolically connected to the sarcophagus, it would need to be protected all the same. Of course this is conjecture on my part yet it does not change the facts all the same. See the last 29pgs.  

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We talk about "treasure", they saw these goods are essential for the afterlife, therefore would be with the king. So, anomalies aside, if you have a pyramid with chambers inside it, chambers made to be accessible after completion, ie, after the death of the king in normal circumstances, what do you propose was placed in these chambers if not the king and his burial goods. I would say that if they did put burial goods inside a pyramid without the king, then that would be good cause to seal them up during construction, thus making it very difficult for thieves indeed.

See above. There would be a ceremonial component to all this in which it is possible the pharaoh's body was placed inside the pyramid for a time after his death and later removed as obviously his cult would not have the means to protect his body forever. 

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This would go for any other "goods", and you will recall that Scott Creighton contributed to this thread early on, and he of course had a book published positing that pyramids were "seed repositories". I did not say in my post that you stated anything about other "goods" being in a pyramid, and that clears one further point.

I am not Scott. It is misleading and demeaning not only to me but the topic to lump us together all the same. 

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And another one while I'm in the mood. My "epithany" to make that post, and why say something so overblown, was sparked by this interesting thread Khufu’s King’s Chamber Great Lintel started by Dr T on the GH forum. The thread does not discuss the specific point I have been making, but it does follow that questions should be asked as to why so much trouble should be made to allow access to the chamber after construction was completed if not to place the body of the king inside. In fact, not needing to place a king and his burial goods inside any pyramid would have made construction somewhat easier, but, they all have chambers, even the few anomalies, or rather, not so much anomalies, as structures that we have so far failed to fully understand.

The KC features many large blocks all the same which as Dr T notes its purpose is to support the loads above it calling it a "structural solution" and has no bearing on keeping anyone out or not.  

Edited by Thanos5150
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On 12/13/2021 at 11:32 PM, Thanos5150 said:

I would also note the intact tomb of Hetepheres, mother of Khufu, my fault for not interjecting it sooner which unfortunately your argument has only now reminded me, who despite all of her famous grave goods found undisturbed in her tomb-the sarcophagus was found sealed and empty. 

Quote

 

...within the burial chamber there were many beautiful objects made of gilded wood, including a portable pavilion, a bed, two armchairs and a carrying chair, as well as a curtain box, a leather case for walking sticks, several wooden boxes, some copper tools and numerous other small objects, including twenty silver bracelets inlaid with turquoise, lapis lazuli and carnelian. There was also an alabaster sarcophagus that was found against one wall of the chamber, but to everyone's amazement, considering the plaster blocking fill, it was empty, and hence, one of several mysteries surrounding this tomb. The opening of the queen's sarcophagus well into the second season of work at the tomb had been keenly anticipated in almost festive surroundings. Dows Dunham records that:

"On March 3, 1927, a distinquished company [of eight or so people] assembled one hundred feet underground... At a nod from Reisner, the jacks that had been placed for the purpose began to turn. Slowly a crack appeared between the lid and the box. Little by little it widened until we could see intot he upper part of the box; nothing was visible. AS the lid rose higher we could see further into the interior and finally to the bottom of the box..."

The account was taken up by an artist named Lindon Smith, who recounts:

"When it was sufficiently raised for me to peer inside, I saw to my dismay that the queen was not there - the sarcophagus was empty!

 

How are we to explain this? A tomb with all of its grave goods untouched, including sealed sarcophagus, the queen mother no less, and yet no body? No tomb robbers to blame this one on. 

According to Lehner, to confirm:

The burial chamber and tomb shaft of G7000x were found completely sealed.

The body could not have been removed since this sealing.

No body was found in the sarcophagus.

It would never-have been removed by officials from the equipment intended for the use of Hetep-heres I's spirit (1928, 82).

It must have been removed before the burial assembly was placed in G7000x.

This is quite interesting:

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In spite of the indications of haste in the Hetep-heres burial - the cutting of the shaft and, possibly, the workmanship of the pottery, the body could have been kept for eight or nine months between death and burial, if the inscriptions on the chapel door of the tomb of Meres' ankh III are any indication. There the time between death and burial was 273 or 274 days (Dunham and Simpson 1974,8, Fig. 2, PI. IIa). This would certainly be time enough to manufacture quality pottery if not to cut a good burial shaft. The circumstances of either Meres'ankh Ill's or Hetepheres I's death and burial may have been atypical.

I'd like to find that inscription. To the last bit, given people did not conveniently die before their tomb was completed, this may have been typical. Pharaohs would be no different suggesting they may not have been buried in their pyramid after their death and were kept elsewhere for 8-9 months-but where? Another tomb perhaps? How would this work in informing the people? Would a mock ceremony be held at the time of death ceremonially "burying' the body in the pyramid yet it was actually kept elsewhere? Hmm. 

And:

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Would the queen-mother's body have been removed from G7000x while the greater part of her burial equipment was left? Most serious is the fact that the canopic chest, presumably containing the queen's viscera, was also left behind. Considering that the canopic chest is usually close beside the sarcophagus in the same burial chamber, or an annex thereof, would it have been conceivable to leave it when the body was transferred? 

 Lehner has no answers as to how this all could be. The queen mother was comparable in status with the pharaoh and at times, perhaps more than realized, served as pharaoh themselves. Their burial status was to have their own pyramid next to the king, which even nomarch's did not have pyramids, suggesting they too took the same path as the king and needed their own "resurrection machine" bound by the same practical concerns as the king. If the tombs of the pharaohs were not in their pyramids, it stands to reason the queen mother at the least would be buried with them. I will have to spend some time researching the tombs of queens and the satellite pyramids. 

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3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

According to Lehner, to confirm:

The burial chamber and tomb shaft of G7000x were found completely sealed.

The body could not have been removed since this sealing.

No body was found in the sarcophagus.

It would never-have been removed by officials from the equipment intended for the use of Hetep-heres I's spirit (1928, 82).

It must have been removed before the burial assembly was placed in G7000x.

This is quite interesting:

I'd like to find that inscription. To the last bit, given people did not conveniently die before their tomb was completed, this may have been typical. Pharaohs would be no different suggesting they may not have been buried in their pyramid after their death and were kept elsewhere for 8-9 months-but where? Another tomb perhaps? How would this work in informing the people? Would a mock ceremony be held at the time of death ceremonially "burying' the body in the pyramid yet it was actually kept elsewhere? Hmm. 

And:

 Lehner has no answers as to how this all could be. The queen mother was comparable in status with the pharaoh and at times, perhaps more than realized, served as pharaoh themselves. Their burial status was to have their own pyramid next to the king, which even nomarch's did not have pyramids, suggesting they too took the same path as the king and needed their own "resurrection machine" bound by the same practical concerns as the king. If the tombs of the pharaohs were not in their pyramids, it stands to reason the queen mother at the least would be buried with them. I will have to spend some time researching the tombs of queens and the satellite pyramids. 

 

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

...

According to Lehner, to confirm:

The burial chamber and tomb shaft of G7000x were found completely sealed.

The body could not have been removed since this sealing.

No body was found in the sarcophagus.

It would never-have been removed by officials from the equipment intended for the use of Hetep-heres I's spirit (1928, 82).

It must have been removed before the burial assembly was placed in G7000x.

This is quite interesting:

"In spite of the indications of haste in the Hetep-heres burial - the cutting of the shaft and, possibly, the workmanship of the pottery, the body could have been kept for eight or nine months between death and burial, if the inscriptions on the chapel door of the tomb of Meres' ankh III are any indication. There the time between death and burial was 273 or 274 days (Dunham and Simpson 1974,8, Fig. 2, PI. IIa). This would certainly be time enough to manufacture quality pottery if not to cut a good burial shaft. The circumstances of either Meres'ankh Ill's or Hetepheres I's death and burial may have been atypical."

I'd like to find that inscription.

...

The translation of the inscription appears here (p. 74). Fig. 18 is shown on pg. 77.

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5 hours ago, Windowpane said:

The translation of the inscription appears here (p. 74). Fig. 18 is shown on pg. 77.

Thank you. 

Also of note is p.72 we see sculptors working away on the lid of MIII's granite serekh sarcophagus. One guy with a hammer and chisel and the other is polishing the surface with an object. 

l_IDT_pjJ5sfYXiqvgu8tN9gsbRwsYz4UOADT3IE 

Above it sculptors working on statues.

Her remains as spoken of elsewhere shown an unusually shaped skull being notably wide at the top, long in the back (dolichocephalic), and large eye sockets:2cde541c5546f61c7f3df244b024fe5f.jpg

A story for another time. 

There is a cartouche of Khufu. Many many boats. A few depictions of priest holding very large scrolls. A very large Anubis and not Sphinx which I have mentioned before. And more. 

Modern color photos

MIII virtual tour.

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