Thanos5150 Posted February 5, 2023 Author #751 Share Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said: Am I wrong? You are posting for the first time on the 30th page. What is it I am supposed to be agreeing with you about? And what I said was: At the top of my list are they continued the early Dynastic practice of having two associated tombs, one each in Upper and Lower Egypt, with the northern one a cenotaph and the southern the actual tomb. If so, perhaps the site is at Thinis- the as yet undiscovered first capital of Egypt (which was active as a site through to at least the Late Period) thought to also have had an early Dynastic royal cemetery. If not then perhaps the actual tombs are hidden under the pyramid complex. You are in error. There was no "Christian Bishop" who "documented" this expedition at the the time. The oldest account was written as early as 950AD, at best more than a century later, by the Arab al-Mas'udi who does not even mention Ma'mun but rather credits the account to his father, Haroun al-Rashid, which he says among things when his men entered G1 they "...found a vessel filled with a thousand coins of the finest gold...". Medieval Arab gobbledygook. Al-Idisri, the next to tell the tale, does credit Ma'mun and says when they opened the sarcophagus they found a human remains. Another author of the period says: "...those who went up there [inside G1] in the time of Ma'mun came to a small passage, containing the image of a man in green stone, which was taken out for examination before the Caliph; when it was opened a human body was discovered in golden armor, decorated with precious stones, and in his hand was a sword of inestimable value, and above his head a ruby the size of an egg, which shone like fire." The account you are reffering to, I believe, is from the 13th century "Chronicon Ecclesiasticum of Bar-Hebraeus". And so on. Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 5, 2023 #752 Share Posted February 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: Am I wrong? You are posting for the first time on the 30th page. What is it I am supposed to be agreeing with you about? And what I said was: At the top of my list are they continued the early Dynastic practice of having two associated tombs, one each in Upper and Lower Egypt, with the northern one a cenotaph and the southern the actual tomb. If so, perhaps the site is at Thinis- the as yet undiscovered first capital of Egypt (which was active as a site through to at least the Late Period) thought to also have had an early Dynastic royal cemetery. If not then perhaps the actual tombs are hidden under the pyramid complex. You are in error. There was no "Christian Bishop" who "documented" this expedition at the the time. The oldest account was written as early as 950AD, at best more than a century later, by the Arab al-Mas'udi who does not even mention Ma'mun but rather credits the account to his father, Haroun al-Rashid, which he says among things when his men entered G1 they "...found a vessel filled with a thousand coins of the finest gold...". Medieval Arab gobbledygook. Al-Idisri, the next to tell the tale, does credit Ma'mun and says when they opened the sarcophagus they found a human remains. Another author of the period says: "...those who went up there [inside G1] in the time of Ma'mun came to a small passage, containing the image of a man in green stone, which was taken out for examination before the Caliph; when it was opened a human body was discovered in golden armor, decorated with precious stones, and in his hand was a sword of inestimable value, and above his head a ruby the size of an egg, which shone like fire." The account you are reffering to, I believe, is from the 13th century "Chronicon Ecclesiasticum of Bar-Hebraeus". And so on. No I’m sure there was a Christian Bishop. I’ll get back to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted February 5, 2023 #753 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) On 2/4/2023 at 9:59 AM, Thanos5150 said: ..... Reading these relevant verses of the PT, however, it is interesting that the oldest, those of the 5th Dynasty king Unas, make no mention of a pyramid at all let alone as any kind of resurrection machine. Instead the means by which the pharaoh transcends to the stars is by way of a cosmic ladder. If the pyramid were a part of this process, even just protecting the king's body, this is where it would be mentioned but it is not. Strange, no? Interestingly, while it is not until Pepi I we find any mention of pyramids, this is still not the means the king ascends to the sky but rather, again, the ladder: [RECITATION]. When this Pepi goes up, Horus of the Duat will go up to the sky on the ladder;.... A ladder has been laid down for him and he will mount on it in its identity of that which mounts to the sky. Thanos, I suspect this ladder-to-the-sky belongs at the far eastern side of the underworld Duat. In later times the beetle deity Khepri was presumed to raise the sun (and the deceased king) into the sky in the east, at dawn. Did this primitive Old Kingdom ladder-to-the-sky eventually evolve into a symbolical Khepri during the MK and NK? Edited February 5, 2023 by atalante Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 5, 2023 Author #754 Share Posted February 5, 2023 5 hours ago, atalante said: Thanos, I suspect this ladder-to-the-sky belongs at the far eastern side of the underworld Duat. In later times the beetle deity Khepri was presumed to raise the sun (and the deceased king) into the sky in the east, at dawn. Did this primitive Old Kingdom ladder-to-the-sky eventually evolve into a symbolical Khepri during the MK and NK? ....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 5, 2023 #755 Share Posted February 5, 2023 6 hours ago, atalante said: Thanos, I suspect this ladder-to-the-sky belongs at the far eastern side of the underworld Duat. In later times the beetle deity Khepri was presumed to raise the sun (and the deceased king) into the sky in the east, at dawn. Did this primitive Old Kingdom ladder-to-the-sky eventually evolve into a symbolical Khepri during the MK and NK? Probably not. The landscape of the Duat seems to have changed over the three thousand year history of their religion. And the ladder was simply for the king's ascension - he's associated with Osiris, who didn't have anything to do with the sun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 6, 2023 Author #756 Share Posted February 6, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kenemet said: The landscape of the Duat seems to have changed over the three thousand year history of their religion. 3000yrs? What evidence is there of a Duat prior to the 5th Dynasty (Pyramid Texts)? Edited February 6, 2023 by Thanos5150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted February 6, 2023 #757 Share Posted February 6, 2023 About ladders. While the word used in the PT is ladder, and ladders are depicted in later periods, the PT may not be referring to an actual ladder. The context in which an uniquivocal ladder is present is that of a ladder used by the ba to move between the burial chamber and the chapel, and further afield. This of course is applicable to a shaft tomb and not a pyramid as they have ramps, and besides, the ladders used by the ba are metaphorical. Parts of the PT may not in fact refer to a cosmological event, even if it seems they do, but to physical parts of the funeral proceedings. Recitation 304: Greetings, Anubis's daughter at the sky's looking, you whom Thoth endowed at the ladder's uprights Recitation 305: A ladder was tied together by Ra in front of Osiris, a ladder was tied together by Horus in front if his father Osiris when he went to his akh, one of them on one side and one of them on the other. Now I am between them. The daughter of Anubis is thought by Morenz to be a name for a funeral bier. The ladder may be the ropes used to pull the coffin to the tomb. The destination is the burial chamber, which is also a version of heaven, hence the stars on the ceiling of Unas's burial chamber, and the sign for the duat being a star does not go un-noticed. The coffin itself is a micro version of heaven. I do not doubt that in the confines of the corridors of a tomb, either pyramid or VoK type, the reality of manhandling the coffin did not reflect the description of the event, if that is what we have in parts of the PT. Now I'm not stating categorically that the two recitations I quote, and there are more, describe just a part of the mortuary proceedings and funeral procession, and they may not anyway, but could have that function combined with the cosmological aspect of the king's soul ascending. Heaven being both the burial chamber of the tomb and the actual heaven in the sky, or under the ground, or both as the Egyptians are vague, and ideas changed over time anyway. The pyramid, the light of the Sun made manifest in stone, being a microcosm of heaven combined with the primal mound, hence referrences to Atum. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted February 6, 2023 #758 Share Posted February 6, 2023 14 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: 3000yrs? What evidence is there of a Duat prior to the 5th Dynasty (Pyramid Texts)? I don't know about hard evidence but weren't there versions of the religions that also had elements or the idea of the Duat prior to the 5th dynasty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted February 6, 2023 #759 Share Posted February 6, 2023 (edited) The Duat appears in the PT, along with most of the pantheon. While the Duat does not seem to be referenced before the PT, it can I think be implied that the concept already existed. This is because the Duat in it's form in the PT is a reference to the heavens, or part thereof, and I'll quote from PT Recitation 216: As Orion has become encircled by the Duat but is clean and alive from the Akhet, as the Sothic one has become encircled by the Duat but is clean and alive from the Akhet, this Unis has become encircled by the Duat but is clean and alive from the Akhet. He has become akh for them, he has grown cool for them inside the arms of his father, inside the arms of Atum. Due to the complicated topography of the Duat we are more familiar with in the 18th Dynasty, we associate the Duat with the underwold, literally under the world, and the Egyptians also placed the Duat under the world, but as they were a complicated and contradictory people, we see that in the OK the Duat was also in the sky, and indeed can be located within the sky goddess Nut. However, this is never made explicit. The night juorney of Ra takes places within the body of Nut, meaning that it takes place in the sky, or not, because the night journey of Ra is also placed firmly in the Duat in the Netherworld Books. Nut, in the sky, is also in the Duat as it is from her that Ra is reborn at dawn. So, is the Duat in sky or under the earth? take your pick as either, according to the AE, is probably correct, and they would not be bothered by the contradictions. However, in the context of the discussion, while the Duat, and I think Nut, though not sure, do not appear before the PT, it would I think be stretching things to assume that the cosmology only appears shortly before Unas. How far back it goes is not known, and in there lays argument, 100 years, 200, to the 3rd Dynasty and the rise of Ra. It's like the origins of Osiris, nothing concrete until the PT, but it seems unlikely he emerged only in the Fifth Dynasty. Edited February 6, 2023 by Wepwawet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 7, 2023 Author #760 Share Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Trelane said: I don't know about hard evidence but weren't there versions of the religions that also had elements or the idea of the Duat prior to the 5th dynasty? There are many things unique to the 5th Dynasty, the appearance of Osiris being one of them. Obviously even since before Dynastic Egypt the AE had a belief in an afterlife but there is no direct evidence for the concept of the Duat before this time. Given it's advanced development when it does appear it can be inferred it existed prior in some form though this may only have been only several years to a few decades. Prior to the 5th Dynasty the DE had a belief one would cross over to a "place" after death", but whether or not that was related to the Duat no one knows though it is possible the Duat was derived from these earlier concepts. One of the main components of the Duat myth is RA travelling through the Duat each night on his barque which the boat burials of the 1st** and 4th Dynasty (Giza, G1 and G2) would appear to imply some form of this concept but no one knows for sure. In the 1st Dynasty there was a no RA and in some instances large caches of boats are found buried next to each other in multiple locations, veritable "fleets", which is its own mystery. The practice disappears at the end of the 1st Dynasty** until the short lived revival of the 4th Dynasty at Giza which is only seen at G1 (and one at of the satellite pyramids) and G2 and both have several boat pits each. G3 has none and the practice all but disappears again. The G1/G2 boats pits have their own story, but it is not unreasonable to assume they are there having something to do with RA and his journeys to the afterlife, but again, we do not know for sure, and even less if this afterlife had any direct relation to the later concepts of the Duat beyond the idea of an afterlife itself. ** Rows of boat graves (with boats) were found near the massive mud brick enclosure structure Shunet El Zebib attributed to the last pharaoh of the 2nd Dynasty Khasekhemwy. By extension these boats are attributed to him as well but this may not be the case and actually date to the 1st Dynasty which I think is most likely. I can explain why if interested (some flavor on this is found in the OP), but just wanted to make note of that as to why I cut it off at the 1st and not the 2nd. Edited February 7, 2023 by Thanos5150 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 7, 2023 #761 Share Posted February 7, 2023 3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: TIn the 1st Dynasty there was a no RA and in some instances large caches of boats are found buried next to each other in multiple locations, veritable "fleets", which is its own mystery. The practice disappears at the end of the 1st Dynasty** until the short lived revival of the 4th Dynasty at Giza which is only seen at G1 (and one at of the satellite pyramids) and G2 and both have several boat pits each. G3 has none and the practice all but disappears again. The G1/G2 boats pits have their own story, but it is not unreasonable to assume they are there having something to do with RA and his journeys to the afterlife, but again, we do not know for sure, and even less if this afterlife had any direct relation to the later concepts of the Duat beyond the idea of an afterlife itself. I recall reading about a holiday where the families had model barques built for their loved ones so that the deceased could sail to Abydos and take part in the great festivals there - however I don't know how old that festival was. Also, it occurs to me that we may be treating Egyptian religion as a single monolithic thing, when we know there are at least three different cosmogenies (and likely more.) Sort of like Christianity can roughly be divided into Catholicism and Protestantism and each of those have many subsects. Khufu could have followed one version of the religion and the others followed a different version. (I have no evidence for this; simply wonder about it.) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted February 7, 2023 #762 Share Posted February 7, 2023 17 hours ago, Wepwawet said: The Duat appears in the PT, along with most of the pantheon. While the Duat does not seem to be referenced before the PT, it can I think be implied that the concept already existed. This is because the Duat in it's form in the PT is a reference to the heavens, or part thereof, and I'll quote from PT Recitation 216: As Orion has become encircled by the Duat but is clean and alive from the Akhet, as the Sothic one has become encircled by the Duat but is clean and alive from the Akhet, this Unis has become encircled by the Duat but is clean and alive from the Akhet. He has become akh for them, he has grown cool for them inside the arms of his father, inside the arms of Atum. Wepwawet, I suspect your PT recitation 216 is discussing a heliacal rising of what modern astronomers call the "winter triangle", which includes 3 extremely bright stars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Triangle One of these triangle stars is the star we now call Sirius; and another one is in the modern constellation Orion. Egyptologists have written various proofs that Egypt's Sothic calendar was first adopted near 2780 BCE. (Ancient Egypt's name Sopdet meant, approximately, "triangle". https://www.behindthename.com/name/sopdet/submitted ) https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/File:Hubble_heic0206j.jpghttps://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/File:Hubble_heic0206j.jpg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted February 7, 2023 #763 Share Posted February 7, 2023 @atalante I would not be surprised if this is the case and we have layers of meaning to the PT. For all our terminology of underworld or netherworld, and while they were inconsistent and contradictory, they were often looking to the night sky for solutions to what hapens after death. A number of Coffin Texts are based on observations of the Moon, and of course the ever present Nut on the underside of coffin lids, at least from the MK onwards. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted February 7, 2023 #764 Share Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Kenemet said: I recall reading about a holiday where the families had model barques built for their loved ones so that the deceased could sail to Abydos and take part in the great festivals there - however I don't know how old that festival was. Also, it occurs to me that we may be treating Egyptian religion as a single monolithic thing, when we know there are at least three different cosmogenies (and likely more.) Sort of like Christianity can roughly be divided into Catholicism and Protestantism and each of those have many subsects. Khufu could have followed one version of the religion and the others followed a different version. (I have no evidence for this; simply wonder about it.) That's a very good observation about how we view their religion. Perhaps an explanation of how their religion functioned when it was so contradictory is to imagine a world where the original Christianity never fractured. By this I mean that Arianism and Gnosticism still occured, but was allowed under the one umbrela. Likewise the schism that created Orthodoxy v Catholicism did not split the Church, and likewise the Protestant Reformation. I suspect that the one item preventing the various branches of Christianity, and also Islam, from being united is that they all have a book, and dogma, which the Egyptians never did, and it worked for them, until their old gods were supplanted by the new one, with his book and dogma. About the Abydos festival for Osiris, and likely originating in festivals for his predecessors, probably Khenti-imentiu, but, just in my opinion, also Wepwawet who had a prominent role in these festivals, and he dates back to Narmer if that is he on top of one of the standards. I'll quote from David O'Connor, Abydos, 2009 Quote At Abydos he enjoyed an impressive, annually performed processional festival throughout the Middle Kingdom, which attaracted much national attention. Royal officials were sent to participate in the festival on the king's behalf, and since stelae from Abydos often celebrate the relationship between the individual commemorated and the festival, it seems likely that Egyptians came from all over Egypt to witness and participate in it. Thus Osiris' temple was a place of national pilgrimage, although some people did not travel but commissioned others to set up stelae in Abydos on their behalf. O'Connor further mentions a voyage made by the deceased to Abydos and Busiris, which while depicted on tomb walls might have been symbolic. So while O'Connor does not mention model boats taken to Abydos, as apossed to them being present in tombs, it may be the case that model boats were taken to Abydos, though I've not come across evidence. They did however take statues and set them up in "ka booths", and the small statue of Khufu, found at Abydos, may have been a ka statue to represent him at Abydos, though the small size indicates it would likely be from a later period, as an official ka statue of him would more likely be full sized and of far better quality. Edited February 7, 2023 by Wepwawet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 7, 2023 #765 Share Posted February 7, 2023 This discussion all sounds highly mystical and speculative to me. How can it be possible to know anything about the great pyramid builders by a book of incantation written centuries later? This book of incantation is highly contradictory but this is irrelevant since it is still incantation. We don't know anything about the builders like why or how they did it or what any part of their knowledge base included. They had boats but does this mean they understood Archimedes or the ancient magic kept them on the water? They described the hydraulic cycle but this hardly means they knew faster atoms went into the air and coalesced as rain. We have a vacuum of knowledge and into this we insert a book of incantation that didn't even exist in the great pyramid building age. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 7, 2023 #766 Share Posted February 7, 2023 1 minute ago, cladking said: We don't know anything about the builders like why or how they did it or what any part of their knowledge base included. Where are the dead kings? Assuming the pyramids were tombs does not magically make them to be tombs. This very book of incantation being parsed to try to locate the bodies specifically and repeatedly say the king IS the pyramid and they repeatedly suggest that the king ascended as smoke from a funeral pyre called an "iskn" right on top of the still being constructed pyramid. You can't find any dead pyramid building kings if all their mummies were burned and this is where we still stand: no dead kings are in evidence other than the pyramids. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 7, 2023 #767 Share Posted February 7, 2023 1 minute ago, cladking said: You can't find any dead pyramid building kings if all their mummies were burned and this is where we still stand: no dead kings are in evidence other than the pyramids. So where's Waldo? Look at my avatar and you can see a couple of them. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted February 8, 2023 #768 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Never thought they were tombs. So what purpose do you believe they served? I find It rather odd that there so much interest in used up flesh suits …”human remains found in woods near such and such” news stories that are not news at all and are of no concern 99.9999999% of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 8, 2023 #769 Share Posted February 8, 2023 They were built to remind Egyptians of the king by day and a star assigned to that king would remind them of him at night. We might call that a "cenotaph" or a "mnemonic" but these are abstractions and the builders didn't understand or use any abstractions. In their minds a man lived until he was forgotten and the pyramid was the king who lived forever in his new body, the pyramid and a star. G1 was also a "time capsule/ museum" among other things, but again these are partly abstractions. The pyramid as the "house of life" also preserved the ancient way of life by being a "time capsule/ museum". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 28, 2023 Author #770 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Journal of a route across India, through Egypt, to England, in the latter end of the year 1817, and the beginning of 1818 Quote This decision [that they were bovine bones discovered in the G2 sarcophagus], from such a good authority as that of Mr. Clift, naturally suggests the idea that the pyramids may not have been, as generally supposed, the burial-places of kings, but more probably those of the god Apis, venerated in their immediate vicinity-Memphis being the city of his residence. The authority upon which the notion of their being the tombs of the kings has been often doubted, so as to allow of many theories being formed respecting them, and when it is considered that it rested only on the communications of the priests of Egypt to Herodotus, (to whom they also stated that there were no chambers in the second pyramid, which has now, by being opened, proved the incorrectness of their assertions) it is still more weakened, and may even suggest a suspicion that they had themselves at that time, but a very imperfect and perhaps only a traditional account of these monuments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Hoenedge Posted March 1, 2023 #771 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Hoenedge Posted March 2, 2023 #772 Share Posted March 2, 2023 The Scan Pyramids Team was in full effect at today’s press conference. As per Reuters : Quote Egyptian antiquities officials announced on Thursday the discovery of a hidden nine metre-long corridor behind the main entrance of the Great Pyramid of Giza that they said could lead to further findings. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying squid Posted March 2, 2023 #773 Share Posted March 2, 2023 The Valley of the Kings was a great burial ground for the Pharaohs. After around 1500 B.C. the Pharaohs no longer built great pyramids in which to be buried. Instead, most of them were buried in tombs in the Valley of the Kings. Tomb at Valley of the Kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Hoenedge Posted March 2, 2023 #774 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Maybe one day the proof that the Giza Pyramids were tombs will be found in situ. There was also a claim that the 4th Pyramid had been found: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted March 2, 2023 Author #775 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) Great Pyramid Hidden Corridor Seen for First Time 30ft long 7ft wide. Precise characterization of a corridor-shaped structure in Khufu’s Pyramid by observation of cosmic-ray muons The game is afoot. Edited March 2, 2023 by Thanos5150 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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