If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

[Thanos5150]

Just now, jmccr8 said:

Hi Thanos

Thanks for engaging, my point about the electronic ignition was not that it was impossible but more directed at the fact that it was possible and just needed to have some effort applied, some mechanics are more of a parts replacer than a mechanic that explores potential and has an aptitude to be creative.

My pleasure. 

I understand your point which is a good one.   

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Thanos5150 said:

My pleasure. 

I understand your point which is a good one.   

Hi Thanos

Thank you.

[Thanos5150]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:23 AM, Wepwawet said:

I'll go through your other points later. For this one though I'll point out that you are somewhat misrepresenting me and distorting the point I was making.

Oh...? How so? 

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It is an inherent weakness in the design of a pyramid in that access was needed to the burial chamber after construction. If they needed to seal something up that was not the body of the king, then, as I mentioned, it would be better to seal the chamber up during construction, thereby, in the case of G1, eliminating the weakness of the portculis arrangment.

You just said this which I responded:

"This was talked about before of course at length that despite there being no body this assumes there was nothing of value contained inside, real or symbolic, that needed this "protection" all the same. As noted at length through this thread with pictures, links, and quotes, there are several examples of pyramids thought by Egyptologists to be cenotaphs, and/or contradictions such as the pyramids Sneferu, yet are no different than the "real ones" so what compels you to now bring this up again as some kind of epiphany is beyond me."  

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That the chambers in pyramids were not sealed during construction indicates, very clearly, that access was needed to place something in the pyramid after construction was finished.

Right. 

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As a matter of common sense if nothing else, what could this something be other than the body of the king.

Using common sense, as noted in the OP, how'd that work out for every single pharaoh ever? When the pharaoh died the funerary precession, we assume, under the watchful eyes of a grieving nation, took him from the Nile up the causeway, through the mortuary temple (which as spoken of before in G1's case at least is argued by some Egyptologists to no be able to support this), hauled up the side of the pyramid, slid down the descending passage and back up past the QC to the GG, placed into the sarcophagus in the KC, and the portcullis sealed behind them. All this despite every confidence he too would be robbed of his body and all evidence he was there just like those before him including his own father. 

The symbolic connection to this chamber and sarcophagus, and the need to protect its contents and this very religious connection, it is assumed was just as important whether the body was there or not yet not being there, yet as the pharaoh would have known full well it was the only guarantee the body would be preserved if it was truly hidden. 

As an aside, we are told the QC was to be the original burial chamber but because Khufu was an egomaniacal loon he changed his mind and put it higher up the pyramid. If this were true then why none of these protections for this chamber? 

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Yes, there are anomalies, and I mentioned this in my post, and yes, there is an issue with them, but the very few anomalies cannot be taken as representative of all other pyramids.

As noted at length in the OP and throughout this thread these anomalies are not "few" but the norm with those prior to G1 in particular not even containing a sarcophagus with the exception being Djoser and Sekhemkhet whose sarcophagus was found sealed and empty and pyramid thought to not been finished all but guaranteeing he was buried elsewhere which as discussed could not have been a last minute thing. Hardly a glowing endorsement which also makes us wonder about Djoser. As I have noted there are many pyramids thought to be cenotaphs and/or never contain a burial. I did not make this up.

I would also note the intact tomb of Hetepheres, mother of Khufu, my fault for not interjecting it sooner which unfortunately your argument has only now reminded me, who despite all of her famous grave goods found undisturbed in her tomb-the sarcophagus was found sealed and empty. 

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...within the burial chamber there were many beautiful objects made of gilded wood, including a portable pavilion, a bed, two armchairs and a carrying chair, as well as a curtain box, a leather case for walking sticks, several wooden boxes, some copper tools and numerous other small objects, including twenty silver bracelets inlaid with turquoise, lapis lazuli and carnelian. There was also an alabaster sarcophagus that was found against one wall of the chamber, but to everyone's amazement, considering the plaster blocking fill, it was empty, and hence, one of several mysteries surrounding this tomb. The opening of the queen's sarcophagus well into the second season of work at the tomb had been keenly anticipated in almost festive surroundings. Dows Dunham records that:

"On March 3, 1927, a distinquished company [of eight or so people] assembled one hundred feet underground... At a nod from Reisner, the jacks that had been placed for the purpose began to turn. Slowly a crack appeared between the lid and the box. Little by little it widened until we could see intot he upper part of the box; nothing was visible. AS the lid rose higher we could see further into the interior and finally to the bottom of the box..."

The account was taken up by an artist named Lindon Smith, who recounts:

"When it was sufficiently raised for me to peer inside, I saw to my dismay that the queen was not there - the sarcophagus was empty!

 

How are we to explain this? A tomb with all of its grave goods untouched, including sealed sarcophagus, the queen mother no less, and yet no body? No tomb robbers to blame this one on. 

Reisner came up with some fanciful tale about an imaginary original burial at Dashur and the hijinks ensues, but Lehner all but destroyed this notion. I am done for the night but may revisit this more tomorrow. 

As an aside, Djoser is credited with having a "sarcophagus" but it is a curious one at that:

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I did not mention "treasure" in my post at all, however, if a king where not placed in the pyramid, there would not be any need for burial goods, which would be wherever the king was actually buried as they would serve no purpose seperated from him.

You did not need to. It is implied. 

The pyramid being the resurrection machine, and the body was symbolically connected to the sarcophagus, it would need to be protected all the same. Of course this is conjecture on my part yet it does not change the facts all the same. See the last 29pgs.  

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We talk about "treasure", they saw these goods are essential for the afterlife, therefore would be with the king. So, anomalies aside, if you have a pyramid with chambers inside it, chambers made to be accessible after completion, ie, after the death of the king in normal circumstances, what do you propose was placed in these chambers if not the king and his burial goods. I would say that if they did put burial goods inside a pyramid without the king, then that would be good cause to seal them up during construction, thus making it very difficult for thieves indeed.

See above. There would be a ceremonial component to all this in which it is possible the pharaoh's body was placed inside the pyramid for a time after his death and later removed as obviously his cult would not have the means to protect his body forever. 

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This would go for any other "goods", and you will recall that Scott Creighton contributed to this thread early on, and he of course had a book published positing that pyramids were "seed repositories". I did not say in my post that you stated anything about other "goods" being in a pyramid, and that clears one further point.

I am not Scott. It is misleading and demeaning not only to me but the topic to lump us together all the same. 

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And another one while I'm in the mood. My "epithany" to make that post, and why say something so overblown, was sparked by this interesting thread Khufu’s King’s Chamber Great Lintel started by Dr T on the GH forum. The thread does not discuss the specific point I have been making, but it does follow that questions should be asked as to why so much trouble should be made to allow access to the chamber after construction was completed if not to place the body of the king inside. In fact, not needing to place a king and his burial goods inside any pyramid would have made construction somewhat easier, but, they all have chambers, even the few anomalies, or rather, not so much anomalies, as structures that we have so far failed to fully understand.

The KC features many large blocks all the same which as Dr T notes its purpose is to support the loads above it calling it a "structural solution" and has no bearing on keeping anyone out or not.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

On 12/13/2021 at 11:32 PM, Thanos5150 said:

I would also note the intact tomb of Hetepheres, mother of Khufu, my fault for not interjecting it sooner which unfortunately your argument has only now reminded me, who despite all of her famous grave goods found undisturbed in her tomb-the sarcophagus was found sealed and empty. 

Quote

 

...within the burial chamber there were many beautiful objects made of gilded wood, including a portable pavilion, a bed, two armchairs and a carrying chair, as well as a curtain box, a leather case for walking sticks, several wooden boxes, some copper tools and numerous other small objects, including twenty silver bracelets inlaid with turquoise, lapis lazuli and carnelian. There was also an alabaster sarcophagus that was found against one wall of the chamber, but to everyone's amazement, considering the plaster blocking fill, it was empty, and hence, one of several mysteries surrounding this tomb. The opening of the queen's sarcophagus well into the second season of work at the tomb had been keenly anticipated in almost festive surroundings. Dows Dunham records that:

"On March 3, 1927, a distinquished company [of eight or so people] assembled one hundred feet underground... At a nod from Reisner, the jacks that had been placed for the purpose began to turn. Slowly a crack appeared between the lid and the box. Little by little it widened until we could see intot he upper part of the box; nothing was visible. AS the lid rose higher we could see further into the interior and finally to the bottom of the box..."

The account was taken up by an artist named Lindon Smith, who recounts:

"When it was sufficiently raised for me to peer inside, I saw to my dismay that the queen was not there - the sarcophagus was empty!

 

How are we to explain this? A tomb with all of its grave goods untouched, including sealed sarcophagus, the queen mother no less, and yet no body? No tomb robbers to blame this one on. 

According to Lehner, to confirm:

The burial chamber and tomb shaft of G7000x were found completely sealed.

The body could not have been removed since this sealing.

No body was found in the sarcophagus.

It would never-have been removed by officials from the equipment intended for the use of Hetep-heres I's spirit (1928, 82).

It must have been removed before the burial assembly was placed in G7000x.

This is quite interesting:

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In spite of the indications of haste in the Hetep-heres burial - the cutting of the shaft and, possibly, the workmanship of the pottery, the body could have been kept for eight or nine months between death and burial, if the inscriptions on the chapel door of the tomb of Meres' ankh III are any indication. There the time between death and burial was 273 or 274 days (Dunham and Simpson 1974,8, Fig. 2, PI. IIa). This would certainly be time enough to manufacture quality pottery if not to cut a good burial shaft. The circumstances of either Meres'ankh Ill's or Hetepheres I's death and burial may have been atypical.

I'd like to find that inscription. To the last bit, given people did not conveniently die before their tomb was completed, this may have been typical. Pharaohs would be no different suggesting they may not have been buried in their pyramid after their death and were kept elsewhere for 8-9 months-but where? Another tomb perhaps? How would this work in informing the people? Would a mock ceremony be held at the time of death ceremonially "burying' the body in the pyramid yet it was actually kept elsewhere? Hmm. 

And:

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Would the queen-mother's body have been removed from G7000x while the greater part of her burial equipment was left? Most serious is the fact that the canopic chest, presumably containing the queen's viscera, was also left behind. Considering that the canopic chest is usually close beside the sarcophagus in the same burial chamber, or an annex thereof, would it have been conceivable to leave it when the body was transferred? 

 Lehner has no answers as to how this all could be. The queen mother was comparable in status with the pharaoh and at times, perhaps more than realized, served as pharaoh themselves. Their burial status was to have their own pyramid next to the king, which even nomarch's did not have pyramids, suggesting they too took the same path as the king and needed their own "resurrection machine" bound by the same practical concerns as the king. If the tombs of the pharaohs were not in their pyramids, it stands to reason the queen mother at the least would be buried with them. I will have to spend some time researching the tombs of queens and the satellite pyramids. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Thanos5150

[Windowpane]

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

According to Lehner, to confirm:

The burial chamber and tomb shaft of G7000x were found completely sealed.

The body could not have been removed since this sealing.

No body was found in the sarcophagus.

It would never-have been removed by officials from the equipment intended for the use of Hetep-heres I's spirit (1928, 82).

It must have been removed before the burial assembly was placed in G7000x.

This is quite interesting:

I'd like to find that inscription. To the last bit, given people did not conveniently die before their tomb was completed, this may have been typical. Pharaohs would be no different suggesting they may not have been buried in their pyramid after their death and were kept elsewhere for 8-9 months-but where? Another tomb perhaps? How would this work in informing the people? Would a mock ceremony be held at the time of death ceremonially "burying' the body in the pyramid yet it was actually kept elsewhere? Hmm. 

And:

 Lehner has no answers as to how this all could be. The queen mother was comparable in status with the pharaoh and at times, perhaps more than realized, served as pharaoh themselves. Their burial status was to have their own pyramid next to the king, which even nomarch's did not have pyramids, suggesting they too took the same path as the king and needed their own "resurrection machine" bound by the same practical concerns as the king. If the tombs of the pharaohs were not in their pyramids, it stands to reason the queen mother at the least would be buried with them. I will have to spend some time researching the tombs of queens and the satellite pyramids. 

 

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

...

According to Lehner, to confirm:

The burial chamber and tomb shaft of G7000x were found completely sealed.

The body could not have been removed since this sealing.

No body was found in the sarcophagus.

It would never-have been removed by officials from the equipment intended for the use of Hetep-heres I's spirit (1928, 82).

It must have been removed before the burial assembly was placed in G7000x.

This is quite interesting:

"In spite of the indications of haste in the Hetep-heres burial - the cutting of the shaft and, possibly, the workmanship of the pottery, the body could have been kept for eight or nine months between death and burial, if the inscriptions on the chapel door of the tomb of Meres' ankh III are any indication. There the time between death and burial was 273 or 274 days (Dunham and Simpson 1974,8, Fig. 2, PI. IIa). This would certainly be time enough to manufacture quality pottery if not to cut a good burial shaft. The circumstances of either Meres'ankh Ill's or Hetepheres I's death and burial may have been atypical."

I'd like to find that inscription.

...

The translation of the inscription appears here (p. 74). Fig. 18 is shown on pg. 77.

[Thanos5150]

5 hours ago, Windowpane said:

The translation of the inscription appears here (p. 74). Fig. 18 is shown on pg. 77.

Thank you. 

Also of note is p.72 we see sculptors working away on the lid of MIII's granite serekh sarcophagus. One guy with a hammer and chisel and the other is polishing the surface with an object. 

 

Above it sculptors working on statues.

Her remains as spoken of elsewhere shown an unusually shaped skull being notably wide at the top, long in the back (dolichocephalic), and large eye sockets:

A story for another time. 

There is a cartouche of Khufu. Many many boats. A few depictions of priest holding very large scrolls. A very large Anubis and not Sphinx which I have mentioned before. And more. 

Modern color photos

MIII virtual tour.

[Thanos5150]

An article quoting Hawass RE the Scans Pyramid Project voids:  Egypt breakthrough: Archaeologist claimed 'treasure STILL hiding' in Great Pyramid voids

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AN EGYPT breakthrough is waiting to be made, according to leading archaeologist Dr Zahi Hawass, who claimed: "The treasures of Khufu are still hidden inside the Great Pyramid."....

But Dr Hawass previously told Express.co.uk that he "knew about" the voids beforehand, adding: "If you know how the Great Pyramid was constructed, then you know it has lots of voids.

“We hope to find [that] the body of Khufu could be discovered, that something important could be discovered in these voids."

He told LiveScience in 2013: "I really believe that Khufu's chamber is not discovered yet and all the three chambers were just to deceive the thieves.

"The treasures of Khufu [are] still hidden inside the Great Pyramid, and these three doors could be the key to open this burial chamber.

"There is no pyramid of the 123 pyramids in Egypt that have these type of doors with copper handles.

"Really, I believe they're hiding something."

So in essence Hawass believes the KC is not Khufu's "real" burial chamber and the sarcophagus was never intended to inter a body. It's hidden somewhere else which Hawass believes may still be inside G1. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Unusual Tournament]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

An article quoting Hawass RE the Scans Pyramid Project voids:  Egypt breakthrough: Archaeologist claimed 'treasure STILL hiding' in Great Pyramid voids

So in essence Hawass believes the KC is not Khufu's "real" burial chamber and the sarcophagus was never intended to inter a body. It's hidden somewhere else which Hawass believes may still be inside G1. 

Caliph al-Ma'mun's forced entrance in the Great Pyramid in the 7th century is well documented. It was the first time someone had entered and no sarcophagus or relics of any kind were found.

If it is a tomb then the burial chamber has yet to be found.

 

[Thanos5150]

13 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Caliph al-Ma'mun's forced entrance in the Great Pyramid in the 7th century is well documented. It was the first time someone had entered and no sarcophagus or relics of any kind were found.

If it is a tomb then the burial chamber has yet to be found.

If true this would certainly tell us all we needed to know, sealed empty sarcophagus to boot. It is "something", but there are several reasons to doubt Ma'mun was the first to enter the upper chambers let alone did not know where the entrance was. 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

If true this would certainly tell us all we needed to know, sealed empty sarcophagus to boot. It is "something", but there are several reasons to doubt Ma'mun was the first to enter the upper chambers let alone did not know where the entrance was. 

From my reading he was the first to force his way in before the outta limestone case was removed. His people searched without success for an entrance and forced their way in. All documented by the Christian Bishop of the time and his engineers 

[atalante]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:06 AM, Thanos5150 said:

An article quoting Hawass RE the Scans Pyramid Project voids:  Egypt breakthrough: Archaeologist claimed 'treasure STILL hiding' in Great Pyramid voids

So in essence Hawass believes the KC is not Khufu's "real" burial chamber and the sarcophagus was never intended to inter a body. It's hidden somewhere else which Hawass believes may still be inside G1. 

I may be over-simplifying things here.  But the OK kings were believed to transition to the afterlife.  And if so, then an "empty" sarcophagus could be a demonstration that the OK king had indeed made that transition to the afterlife.   

[Harte]

12 hours ago, atalante said:

I may be over-simplifying things here.  But the OK kings were believed to transition to the afterlife.  And if so, then an "empty" sarcophagus could be a demonstration that the OK king had indeed made that transition to the afterlife.   

I can hear the tomb robbers cracking wise about this.

Harte

[Thanos5150]

20 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

From my reading he was the first to force his way in before the outta limestone case was removed. His people searched without success for an entrance and forced their way in. All documented by the Christian Bishop of the time and his engineers 

Yes, but as I said there are several reasons to believe this was not the case. The forced tunnel is directly below the entrance and just so happens to terminate exactly at the ascending passage junction. This is hardly "coincidence". 

The Greek Strabo 800yrs before Ma'mun wrote about the entrance and described it including entrance door down to the subterranean chamber. He says nothing of the upper chambers so apparently this was not breached in his day. It is unreasonable to think the entrance was just forgotten and become magically invisible again, not to mention every pyramid entrance in the center north side. 

Though not convenient for the removal of "treasure", the upper chambers are accessible through the well shaft. The Arab tale says that Ma'Mun's men were able to crawl under the portcullis stones to access the KC meaning the doors were not completely closed in his day. 

Ma'mun's tale certainly helps the case but have never included it because of these issues. 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Yes, but as I said there are several reasons to believe this was not the case. The forced tunnel is directly below the entrance and just so happens to terminate exactly at the ascending passage junction. This is hardly "coincidence". 

The Greek Strabo 800yrs before Ma'mun wrote about the entrance and described it including entrance door down to the subterranean chamber. He says nothing of the upper chambers so apparently this was not breached in his day. It is unreasonable to think the entrance was just forgotten and become magically invisible again, not to mention every pyramid entrance in the center north side. 

Though not convenient for the removal of "treasure", the upper chambers are accessible through the well shaft. The Arab tale says that Ma'Mun's men were able to crawl under the portcullis stones to access the KC meaning the doors were not completely closed in his day. 

Ma'mun's tale certainly helps the case but have never included it because of these issues. 

I’m confused. What is your motivation for this thread? 

[Unusual Tournament]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:06 AM, Thanos5150 said:

An article quoting Hawass RE the Scans Pyramid Project voids:  Egypt breakthrough: Archaeologist claimed 'treasure STILL hiding' in Great Pyramid voids

So in essence Hawass believes the KC is not Khufu's "real" burial chamber and the sarcophagus was never intended to inter a body. It's hidden somewhere else which Hawass believes may still be inside G1. 

I think Hawass is correct. The Kings Chamber hasn’t the dimensions or the ascetics to match the grandeur of the Pyramid. It’s a rues. If the Pyramid was a test place for a King the tomb must be somewhere else in the structure OR underneath the pyramid itself. 

[Wepwawet]

1 hour ago, Unusual Tournament said:

I think Hawass is correct. The Kings Chamber hasn’t the dimensions or the ascetics to match the grandeur of the Pyramid. It’s a rues. If the Pyramid was a test place for a King the tomb must be somewhere else in the structure OR underneath the pyramid itself. 

And we have two interesting options. There's Houdin's theory that the burial chamber is next to the King's Chamber, and approximately where this large void has been found by the scans. There is also the idea that the burial chamber is hidden under the floor of the Queen's Chamber. Hawass is refering to this possibility.

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Wepwawet

[Trelane]

Is the exploration of these voids outside the realm of possibility? Or would it cause significant irreparable damage to the structure's interior?

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Trelane said:

Is the exploration of these voids outside the realm of possibility? Or would it cause significant irreparable damage to the structure's interior?

Hi Trelane

Have wondered the same thing as drilling a small hole to push a cable cam through doesn’t seem to me as being all that destructive, It is a heritage site so that may be the main issue but drilling a hole in stone isn’t like they are tearing things up to any degree.

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

I’m confused. What is your motivation for this thread? 

Excuse me? What is confusing you exactly? 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Unusual Tournament]

16 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Excuse me? What is confusing you exactly? 

what do you think the pyramid are? Where do you think the kings that built them are buried? 

[Wepwawet]

11 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Trelane

Have wondered the same thing as drilling a small hole to push a cable cam through doesn’t seem to me as being all that destructive, It is a heritage site so that may be the main issue but drilling a hole in stone isn’t like they are tearing things up to any degree.

I would think that after the depredations G1 has suffered over the years, like being dynamited, drilling small exploratory holes is not going to be an issue. Maybe it's a case of inertia and a desire to be absolutely sure it would be worth drilling, and into the right place. The scans are too vague at this time.

On the other hand, that block in the wall of the KIng's Chamber by the sarcophagus is screaming out for some attention, but, nothing. Same in KV62 where they could drill from the undecorated "treasury" right into the area behind the north wall of the burial chamber to see once and for all if there is a corridor there. Ah wait, they cannot drill as vibrations will collapse everything.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Wepwawet

[Thanos5150]

11 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

what do you think the pyramid are? Where do you think the kings that built them are buried? 

What does this have to do with the validity of Ma'mun's tale? I think your confusion comes from not being able to understand one being objective in the negative about a source despite the fact it fits the theory being argued. At face value Ma'mun's tale does support the idea pyramids were not tombs, but there are many flaws with it so I do not include it as an argument. 

A cenotaph. What a pyramid is to symbolize beyond that, though obviously something, we don't know. 

At the top of my list are they continued the early Dynastic practice of having two associated tombs, one each in Upper and Lower Egypt, with the northern one a cenotaph and the southern the actual tomb. If so, perhaps the site is at Thinis- the as yet undiscovered first capital of Egypt (which was active as a site through to at least the Late Period) thought to also have had an early Dynastic royal cemetery. If not then perhaps the actual tombs are hidden under the pyramid complex. 

[Thanos5150]

I thought I posted this here as well but apparently not:

Pyramid Texts and the Function of Pyramids:

The largest corpus of Pyramid Texts relate how after death the king ascends to the sky to take his place among the circumpolar stars-the "Imperishable Ones". This is where the idea of the purpose of the pyramids being "resurrection machines" comes from. Reading these relevant verses of the PT, however, it is interesting that the oldest, those of the 5th Dynasty king Unas, make no mention of a pyramid at all let alone as any kind of resurrection machine. Instead the means by which the pharaoh transcends to the stars is by way of a cosmic ladder.

390: Unas ascends on that ladder which his father Re has made for him.
Horus and Seth seize the arm of Unas and take him to the Duat Region.

468: To say the words:
"Hail to you, daughter of Anubis, she who stands at the windows (ptr.w) of the sky,
you friend of Thoth, she who stands at the two side rails of the ladder!
Open the way for Unas that he may pass!

472: To say the words:
"The ladder is tied together by Re before Osiris.
The ladder is tied together by Horus before his father Osiris, when he goes to his soul (ax).
One of them is on this side,
one of them is on that side,
while Unas is between them.

479: and you ascend, Unas, to the sky, (you) climb on it in this its name of ladder.
Heaven be given to Unas, earth be given to Unas, so said Atum.

If the pyramid were a part of this process, even just protecting the king's body, this is where it would be mentioned but it is not. Strange, no?

Things change a bit under the 6th Dynasty pharaoh Pepi I:

Should Pepi and his ka try to come, open your arms to him, open the
door of his gods. When he demands to go up to the sky, he goes up.

I have come as Parter. A Geb-offering that Atum has given: the installation of this pyramid and this god’s enclosure for Pepi and for his ka, and that this pyramid and this god’s enclosure be restricted to Pepi
and to his ka. This eye of Horus is clean: may it endure for them.

He who shall give his finger against this pyramid and this god’s enclosure of Pepi and of his ka, he has given his finger against Horus’s Enclosure in the Cool Waters. Nephthys shall traverse for him every place of his [father] Geb. His case has been heard by the Ennead and he has nothing, he has no house. He is one accursed, he is one who eats his own body.
________

226 [RECITATION. O, Big Ennead in Heliopolis! May you make this Nemtiemzaf Merenre be firm, may you make this pyramid be firm for the course of eternity as the name of Atum,14 foremost of the Big Ennead, is firm.

(repeated several times)

Some more under Pepi II:

RECITATION. Atum Beetle! You became high, as the hill; you rose as the benben in the Benben Enclosure in Heliopolis.48 You sneezed Shu and spat Tefnut.49 You put your arms around them as ka-arms so that your ka might be in them....

Ho, Atum! May you extend protection over this Pepi Neferkare, over this his pyramid and this work of Pepi Neferkare, and prevent anything bad from happening to it for the course of eternity, like you extended protection over Shu and Tefnut.

Ho, Big Ennead in Heliopolis—Atum, Shu, Tefnut, Geb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Seth, and Nephthys, Atum’s children! His heart was stretched for (you), his children, in your identity of the Nine Bows. Let there be none of you who will turn his back to Atum as he saves this Pepi Neferkare, as he saves this pyramid of Pepi Neferkare, as he saves this
his work from all the gods and from all the dead, as he prevents anything bad from happening to it for the course of eternity.

Ho, Horus! This Pepi Neferkare is Osiris, this pyramid of Pepi Neferkare and this his work are Osiris. Betake yourself to him and don’t be far from him in his identity of the pyramid. (Osiris), you have become very black in your identity of the Great Black One’s Enclosure. Thoth has put the gods under you, ferried in the dÿæ-enclosure and guided in the dmæë-enclosure.50

Horus, here is your father Osiris, in his identity of the Sovereign’s Enclosure. (Osiris), Horus has given you the gods: he has elevated them to you as reeds so that they may brighten your face in the White Palaces. 51

It then repeats this bit about the pyramid several times:

RECITATION. O, Big Ennead in Heliopolis! You will make Pepi Neferkare be firm as you make this pyramid of Pepi Neferkare and this his work be firm for the course of eternity as the name of Atum,52 foremost of the Big Ennead, is firm.

The last time a pyramid is mentioned is the PT of the Merenre (6th Dynasty):

Spell 225 (Pepi II’s Spell 359)

Atum, put your arms around Nemtiemzaf Merenre, around this work, around this pyramid, as ka-arms (stanza 2); This Nemtiemzaf Merenre is Osiris, this work is Osiris, this pyramid is Osiris (stanza 5)

So, Unas is the first to have the PT written in his pyramid but makes no mention of the pyramid-it is not part of this resurrection process. Unas's successor, Teti, makes no mention of a pyramid in any way and again refers to a ladder:

RECITATION. Teti has become clean on the hill of land on which the Sun has become clean. He shall set the stepladder and erect the ladder, while those of the west are grasping his arm.

Interestingly, while it is not until Pepi I we find any mention of pyramids, this is still not the means the king ascends to the sky but rather, again, the ladder:

[RECITATION]. When this Pepi goes up, Horus of the Duat will go up to the sky on the ladder;....

A ladder has been laid down for him and he will mount on it in its identity of that which mounts to the sky.

On and on it goes.

When we read the PT for ourselves, the pyramid has no purpose in this funerary process. It is not a "resurrection machine" which the first few pharaohs we find the PT they do not even mention pyramids at all. The means they get to the sky is a ladder, not a pyramid. And when they do mention the pyramid its function is ambiguous with Pepi at least giving us some idea that at least the pyramid, and its enclosure which seems equally important, is for the king and his ka though it purpose is not stated:

A Geb-offering that Atum has given: the installation of this pyramid and this god’s enclosure for Pepi and for his ka, and that this pyramid and this god’s enclosure be restricted to Pepi and to his ka.

And curiously he wants to make sure the pyramid and "this god's enclosure" is only for Pepi and his ka which we are left to wonder what this is supposed to mean exactly. In his time was he afraid of intrusive use of his pyramid?
 

A few other relevant comments:

"So why do you think the 'ladder" isn't the "pyramid"."

Thanos: 

Because they do not say it is and make it quite clear they are not one and the same. We are the ones making this imposition 5,000yrs after the fact but this is not what the DE say in the PT. In reality there are only a few unique references to a "pyramid" in the whole of the PT and it is quite clear not only is it not one and the same as the cosmic ladder but also that it had no part in the resurrection process. At best we are told in just one (6th Dynasty) instance that the pyramid is for the pharaoh and his ka which the pharaoh's greatest hope is nothing will happen to it and no one else will use it.

If it were a pyramid they would just say so and its not just the word "ladder" but a ladder that is explicitly described. Not to mention throughout DE history, at least from the time Osiris was invented in the 5th Dynasty, the ladder was the means in which Osiris travelled to the sky-not a pyramid.

 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

What does this have to do with the validity of Ma'mun's tale? I think your confusion comes from not being able to understand one being objective in the negative about a source despite the fact it fits the theory being argued. At face value Ma'mun's tale does support the idea pyramids were not tombs, but there are many flaws with it so I do not include it as an argument. 

A cenotaph. What a pyramid is to symbolize beyond that, though obviously something, we don't know. 

At the top of my list are they continued the early Dynastic practice of having two associated tombs, one each in Upper and Lower Egypt, with the northern one a cenotaph and the southern the actual tomb. If so, perhaps the site is at Thinis- the as yet undiscovered first capital of Egypt (which was active as a site through to at least the Late Period) thought to also have had an early Dynastic royal cemetery. If not then perhaps the actual tombs are hidden under the pyramid complex. 

So basically subtracting your snarky remark you agree with me the tombs are buried under the pyramids or in a yet to be location inside the pyramid. Which is exactly the premise of Ma’mun. His expedition is very well documented by the Christian Bishop at the time. 

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

So basically subtracting your snarky remark

Am I wrong? 

Quote

you agree with me the tombs are buried under the pyramids or in a yet to be location inside the pyramid.

You are posting for the first time on the 30th page. What is it I am supposed to be agreeing with you about? And what I said was:

At the top of my list are they continued the early Dynastic practice of having two associated tombs, one each in Upper and Lower Egypt, with the northern one a cenotaph and the southern the actual tomb. If so, perhaps the site is at Thinis- the as yet undiscovered first capital of Egypt (which was active as a site through to at least the Late Period) thought to also have had an early Dynastic royal cemetery. If not then perhaps the actual tombs are hidden under the pyramid complex. 

Quote

Which is exactly the premise of Ma’mun. His expedition is very well documented by the Christian Bishop at the time. 

You are in error. There was no "Christian Bishop" who "documented" this expedition at the the time. The oldest account was written as early as 950AD, at best more than a century later, by the Arab al-Mas'udi who does not even mention Ma'mun but rather credits the account to his father, Haroun al-Rashid, which he says among things when his men entered G1 they "...found a vessel filled with a thousand coins of the finest gold...". Medieval Arab gobbledygook. Al-Idisri, the next to tell the tale, does credit Ma'mun and says when they opened the sarcophagus they found a human remains. Another author of the period says:

"...those who went up there [inside G1] in the time of Ma'mun came to a small passage, containing the image of a man in green stone, which was taken out for examination before the Caliph; when it was opened a human body was discovered in golden armor, decorated with precious stones, and in his hand was a sword of inestimable value, and above his head a ruby the size of an egg, which shone like fire."

The account you are reffering to, I believe, is from the 13th century "Chronicon Ecclesiasticum of Bar-Hebraeus".  

And so on.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Thanos5150