Antigonos Posted February 3, 2024 #801 Share Posted February 3, 2024 (edited) On 1/30/2024 at 11:34 AM, Thanos5150 said: Par for the course. It will be very interesting either which way. So much energy is spent by arm chair debunkers railing against any notion pyramids are not tombs for all the wrong reasons, yet to read along in this thread we can see for ourselves this is not what is shown by the overwhelming majority of the evidence, and at least with not every pyramid, not even the consensus of Egyptology nor has it ever been. Yoshimura is very well respected Egyptologist who thinks Khufu is not buried in G1 and is going to excavate an area he believes might be the location. I am sure he has thought about it but if so, again, this may be where other pharaohs are buried as well. No matter what there is "something" to be found there so this will be cool no matter what. Definitely. How long has this thing been under the sand? Did the NK, Ptolemies or Romans know it was there? The MK wouldn’t have given a crap about digging out around Giza. Maybe it’s been buried since before the FIP? If they are tombs I know it’s not reasonable to expect them to be intact, but heck they’re still finding sealed and undisturbed tombs on the Giza plateau from the Fourth Dynasty so there’s always a slim chance I suppose. Either way whatever artifacts that remain will be invaluable. The structure’s context in relation to what’s around it is what I really want to know. Hopefully that won’t be too long in coming. It would be interesting if the structure itself or parts of it are found to originally predate the Fourth Dynasty the way some of the other tombs/graves do. It’s too bad the presence of earlier dynasties at Giza has been erased to the degree it has. Maybe they’ll discover the buried structure is done in palace facade! Nah not likely. But it’s fun to speculate. Edited February 3, 2024 by Antigonos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 3, 2024 Author #802 Share Posted February 3, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Antigonos said: Definitely. How long has this thing been under the sand? Did the NK, Ptolemies or Romans know it was there? The MK wouldn’t have given a crap about digging out around Giza. Maybe it’s been buried since before the FIP? If they are tombs I know it’s not reasonable to expect them to be intact, but heck they’re still finding sealed and undisturbed tombs on the Giza plateau from the Fourth Dynasty so there’s always a slim chance I suppose. Either way whatever artifacts that remain will be invaluable. The structure’s context in relation to what’s around it is what I really want to know. Hopefully that won’t be too long in coming. It would be interesting if the structure itself or parts of it are found to originally predate the Fourth Dynasty the way some of the other tombs/graves do. It’s too bad the presence of earlier dynasties at Giza has been erased to the degree it has. Maybe they’ll discover the buried structure is done in palace facade! Nah not likely. But it’s fun to speculate. Yeah, pretty crazy. Most from the MK onward were oblivious to the fact the Sphinx Temple was there, for example, particularly the Romans, so who knows. The hope would be for enough to be intact to clearly identify who they belong to or when. If they have reliefs on them in some areas like they are supposed to this would be awesome. Its possible it may predate the 4th Dynasty. The West Field was the location of a pre-Khufu cemetery that was wiped out to make room for the "new" one. That is definitely a big bummer. Most would have a radically different view of Giza if these structures were still standing like for example the massive 1st Dynasty serekh mastaba (mastaba V). Depending on what it actually is and when it was made, namely 4th Dynasty or earlier, I think it is very likely it would have some kind of palace facade element to it, even just sarcophagi, as this was no doubt the dominant funerary motif. Doesn't matter though because Hawass will just hide the "real" truth anyways. Edited February 3, 2024 by Thanos5150 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted February 5, 2024 #803 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) On 2/3/2024 at 2:19 AM, Thanos5150 said: Its possible it may predate the 4th Dynasty. The West Field was the location of a pre-Khufu cemetery that was wiped out to make room for the "new" one. That is definitely a big bummer. Most would have a radically different view of Giza if these structures were still standing like for example the massive 1st Dynasty serekh mastaba (mastaba V). Depending on what it actually is and when it was made, namely 4th Dynasty or earlier, I think it is very likely it would have some kind of palace facade element to it, even just sarcophagi, as this was no doubt the dominant funerary motif. Doesn't matter though because Hawass will just hide the "real" truth anyways. Of course he will, everyone knows that. Mastaba V… that’s really interesting, a large surviving First Dynasty tomb with subsidiary burials around it at Giza. I was under the impression that these were only found at Abydos and that only the First Dynasty rulers themselves had them… did other important individuals have them as well? How else to explain them here, IMO seemingly out of place at Giza. (Of course that’s going by what it’s like now, not then. Like you I’d kill to see Giza during the archaic period). As an aside, I find it a little surprising that Petrie never made a plan of the site. So a seal was found with Djet’s name on it… the mastaba itself hasn’t been actually attributed to him has it? I couldn’t find anything definitive regarding that. The subsidiary burials are throwing me off. If not for them I’d just assume it was the tomb of a high status individual from Djet’s reign and leave it at that. Something else I was thinking of, the Osiris shaft. The design of it is intriguing. So far as is known it’s a unique feature on the plateau but it wouldn’t surprise me if there are others still undiscovered in the area. The builders did it once, why not again? As I understand it nothing yet has been found in it that predates the NK, but I wouldn’t necessarily rule out it’s being repurposed at a later date if it’s location was always known, or later rediscovered. But if that were indeed the case I’d still expect some earlier traces from the OK to have survived there, so I’m not drawing any firm conclusions either way. Yet it’s apparently intentional proximity to G2, the Sphinx and the Khafre causeway are convincing for an OK provenance I do have to admit. I know there are some people who think this is the island tomb fed by Nile water which Khufu allegedly built mentioned by Herodotus, and when I first heard of its discovery I thought it may be too. But the more I’ve thought about it, the more skeptical I’ve become, especially if nothing else is ever found to change its NK dating. If Khufu’s tomb exists as Herodotus described it, it may still be out there somewhere. Just as a thought experiment I suggest the design of the later Osiris shaft was perhaps inspired by Khufu’s earlier one, in the same way that Alexander’s famous second tomb in Alexandria was likely architecturally inspired by the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus. Obviously a much greater time span separates the Egyptian structures than the Hellenistic ones, but I’d counter that notion with the fact that Giza’s a finite area whose topography was continually being dug up, changed and modified so it stands to reason there’s the possibility that the original island tomb may have been accidentally unearthed at some point. Having been explored, its layout undoubtedly would have impressed its hypothetical later discoverers enough to want to replicate it themselves. Now this presupposes that Khufu’s tomb was discovered (and probably plundered) by the NK if it’s design was known well enough to be replicated elsewhere, then afterwards eventually it would have been lost again. But I don’t expect Khufu’s tomb, if it’s ever found, to be intact anyway. In all likelihood it was found and trashed during the OK or FIP at the latest. Or the Osiris shaft is actually Khufu’s tomb as Herodotus stated to begin with, and nothing remains from his burial. Maybe there are a few surviving OK artifacts beyond sight and reach below the flooded section. Or Yoshimura’s been totally right all along. My head hurts. Edited February 5, 2024 by Antigonos 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted February 5, 2024 #804 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Antigonos said: Double post. Duh. Edited February 5, 2024 by Antigonos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 5, 2024 #805 Share Posted February 5, 2024 16 minutes ago, Antigonos said: Or the Osiris shaft is actually Khufu’s tomb as Herodotus stated to begin with, and nothing remains from his burial. Maybe there are a few surviving OK artifacts beyond sight and reach below the flooded section. I believe Herodotus is being misinterpreted. 17 minutes ago, Antigonos said: I know there are some people who think this is the island tomb fed by Nile water which Khufu allegedly built mentioned by Herodotus, and when I first heard of its discovery I thought it may be too. But the more I’ve thought about it, the more skeptical I’ve become, especially if nothing else is ever found to change its NK dating Dating an underground excavation is very tricky business. It's easy enough to date it to the last time it was cleaned. When Hawass cleaned it several years ago he said he believed it dated back to the 5th or 6th dynasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted February 5, 2024 #806 Share Posted February 5, 2024 1 hour ago, cladking said: I believe Herodotus is being misinterpreted. Of course you do, and I know exactly why. Not taking the bait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted February 5, 2024 #807 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, cladking said: Dating an underground excavation is very tricky business. It's easy enough to date it to the last time it was cleaned. When Hawass cleaned it several years ago he said he believed it dated back to the 5th or 6th dynasty. This would be the archaeology you’re always claiming never gets done by Egyptologists at Giza, of course. Interesting implications if true. Edited February 5, 2024 by Antigonos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 5, 2024 #808 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) On 2/3/2024 at 1:19 AM, Thanos5150 said: Yeah, pretty crazy. Most from the MK onward were oblivious to the fact the Sphinx Temple was there, for example, particularly the Romans, so who knows. I think that it's because Giza really wasn't terribly significant either in terms of claiming rulership or in terms of worship of national deities. Abydos was maintained since it was the site of the great Osirian festivals. Giza never has large ongoing festivals or anything else beyond the pharonic cults, pyramids, and the graveyards. Edited February 5, 2024 by Kenemet 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 5, 2024 #809 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Antigonos said: This would be the archaeology you’re always claiming never gets done by Egyptologists at Giza, of course. Interesting implications if true. Cleaning a big hole in the ground and dating it to the earliest thing found isn't really "archaeology" at all. Dating the stone, finding where the water comes from and where it goes, analyzing the dust floating on the water or the bubbles in it, microscopic stratigraphic analysis of the material in cracks, and doing chemical analyses on all of it would be archaeology. Egyptology does not systematically apply modern science to anything then they lament that they don't have blueprints for pyramid construction so we'll never know anything. 1 hour ago, Antigonos said: Of course you do, and I know exactly why. Possibly. The reason is that not only do people read Herodotus' words and see what they expect but I believe the priests who told Herodotus about ancient pyramids didn't understand the ancient writing themselves. Edited February 5, 2024 by cladking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 5, 2024 Author #810 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kenemet said: I think that it's because Giza really wasn't terribly significant either in terms of claiming rulership or in terms of worship of national deities. ...? Like actually didn't know it was there because it was buried under sand. What people do not realize is the Giza we see today is hardly how it actually was when excavations began in the 19th century. Enormous amounts of material have been removed/destroyed/eroded say for example like a massive Roman entry/staircase complex that went right over the top of the Sphinx temple leading to the feet of the Sphinx. Zivie-Coche: From there, a huge staircase with 30 steps nearly 40 feet wide descended, opening onto the temenos. To the north and the south, walls of unbaked brick bordered this access route [the stairs]. These constructions towered more than 30 feet above the Sphinx, and they were built over the roof of the so-called Sphinx temple. Go HERE. Scroll down about 75% to Tafel 4. That was what was there in front of the Sphinx covering the temple. Compare to today. All gone now like it never was. Edited February 5, 2024 by Thanos5150 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted February 5, 2024 #811 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 4 hours ago, Antigonos said: I know there are some people who think this is the island tomb fed by Nile water which Khufu allegedly built mentioned by Herodotus, and when I first heard of its discovery I thought it may be too. But the more I’ve thought about it, the more skeptical I’ve become, especially if nothing else is ever found to change its NK dating. If Khufu’s tomb exists as Herodotus described it, it may still be out there somewhere. Just as a thought experiment I suggest the design of the later Osiris shaft was perhaps inspired by Khufu’s earlier one, in the same way that Alexander’s famous second tomb in Alexandria was likely architecturally inspired by the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus. Obviously a much greater time span separates the Egyptian structures than the Hellenistic ones, but I’d counter that notion with the fact that Giza’s a finite area whose topography was continually being dug up, changed and modified so it stands to reason there’s the possibility that the original island tomb may have been accidentally unearthed at some point. Having been explored, its layout undoubtedly would have impressed its hypothetical later discoverers enough to want to replicate it themselves. Now this presupposes that Khufu’s tomb was discovered (and probably plundered) by the NK if it’s design was known well enough to be replicated elsewhere, then afterwards eventually it would have been lost again. But I don’t expect Khufu’s tomb, if it’s ever found, to be intact anyway. In all likelihood it was found and trashed during the OK or FIP at the latest. Here’s an additional thought: Perhaps this theoretical prototype for the Osiris shaft isn’t Khufu’s island tomb at Giza. What if the original concept predates Khufu, and its earliest construction is actually somewhere at Hermopolis? Thought to be the location of the “secret chambers of the Sanctuary of Thoth” which in the Westcar Papyrus tells us Khufu went looking for in order to “build something similar for his tomb”? Your suggestion that the Sanctuary, whatever it was, was already old in the Fourth Dynasty is a logical one IMO. Maybe Khufu succeeded, and Herodotus unwittingly confirmed the tale told in Djedi the Magician in his own Histories… much, much, much later. No archaeological evidence for any of this of course, and not very likely, just some fun speculation. Edited February 5, 2024 by Antigonos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 5, 2024 #812 Share Posted February 5, 2024 5 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: ...? Like actually didn't know it was there because it was buried under sand. What people do not realize is the Giza we see today is hardly how it actually was when excavations began in the 19th century. Enormous amounts of material have been removed/destroyed/eroded say for example like a massive Roman entry/staircase complex that went right over the top of the Sphinx temple leading to the feet of the Sphinx. Zivie-Coche: From there, a huge staircase with 30 steps nearly 40 feet wide descended, opening onto the temenos. To the north and the south, walls of unbaked brick bordered this access route [the stairs]. These constructions towered more than 30 feet above the Sphinx, and they were built over the roof of the so-called Sphinx temple. Go HERE. Scroll down about 75% to Tafel 4. That was what was there in front of the Sphinx covering the temple. Compare to today. All gone now like it never was. Others seem to have taken more of an interest in the Giza site than the Egyptians did. Was unaware of the Roman staircase (but then I'm more interested in votive bronzes and wands than I am in Giza.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 5, 2024 Author #813 Share Posted February 5, 2024 8 hours ago, Antigonos said: Of course he will, everyone knows that.Mastaba V… that’s really interesting, a large surviving First Dynasty tomb with subsidiary burials around it at Giza. I was under the impression that these were only found at Abydos and that only the First Dynasty rulers themselves had them… did other important individuals have them as well? How else to explain them here, IMO seemingly out of place at Giza. (Of course that’s going by what it’s like now, not then. Like you I’d kill to see Giza during the archaic period). As an aside, I find it a little surprising that Petrie never made a plan of the site. I think you mean Saqqara brother, but the answer is no regardless. The rub is it appears that none of them were for pharaohs. See HERE And here: The Lost Early Dynastic Cemetery of El-Reqaqna. Saqqara, Helwan, Tarkhan, Giza, Abu Roash, Naqada, and Naga ed-Deir all have 1st Dynasty serekh mastabas. For example, queen Neithotep rein or Hor-Aha (1st or 2nd pharaoh of Egypt), Naqada: Now completely gone. Quote So a seal was found with Djet’s name on it… the mastaba itself hasn’t been actually attributed to him has it? I couldn’t find anything definitive regarding that. The subsidiary burials are throwing me off. If not for them I’d just assume it was the tomb of a high status individual from Djet’s reign and leave it at that. No. Like the other 1st Dynasty pharaohs Djet's "real" tomb is apparently at Umm El-Q'aab. Who it belonged to no one knows. There were subsidiary burials of retainers around some (most?) of them as well including at least one early Dynastic one at Giza, Mastaba T, or "Covington's tomb", which has 56 burials. Quote Something else I was thinking of, the Osiris shaft. The design of it is intriguing. So far as is known it’s a unique feature on the plateau but it wouldn’t surprise me if there are others still undiscovered in the area. The builders did it once, why not again? As I understand it nothing yet has been found in it that predates the NK, but I wouldn’t necessarily rule out it’s being repurposed at a later date if it’s location was always known, or later rediscovered. But if that were indeed the case I’d still expect some earlier traces from the OK to have survived there, so I’m not drawing any firm conclusions either way. Yet it’s apparently intentional proximity to G2, the Sphinx and the Khafre causeway are convincing for an OK provenance I do have to admit. The oldest artifacts date to the 6th Dynasty. Hawass beleives it was first cut then then used again in the NK and in the Late Period. The Discovery of the Osiris Shaft at Giza. Quote I know there are some people who think this is the island tomb fed by Nile water which Khufu allegedly built mentioned by Herodotus, and when I first heard of its discovery I thought it may be too. Hawass is one of them. Quote But the more I’ve thought about it, the more skeptical I’ve become, especially if nothing else is ever found to change its NK dating. If Khufu’s tomb exists as Herodotus described it, it may still be out there somewhere. Just as a thought experiment I suggest the design of the later Osiris shaft was perhaps inspired by Khufu’s earlier one, in the same way that Alexander’s famous second tomb in Alexandria was likely architecturally inspired by the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus. Obviously a much greater time span separates the Egyptian structures than the Hellenistic ones, but I’d counter that notion with the fact that Giza’s a finite area whose topography was continually being dug up, changed and modified so it stands to reason there’s the possibility that the original island tomb may have been accidentally unearthed at some point. Having been explored, its layout undoubtedly would have impressed its hypothetical later discoverers enough to want to replicate it themselves. Now this presupposes that Khufu’s tomb was discovered (and probably plundered) by the NK if it’s design was known well enough to be replicated elsewhere, then afterwards eventually it would have been lost again. But I don’t expect Khufu’s tomb, if it’s ever found, to be intact anyway. In all likelihood it was found and trashed during the OK or FIP at the latest. Or the Osiris shaft is actually Khufu’s tomb as Herodotus stated to begin with, and nothing remains from his burial. Maybe there are a few surviving OK artifacts beyond sight and reach below the flooded section. Hawass thinks this is what Herodotus was describing but it was misidentified. Or maybe Yoshimura will discover something similar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 5, 2024 Author #814 Share Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Kenemet said: Others seem to have taken more of an interest in the Giza site than the Egyptians did. The Egyptians never stopped having an interest in it. Kind of hard to miss: Quote Was unaware of the Roman staircase (but then I'm more interested in votive bronzes and wands than I am in Giza.) .... Edited February 6, 2024 by Thanos5150 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted February 6, 2024 #815 Share Posted February 6, 2024 53 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said: I think you mean Saqqara brother, but the answer is no regardless. The rub is it appears that none of them were for pharaohs. See HERE And here: The Lost Early Dynastic Cemetery of El-Reqaqna. Saqqara, Helwan, Tarkhan, Giza, Abu Roash, Naqada, and Naga ed-Deir all have 1st Dynasty serekh mastabas. For example, queen Neithotep rein or Hor-Aha (1st or 2nd pharaoh of Egypt), Naqada: Now completely gone. No. Like the other 1st Dynasty pharaohs Djet's "real" tomb is apparently at Umm El-Q'aab. Who it belonged to no one knows. There were subsidiary burials of retainers around some (most?) of them as well including at least one early Dynastic one at Giza, Mastaba T, or "Covington's tomb", which has 56 burials. The oldest artifacts date to the 6th Dynasty. Hawass beleives it was first cut then then used again in the NK and in the Late Period. The Discovery of the Osiris Shaft at Giza. Hawass is one of them. Hawass thinks this is what Herodotus was describing but it was misidentified. Or maybe Yoshimura will discover something similar. I did mean Saqqara, thanks man. For some reason my brain went right to Abydos only when thinking about subsidiary burials. It obviously slipped my mind too that the serekh mastabas didn’t appear to be for royalty. I know better. Brain farts. I was just thrown off because I thought the implication was that Mastaba V was believed to have belonged to Djet because of the seal found there. Thanks for clearing that up. It’s endlessly interesting rereading your threads about these different locations where we find these 1st dynasty serekh mastabas. They give a good picture of the overall scale of the archaic kingdom. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 6, 2024 Author #816 Share Posted February 6, 2024 1 hour ago, Antigonos said: I did mean Saqqara, thanks man. For some reason my brain went right to Abydos only when thinking about subsidiary burials. It obviously slipped my mind too that the serekh mastabas didn’t appear to be for royalty. I know better. Brain farts. I was just thrown off because I thought the implication was that Mastaba V was believed to have belonged to Djet because of the seal found there. Thanks for clearing that up. No worries. I'm glad I wrote this stuff because I need to go back and remind myself sometimes too. Quote It’s endlessly interesting rereading your threads about these different locations where we find these 1st dynasty serekh mastabas. They give a good picture of the overall scale of the archaic kingdom. Not just the scale but the relative suddenness of it all. Very interesting indeed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 6, 2024 #817 Share Posted February 6, 2024 3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: The Egyptians never stopped having an interest in it. Kind of hard to miss: .... I don't think that the photos show that the Egyptians had an interest in them... rather the opposite. The whole site is being buried by the desert with no attempt to preserve it by the Egyptians. It was a source of tourist income but they didn't really give it much attention beyond that. Unlike Abydos and Karnak. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 6, 2024 Author #818 Share Posted February 6, 2024 12 hours ago, Kenemet said: I don't think that the photos show that the Egyptians had an interest in them... rather the opposite. The whole site is being buried by the desert with no attempt to preserve it by the Egyptians. It was a source of tourist income but they didn't really give it much attention beyond that. Unlike Abydos and Karnak. Its a photo and it shows that because of their grandeur anyone would have an interest in them. Regardless, a source of tourist income...? For say the NK and LP Egyptians who were quite active at Giza...? So Thutmose who "preserved" the Sphinx and was quite proud of it, did this to make money off of tourists? Or how about all the chapels and rest houses they built-for tourists? Or how about the reconstruction on the Isis temple in the LP (originally likely built in the NK)-a little extra cash? "Despite ruling over a thousand years after the pyramids were built, Tut and other kings of his Dynasty continued to visit and venerate the sacred site of Giza, building small chapels and rest houses, and setting up inscribed dedications to the Sphinx." Not sure what you are trying to say about Abydos (where at Abydos) and Karnak, which the latter was a continuously occupied temple complex, but Giza, as are all pyramid complexes, is a cemetery not a national mall. There are many factors they would not be maintained for 2,000+ years which is not to mean they were not "interested" in them which we can see they clearly were. And to the point of this sub conversation, they did not know the Sphinx Temple was there in the NK either even though they dug out and repaired the Sphinx, built retaining walls and chapels right there. Ergo we are hopeful there are still things that could be hidden and Yoshimura will find something interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsfall Posted February 9, 2024 #819 Share Posted February 9, 2024 Not to derail this thread but anybody heard of David Grohl an Egyptologist….I only mention it but I enjoy the mandalaband music and was unaware the Mr Grohl was the brains behind them….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 9, 2024 Author #820 Share Posted February 9, 2024 2 hours ago, Shadowsfall said: Not to derail this thread but anybody heard of David Grohl an Egyptologist….I only mention it but I enjoy the mandalaband music and was unaware the Mr Grohl was the brains behind them….. Probably not. Its David Rohl. Dave Grohl is Foo Fighters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsfall Posted February 9, 2024 #821 Share Posted February 9, 2024 2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: Probably not. It’s David Rohl. Dave Grohl is Foo Fighters. Course it is thanks Thanos ….dont mind the Foo Fighters either ….have you heard his music Thanos… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 9, 2024 Author #822 Share Posted February 9, 2024 7 hours ago, Shadowsfall said: Course it is thanks Thanos ….dont mind the Foo Fighters either ….have you heard his music Thanos… You're welcome. Gotta like the Foo. Read one of his books, but never heard his music. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 11, 2024 #823 Share Posted February 11, 2024 On 2/6/2024 at 11:00 AM, Thanos5150 said: Its a photo and it shows that because of their grandeur anyone would have an interest in them. Regardless, a source of tourist income...? For say the NK and LP Egyptians who were quite active at Giza...? So Thutmose who "preserved" the Sphinx and was quite proud of it, did this to make money off of tourists? He found it in poor shape and restored it (he says on the request in a dream of Horus)... as part of the legend he was using to "prove" he was the rightful heir to the kingdom. So not as a tourist trap but rather as a further proof of his (and his descendants') right to rule. The Egyptians weren't active at the site... otherwise it wouldn't have been buried so deeply by the sands. You can contrast this with Abydos, which was actively maintained because it held the Tomb of Osiris (cenotaph) and they had yearly festivals there. The deceased sometimes mentioned traveling to Abydos after death to participate in the festival -- unlike Giza. No one mentions a desire to travel there after death. So Giza wasn't terribly important. If it had been, the entire area would have been well maintained and possibly famous festivals associated with it. Quote And to the point of this sub conversation, they did not know the Sphinx Temple was there in the NK either even though they dug out and repaired the Sphinx, built retaining walls and chapels right there. Ergo we are hopeful there are still things that could be hidden and Yoshimura will find something interesting. I hope the Japanese team will find some interesting things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted February 11, 2024 Author #824 Share Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 13 hours ago, Kenemet said: He found it in poor shape and restored it (he says on the request in a dream of Horus)... as part of the legend he was using to "prove" he was the rightful heir to the kingdom. So not as a tourist trap but rather as a further proof of his (and his descendants') right to rule. The Egyptians weren't active at the site... otherwise it wouldn't have been buried so deeply by the sands. You can contrast this with Abydos, which was actively maintained because it held the Tomb of Osiris (cenotaph) and they had yearly festivals there. The deceased sometimes mentioned traveling to Abydos after death to participate in the festival -- unlike Giza. No one mentions a desire to travel there after death. So Giza wasn't terribly important. If it had been, the entire area would have been well maintained and possibly famous festivals associated with it. I hope the Japanese team will find some interesting things. This is what you quoted of me in this response: "Its a photo and it shows that because of their grandeur anyone would have an interest in them. Regardless, a source of tourist income...? For say the NK and LP Egyptians who were quite active at Giza...? So Thutmose who "preserved" the Sphinx and was quite proud of it, did this to make money off of tourists?" Compare to what I actually wrote: Quote Its a photo and it shows that because of their grandeur anyone would have an interest in them. Regardless, a source of tourist income...? For say the NK and LP Egyptians who were quite active at Giza...? So Thutmose who "preserved" the Sphinx and was quite proud of it, did this to make money off of tourists? Or how about all the chapels and rest houses they built-for tourists? Or how about the reconstruction on the Isis temple in the LP (originally likely built in the NK)-a little extra cash? Interesting that you take the time to edit out the part which contradicts your comments which includes the next two whole paragraphs: Quote "Despite ruling over a thousand years after the pyramids were built, Tut and other kings of his Dynasty continued to visit and venerate the sacred site of Giza, building small chapels and rest houses, and setting up inscribed dedications to the Sphinx." Not sure what you are trying to say about Abydos (where at Abydos) and Karnak, which the latter was a continuously occupied temple complex, but Giza, as are all pyramid complexes, is a cemetery not a national mall. There are many factors they would not be maintained for 2,000+ years which is not to mean they were not "interested" in them which we can see they clearly were. If someone didn't take the time to read my original post they would be none the wiser. Not cool and hardly the first time you have done this. Kind of an MO of yours. Edited February 11, 2024 by Thanos5150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted February 12, 2024 #825 Share Posted February 12, 2024 9 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: This is what you quoted of me in this response: "Its a photo and it shows that because of their grandeur anyone would have an interest in them. Regardless, a source of tourist income...? For say the NK and LP Egyptians who were quite active at Giza...? So Thutmose who "preserved" the Sphinx and was quite proud of it, did this to make money off of tourists?" Compare to what I actually wrote: Interesting that you take the time to edit out the part which contradicts your comments which includes the next two whole paragraphs: If someone didn't take the time to read my original post they would be none the wiser. Not cool and hardly the first time you have done this. Kind of an MO of yours. I'm rather skeptical of the idea that the NK and LP Egyptians were active at Giza -- while I am aware of chapels and rest houses (including Ramesses usurping Tut's rest house) it wasn't given the care and attention of other sites (Abydos) and the focus seems to be more on the Sphinx, but only in a fairly casual way and somewhat sporadically. There wasn't enough work to have pyramid towns built (as Khafre, Khufu, and Menkaure had built) and the NK activity seems more focused around the sphinx than the pyramids or anything else at the site. But even the sphinx doesn't seem to have been of major importance. Thutmose I's chapel was undoubtedly staffed by priests and supported by the crown, but that apparently didn't continue for long. If the area was being maintained, there would be no reason for the sphinx to complain he (the sphinx) had been neglected and Thutmose IV wouldn't have reported that he found it half buried by sand. While it was a convenient prophecy for Thutmose IV, subsequent pharaohs seemed to treat it with benign neglect. NB: Casual readers might enjoy Porter, Bertha and Moss, Rosalind L. B. Topographical Bibliography of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Texts, Reliefs, and Paintings. Volume III. Memphis. Part I. Abû Rawâsh to Abûṣîr. which lists finds made at Giza (not the most recent ones, however) and can be found in a convenient and searchable PDF at this location: http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/porter-moss_III_giza.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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