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If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?


Thanos5150

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On 2/6/2024 at 3:46 AM, Kenemet said:

I don't think that the photos show that the Egyptians had an interest in them... rather the opposite.  The whole site is being buried by the desert with no attempt to preserve it by the Egyptians.  It was a source of tourist income but they didn't really give it much attention beyond that. 

Unlike Abydos and Karnak.

While the festivals at Karnak are well known, Opet, Valley and New Year,  not least because they are depicted on various temple walls, and the Opet festival was recreated a few years ago to mark the completion of the refurbishment of the Avenue of Sphinxes, the festival at Abydos is less well known, but was perhaps of no less importancce to the AE. I'll quote from page 33 of the 2011 edition of "Abydos, Egypt's First Pharaohs and the cult of Osiris" by David O'Connor:

Quote

By the New Kingdom, regional as well as centrally located deities frequently made festival appearances during which their images were carried out of the temple and processed through the town or even further. This practice might go back to earlier times, as was certainly true in Osiris' case. At Abydos he enjoyed an impressive, annually performed processional festival throughout the Middle Kingdom, which attracted much national interest.

Further in the book, O'Connor discusses the route and composition of the festival at Abydos, which was led by the image of Wepwawet.

There were of course, as you well know, many festivals, some, like the festival for Bastet at Bubastis, possibly attracting hundreds of thousands of people, but there is, as far as I can see, not a single mention of a festival at Giza. New Kingdom pharaohs certainly paid attention to the Sphinx, but these come across as being more of a personal thing between the king and the god.

Edited by Wepwawet
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FFS, we know what happened to the Pharaohs.  In the period before the Persian invasion the Egyptian Priesthood went on a tomb looting spree, and used the money to enhance their  prestige, but failed to spend up on the military and were over-run.  The Pharaohs and their families all ended up stored in an underground warehouse.

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21 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

While the festivals at Karnak are well known, Opet, Valley and New Year,  not least because they are depicted on various temple walls, and the Opet festival was recreated a few years ago to mark the completion of the refurbishment of the Avenue of Sphinxes, the festival at Abydos is less well known, but was perhaps of no less importance to the AE.

A number of tomb inscriptions mention traveling to Abydos in the afterlife to see the festivals (in fact, one such entry is part of the exercises in Collier and Manley's book on learning hieroglyphics.)    John Taylor mentions this in several places in his book (Taylor, John H. Death and the afterlife in ancient Egypt. University of Chicago Press, 2001) noting the model boats that were placed in some tombs so the dead could conveniently sail to Abydos for the festival.

Jones adds (Jones, D. 1990. Model Boats from the Tomb of Tut’ankhamun.  Oxford: Griffith Institute)  “Numerous representations in tombs and temples of the New Kingdom depict papyriform boats […] in the context 
of funerary or religious ceremonies, and are shown being used as funerary boats to transport the deceased’s mummy across the river to the necropolis on the west bank, or as pilgrimage boats in which the deceased journeyed to the sacred sites of Abydos and Busiris”

 

...but I learned about it from the translation exercises and not from other sources.

 

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On 2/12/2024 at 5:50 AM, Alchopwn said:

FFS, we know what happened to the Pharaohs.  In the period before the Persian invasion the Egyptian Priesthood went on a tomb looting spree, and used the money to enhance their  prestige, but failed to spend up on the military and were over-run.  The Pharaohs and their families all ended up stored in an underground warehouse.

Read through the OP, Al. It discusses missing OK pharaohs, not what happened later to the NK pharaohs in the Valley of the Kings.

 

Edited by Antigonos
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On 2/10/2024 at 8:50 PM, Kenemet said:

I hope the Japanese team will find some interesting things.

 

 

May some of it be undisturbed as well, unlikely as that might be.

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On 2/12/2024 at 8:50 PM, Alchopwn said:

FFS, we know what happened to the Pharaohs.  In the period before the Persian invasion the Egyptian Priesthood went on a tomb looting spree, and used the money to enhance their  prestige, but failed to spend up on the military and were over-run.  The Pharaohs and their families all ended up stored in an underground warehouse.

lol probably not far from the truth.

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30 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

lol probably not far from the truth.

Uh… it IS the truth. For the New Kingdom and the Valley of the Kings. Books, remember?

Unfortunately the OP has to do with the Old Kingdom pharaohs before the Fifth Dynasty, not what Al discussed.

Didn’t read the OP, right? Or else your reading comprehension is trash. At least now it’s clear why you don’t learn anything from anyone here.

Lol.

Edited by Antigonos
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16 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Uh… it IS the truth. For the New Kingdom and the Valley of the Kings. Books, remember?

Unfortunately the OP has to do with the Old Kingdom pharaohs before the Fifth Dynasty, not what Al discussed.

Didn’t read the OP, right? Or else your reading comprehension is trash. At least now it’s clear why you don’t learn anything from anyone here.

.

Edited by The Puzzler
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On 2/5/2024 at 6:41 PM, Thanos5150 said:

 

Saqqara, Helwan, Tarkhan, Giza, Abu Roash, Naqada, and Naga ed-Deir all have 1st Dynasty serekh mastabas. 

For example, queen Neithotep rein or Hor-Aha (1st or 2nd pharaoh of Egypt), Naqada:

d41dbe3b57cb991b43275d6fe8262691.jpg

Now completely gone. 
 

Losing this one really hurts.

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59 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Uh… it IS the truth. For the New Kingdom and the Valley of the Kings. Books, remember?

Unfortunately the OP has to do with the Old Kingdom pharaohs before the Fifth Dynasty, not what Al discussed.

Didn’t read the OP, right? Or else your reading comprehension is trash. At least now it’s clear why you don’t learn anything from anyone here.

Lol.

Edit. Not worth my time.

Edited by The Puzzler
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41 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Losing this one really hurts.

It didn't take very long either. Mastaba V is gone too. 

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On 2/14/2024 at 2:47 AM, Antigonos said:

Uh… it IS the truth. For the New Kingdom and the Valley of the Kings. Books, remember?

Unfortunately the OP has to do with the Old Kingdom pharaohs before the Fifth Dynasty, not what Al discussed.

Didn’t read the OP, right? Or else your reading comprehension is trash. At least now it’s clear why you don’t learn anything from anyone here.

Lol.

Yeah, I don't recall Old Kingdom mummies being looted and dumped.  Rumor has it that they already had been, to supply more recent Pharaohs, from what I can remember.  Idk if that applies to the pyramids, but it certainly applies to the more modern Pharaohs, and likely applies to the Old Kingdom too. Did you know there was a Muslim organization devoted to looting Egyptian Tombs?  It was called Al-Majalibeen which might charitably be translated as the Guild of Seekers (of treasure).  The contempt with which the Muslims treated the remains of Ancient Egypt is one of the main reasons they are in such bad shape.  Given how ISIS treated the ruins of Palmyra, and the Taliban treated the Buddhas of Bamiyan, when a Muslim asks for the return of archaeological artifacts of their national heritage, remind them that they are religiously motivated vandals of such things, and then say "never again, your people cannot be trusted with their own legacy until they abandon their cult".

Edited by Alchopwn
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1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Yeah, I don't recall Old Kingdom mummies being looted and dumped.  Rumor has it that they already had been, to supply more recent Pharaohs, from what I can remember.  Idk if that applies to the pyramids, but it certainly applies to the more modern Pharaohs, and likely applies to the Old Kingdom too. Did you know there was a Muslim organization devoted to looting Egyptian Tombs?  It was called Al-Majalibeen which might charitably be translated as the Guild of Seekers (of treasure).  The contempt with which the Muslims treated the remains of Ancient Egypt is one of the main reasons they are in such bad shape.  Given how ISIS treated the ruins of Palmyra, and the Taliban treated the Buddhas of Bamiyan, when a Muslim asks for the return of archaeological artifacts of their national heritage, remind them that they are religiously motivated vandals of such things, and then say "never again, your people cannot be trusted with their own legacy until they abandon their cult".

Not to mention ISIS in Assyria destroying Nimrud and sections of Nineveh that hadn’t yet been touched by archaeology. Truly crimes against humanity.

Edited by Antigonos
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On 2/13/2024 at 11:43 AM, Thanos5150 said:

It didn't take very long either. Mastaba V is gone too. 

What really sucks is that these things survived for millennia only to be lost relatively recently by ignorance of the necessity of proper preservation methods and the inability to recognize the importance of future archaeological studies.

Edited by Antigonos
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12 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Not to mention ISIS in Assyria destroying Nimrud and sections of Nineveh that hadn’t yet been touched by archaeology. Truly crimes against humanity.

Cry emoji.

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On 2/14/2024 at 10:11 AM, Alchopwn said:

Yeah, I don't recall Old Kingdom mummies being looted and dumped. 

More likely IMHO (taking information from the trial manuscripts) the robbers simply burned the bodies to get at the gold (which would have been somewhat melted into "obscure gold bits" by the fire) and there aren't any mummies or treasures to be had.

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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

More likely IMHO (taking information from the trial manuscripts) the robbers simply burned the bodies to get at the gold (which would have been somewhat melted into "obscure gold bits" by the fire) and there aren't any mummies or treasures to be had.

This sounds improbable for myriad reasons.  

For all the robbers knew there would be all sorts of gems in the wrapper that would be destroyed in a fire.  Even gold would be lost in part because some would be in such tiny pieces.  Silver which was more valuable than gold wouldn't even melt.  They'd have to take any mummy outdoors to burn or it would suck all the oxygen out of the air and suffocate them.  If they are outdoors anyway they might as well just stand upwind and cut it apart with a knife.  

You are also presuming still that there were mummies of kings in the great pyramids at some time.  There exists no evidence that there were ever such things as kings and riches in any of the great pyramids.  Such data (microscopic  stratigraphy) has never even been performed because it is simply assumed that there must have been burials and treasures.  

It's hardly impossible you're right but in the absence of evidence any great pyramid was intended or used as a tomb, it does seem rather improbable.  

Edited by cladking
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I'd sooner think they broke them up, hauled the pieces away and rendered them. Besides being the easiest way to get at the goods, there's costly resins and unguents impregnated into the wrappings (and possibly the body itself) that would potentially be worthwhile boiling out and recovering if feasible, as well as the linen itself.

Edited by Oniomancer
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1 hour ago, cladking said:

This sounds improbable for myriad reasons.  

For all the robbers knew there would be all sorts of gems in the wrapper that would be destroyed in a fire.  Even gold would be lost in part because some would be in such tiny pieces.  Silver which was more valuable than gold wouldn't even melt.  They'd have to take any mummy outdoors to burn or it would suck all the oxygen out of the air and suffocate them.  If they are outdoors anyway they might as well just stand upwind and cut it apart with a knife.  

You are also presuming still that there were mummies of kings in the great pyramids at some time.  There exists no evidence that there were ever such things as kings and riches in any of the great pyramids.  Such data (microscopic  stratigraphy) has never even been performed because it is simply assumed that there must have been burials and treasures.  

It's hardly impossible you're right but in the absence of evidence any great pyramid was intended or used as a tomb, it does seem rather improbable.  

Actual records of the trials of grave robbers from ancient Egypt show that they did burn mummies to retrieve the gold and gems and that they didn't bother taking the bodies out of the tombs first.  https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1095/tomb-robbing-in-ancient-egypt/  (one article out of many.  There's several trial transcripts that are along the same time.  Note that the papyri mentions kings (in this article, one specific king) being found in pyramids.

Also... gems aren't that destructible.  Amber would be but it's not often used.  Same with pearls.  Turquoise needs a lot more heat and lapis even more so.  Agate might discolor but unless you drop it in water when it's hot, it isn't changed much by fire.  Burning's a lot faster than trying to paw through all the wrappings to find the more valuable items.

 

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1 hour ago, Oniomancer said:

I'd sooner think they broke them up, hauled the pieces away and rendered them. Besides being the easiest way to get at the goods, there's costly resins and unguents impregnated into the wrappings (and possibly the body itself) that would potentially be worthwhile boiling out and recovering if feasible, as well as the linen itself.

The resins aren't that retrievable.  And no, they didn't haul them away to render them.

Here (from archive.org) is the text of the tomb robbery manuscripts (multiple) and a search for "fire" will turn up references to them burning the mummies in the tomb and none to taking them apart and retrieving resins and unguents: https://archive.org/stream/THEGREATTOMBROBBERIESOFTHETWENTIETHEGYPTIANDYNASTY/THE GREAT TOMB ROBBERIES - OF T H E-TWENTIETH EGYPTIAN DYNASTY_djvu.txt

 

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On 2/15/2024 at 4:31 PM, Kenemet said:

Actual records of the trials of grave robbers from ancient Egypt show that they did burn mummies to retrieve the gold and gems and that they didn't bother taking the bodies out of the tombs first.  https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1095/tomb-robbing-in-ancient-egypt/  (one article out of many.  There's several trial transcripts that are along the same time.  Note that the papyri mentions kings (in this article, one specific king) being found in pyramids.

Also... gems aren't that destructible.  Amber would be but it's not often used.  Same with pearls.  Turquoise needs a lot more heat and lapis even more so.  Agate might discolor but unless you drop it in water when it's hot, it isn't changed much by fire.  Burning's a lot faster than trying to paw through all the wrappings to find the more valuable items.

 

A back of the envelope calculation shows a mere couple cubic foot of wood is all that is required to suck all the oxygen out of the king's chamber.  I doubt you could melt any gold with so little fuel and the fire would go out long before the air was gone.  There would certainly be nothing there to observe this.  Diamonds will vanish into "thin" air long before gold melts.  Turquoise is very heat sensitive.   Etc.  

I doubt the book of robbers is "wrong" per se but it is from a far later period than pyramid construction (~2750 BC) so is not relevant to any of the great pyramids.

Using a lamp or candle outdoors one could probably burn up a highly desiccated mummy and retrieve most valuables undamaged but without melting the gold.  However we still have no evidence the great pyramids were intended or used as tombs.  

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2 hours ago, cladking said:

A back of the envelope calculation shows a mere couple cubic foot of wood is all that is required to suck all the oxygen out of the king's chamber.  I doubt you could melt any gold with so little fuel and the fire would go out long before the air was gone.  There would certainly be nothing there to observe this.  Diamonds will vanish into "thin" air long before gold melts.  Turquoise is very heat sensitive.   Etc.  

I doubt the book of robbers is "wrong" per se but it is from a far later period than pyramid construction (~2750 BC) so is not relevant to any of the great pyramids.

Using a lamp or candle outdoors one could probably burn up a highly desiccated mummy and retrieve most valuables undamaged but without melting the gold.  However we still have no evidence the great pyramids were intended or used as tombs.  

That's kind of a 'bait and switch' there.  Either the robbers are right about how they got into big stone buildings with tiny chambers and how they got the gold out (more than one robbery account reports this same practice)... OR... you might want to rework your calculations.

And doing a handwavium with "well, of course they weren't 4th dynasty pyramids" doesn't work well.

 

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55 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

That's kind of a 'bait and switch' there.  Either the robbers are right about how they got into big stone buildings with tiny chambers and how they got the gold out (more than one robbery account reports this same practice)... OR... you might want to rework your calculations.

And doing a handwavium with "well, of course they weren't 4th dynasty pyramids" doesn't work well.

 

Why encourage his nonsense.

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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

That's kind of a 'bait and switch' there.  Either the robbers are right about how they got into big stone buildings with tiny chambers and how they got the gold out (more than one robbery account reports this same practice)... OR... you might want to rework your calculations.

And doing a handwavium with "well, of course they weren't 4th dynasty pyramids" doesn't work well.

Physics and math are not "handwaving".  

Perhaps the later little piles of rubble that were probably used as tombs had air channels through them allowing fires inside. Mostly you just need an air source and a chimney.   Maybe the papyri saying they made bonfires inside the pyramids are fiction.  

There are a lot of maybes here but the fact is you can not build a fire to roast mummies for their gold inside most tombs.  And if you could you might destroy any gems and you might miss the silver.  My guess is just as the referent for "pyramids" is being misinterpreted the means some robbers used in some instances is being misinterpreted.  

And still there is no evidence any great pyramid was used or intended as a tomb. 

Edited by cladking
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14 minutes ago, cladking said:

Perhaps the later little piles of rubble that were probably used as tombs had air channels through them allowing fires inside. Mostly you just need an air source and a chimney.   Maybe the papyri saying they made bonfires inside the pyramids are fiction.  

Even a well ventilated fire with a working chimney would quickly heat a room the size of the king's chamber to a temperature which could not be survived by humans.  It would have all the defining characteristics of an oven.  Heat comes out the top of an oven BECAUSE the flame requires a steady flow of fresh air.  Even with a chimney an oven gets hot.  

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