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If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?


Thanos5150

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1 hour ago, cladking said:

  The king rests in heaven.  

 

How much more clear could the builders be about where the body of the king is?

1559c. that N. may rest in heaven, as a mountain, as a support.

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28 minutes ago, cladking said:

How much more clear could the builders be about where the body of the king is?

1559c. that N. may rest in heaven, as a mountain, as a support.

Great. Brilliant. All makes perfect sense.,You’re a true genius. Happy now that you got it off your chest? Here’s a cookie.

Now take a hike already.

FFS.

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1 hour ago, cladking said:

How much more clear could the builders be about where the body of the king is?

1559c. that N. may rest in heaven, as a mountain, as a support.


Hey cladking, how ya doing? you still p!ssing people off here? 

ciao

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3 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


Hey cladking, how ya doing? you still p!ssing people off here? 

ciao

Not intentionally.  Most people have a very hard time having their most fundamental beliefs questioned.  I know I do.  

 

I'm doing OK but I still want scientific answers to answerable questions rather than opinion and best guesses.  I'm actually sorry my beliefs upset some people.   I believe the answers need to be timely and it's already been a very long time.  

 

How you doin'? 

 

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Perhaps a resolution to stop some of the bickering here would be if, @Saru, @cladking had his own thread, as you have just proposed for another poster in another part of the forum. This would allow cladking to put forward his ideas without disprupting other threads, meaning that threads such as this would not then be littered with petty insults, at least not as regards cladking... and if anybody wanted to take issue with him in his own thread, then it should be at their own peril if they want to insult him there.

Edited by Wepwawet
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6 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Perhaps a resolution to stop some of the bickering here would be if, @Saru, @cladking had his own thread, as you have just proposed for another poster in another part of the forum. This would allow cladking to put forward his ideas without disprupting other threads, meaning that threads such as this would not then be littered with petty insults, at least not as regards cladking... and if anybody wanted to take issue with him in his own thread, then it should be at their own peril if they want to insult him there.

@cladking - how does that sound ? What are your thoughts on starting (and sticking to) a thread dedicated to your own theories/ideas ?

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2 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Perhaps a resolution to stop some of the bickering here would be if, @Saru, @cladking had his own thread, as you have just proposed for another poster in another part of the forum. This would allow cladking to put forward his ideas without disprupting other threads, meaning that threads such as this would not then be littered with petty insults, at least not as regards cladking... and if anybody wanted to take issue with him in his own thread, then it should be at their own peril if they want to insult him there.

Petty people inspire petty reactions. He has a longstanding pattern of disrespectful behavior on this and other forums by highjacking threads and hobby horsing his PT nonsense rudely ignoring OPs every chance he gets. It’s precisely because people are tired of him endlessly repeating the same things that nobody goes into his threads, and that’s why he goes into other peoples’. He’s looking for attention, not constructive intelligent discourse, and you should  know that after all this time. He won’t confine his behavior to his own threads, the whole point is to manipulate others into giving him an excuse to spout his nonsense to them.

Nobody is reacting to him simply because they want to insult him, thank you very much.  The reactions he draws are not out of a vacuum. There is a well established history here and across other forums. Again, you know that very well as do others in your circle like Hanslune, Kenemet and Windowpane. I especially don’t remember you ever objecting whenever Hans has insulted him so I don’t know why this sudden indignation of yours has chosen to manifest itself at this particular point in time. The implication that people want to insult him for the sake of it is insulting in itself.  I have much better things to do than interact with this poster. It’s a waste of time and brain cells quite frankly. I would much rather be engaging in actual intellectual conversations about the subjects at hand. I’m objecting to his attempt to hijack the OP and this thread being used as a vehicle for him to continue harassing people with his usual nonsense. I know perfectly well that you understand what I’m saying. It’s rather ridiculous that this actually needs to be spelled out after all this time.

The ire that he draws is well earned and he brings it upon himself when all he has ever needed to do is examine his own behavior and change it for the sake of his fellow posters which he steadfastly refuses to do, and always has.

Your suggestion, in and of itself, is a reasonable one. But I guarantee you he will not accept it in good faith. He simply does not care.

Edited by Antigonos
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1 hour ago, Antigonos said:

so I don’t know why this sudden indignation of yours has chosen to manifest itself at this particular point in time

There's no indignation involved at all, simply an observation that cladking's interjections draw a certain ire, and I've offered a solution.

I'll also take this opportunity to point out that after you requested other posters stop engaging with cladking, for myself I did btw, you yourself then engaged with him, and on top of that call me out for being "insulting" for pointing out that cladking gets insulted, how very odd, in fact your entire post to me is somewhat hostile, which is also odd as I've never had a bad word with you. What's going on here.

Edited by Wepwawet
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Good. Now that that nonsense is out of the way…

Thanos, do you think it likely that there may be an as yet undiscovered tomb presence at Abydos related to the missing OK pharaohs, if only cenotaphs?

Edited by Antigonos
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2 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Good. Now that that nonsense is out of the way…

Thanos, do you think it likely that there may be an as yet undiscovered tomb presence at Abydos related to the missing OK pharaohs, if only cenotaphs?

Definitely possible though I think if so it is more likely near the as yet discovered Thinis. Hopefully they find it in our lifetime. 

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While still looking at depictions of the "pyramid apron" and seeing how they appear in context, I thought it might be a good idea to also make a list of pyramids to see how many out of the total number known are "anomalous", to us that is. By anomalous I mean how many pyramids have the same owner, and how many genuinely seem to have never been used as a tomb, at least by the original owner, so discounting later intrusive burials. Then, if I get this done, the number of anomalous pyramids can be held up against a list of pyramids which were used as a tomb for the builder. Then, when the percentages are known, we could then decide if the number of anomalous pyramids is sufficient to suggest in general terms that "pyramids are not tombs", or if this statement can be changed to something like, "Pyramids in their inception are tombs, but some were not used as such by the original owner".

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12 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

While still looking at depictions of the "pyramid apron" and seeing how they appear in context, I thought it might be a good idea to also make a list of pyramids to see how many out of the total number known are "anomalous", to us that is. By anomalous I mean how many pyramids have the same owner, and how many genuinely seem to have never been used as a tomb, at least by the original owner, so discounting later intrusive burials. Then, if I get this done, the number of anomalous pyramids can be held up against a list of pyramids which were used as a tomb for the builder. Then, when the percentages are known, we could then decide if the number of anomalous pyramids is sufficient to suggest in general terms that "pyramids are not tombs", or if this statement can be changed to something like, "Pyramids in their inception are tombs, but some were not used as such by the original owner".

I remember reading about the smallest pyramids that seemed to be used more as cenotaphs or markers -- here's one article to start off the collection: https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/seven-small-pyramids/

We have seen statues of Tut with the apron... this discussion (https://egyptmanchester.wordpress.com/2019/11/17/tutankhamuns-guardian-statues-symbolism-and-meaning/) shows the statue found in his tomb... so we'd have to look at context of where the aprons are shown.  We can add 5th dynasty Khainpu false door to the collection.  Have to look up the text to see what the Egyptians say about it for context.

(quote from that article: In Tutankhamun’s pair, one wears the nemes headdress and the other a khat bag-wig. The same head coverings also occur on the pair of statues of Ramesses I, although other statues are insufficiently preserved to know if this pattern was standard. The khat-wearing statue of Tutankhamun has a text on the kilt apron labelling it as: “The Perfect God… royal Ka-spirit of (the) Horakhty, (the) Osiris… Nebkheperura, justified”. This favours the interpretation of the statue(s) as a home for the royal Ka-spirit.)

Soooo... the representations aren't standardized (that Khainpu image isn't of anyone in a nemes or a khat.)

Edited by Kenemet
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12 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I remember reading about the smallest pyramids that seemed to be used more as cenotaphs or markers -- here's one article to start off the collection: https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/seven-small-pyramids/

We have seen statues of Tut with the apron... this discussion (https://egyptmanchester.wordpress.com/2019/11/17/tutankhamuns-guardian-statues-symbolism-and-meaning/) shows the statue found in his tomb... so we'd have to look at context of where the aprons are shown.  We can add 5th dynasty Khainpu false door to the collection.  Have to look up the text to see what the Egyptians say about it for context.

(quote from that article: In Tutankhamun’s pair, one wears the nemes headdress and the other a khat bag-wig. The same head coverings also occur on the pair of statues of Ramesses I, although other statues are insufficiently preserved to know if this pattern was standard. The khat-wearing statue of Tutankhamun has a text on the kilt apron labelling it as: “The Perfect God… royal Ka-spirit of (the) Horakhty, (the) Osiris… Nebkheperura, justified”. This favours the interpretation of the statue(s) as a home for the royal Ka-spirit.)

Soooo... the representations aren't standardized (that Khainpu image isn't of anyone in a nemes or a khat.)

What I see as the context for this kilt in the NK is that, as known, it was worn only by the king, and with the exceptions of "guardian/ka statues" it was worn by the king, either after death or still alive, when he interacted with a god, either by offering to the god or by being presented with something, usually life or a symbol of authority, by the god. In the OK the context is that as well as a ka statue, it was only worn by officials, and there is no specific type of official. I suspect that this OK "pyramid kilt" for officials transformed by the NK into what we see below, typical "full dress" for an NK official, in this case a man named Inerkhau. Why NK kings adopted the short "pyramid kilt/apron" when it was discarded by officials I have no idea, though clearly it had always been a symbol of authority.

In this image of Inerkhau I'll point out what posters here know, but some readers may not, is that the, I think robes is a better word than kilt, has the triangular front section shown as it would be seen from the front, even though Inerkhau is in profile to us. I might be wrong on this, but no matter what, we have OK officials wearing a triangular apron, at least when seen from the front, and then NK officials wearing this longer version, which I think, not too sure, did stick out when viewed in profile. The question, to be more ontopic, is did this "officials kilt" originate in those who had a "management" position in pyramid, or other tomb building, for myself I do not see this.

Edit: To add some complication, The OK tomb of Nebkhauhor shows male dancers wearing this "pyramid kilt". I cannot find a picture to link to, and the book the image is in is too big for my scanner.

63fbc5e069f2d16b49aebaf282e8fc4d.jpg

Edited by Wepwawet
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3 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Edit: To add some complication, The OK tomb of Nebkhauhor shows male dancers wearing this "pyramid kilt". I cannot find a picture to link to, and the book the image is in is too big for my scanner.

63fbc5e069f2d16b49aebaf282e8fc4d.jpg

Any chance you could take a picture of it with your phone and upload it?

We've got a lot of doc checkups this week, but I'll see what I can find as well.

Also... these are white, but I know some are colored... so there may have been a number of different forms of this.

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Any chance you could take a picture of it with your phone and upload it?

Found a better image where the kilts are more defined, this one from the mortuary chapel of Idu. Also these dancers are women dressed in male kilts. They appear to be Idu's daughters, the hieroglyphs to the right of each dancer just say "dancing"

 

20240226_162432.jpg

Edited by Wepwawet
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On 2/26/2024 at 9:32 AM, Wepwawet said:

Found a better image where the kilts are more defined, this one from the mortuary chapel of Idu. Also these dancers are women dressed in male kilts. They appear to be Idu's daughters, the hieroglyphs to the right of each dancer just say "dancing"

 

20240226_162432.jpg

Those ancient dancers' pyramid-clothing resemble this

shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcRa1vRuOdFRwW8T2VMwSPits8iHjcjaO4WV0Hc4rHOxlKSkfxHNFVigmn1ZsM290rorUa9BqMjnIhIsiJxUuhUh4JGlHFuYuOFCam08A20XbJsFwrSRlFwi

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That's funny because all I could think of when I saw it was the ballet scene from Top Secret.

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Found a picture of the dancers in Idu's tomb (note that it only shows a portion of the scene) :
20170228_132505.jpg

 

I found a bit of info about Idu at the old TourEgypt site: https://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/idut.htm
The Mastaba of Idu (Idut) is located in the Eastern Cemetery at Giza near Cairo, Egypt. In life, he was the Scribe of the Royal Documents in the presence of the king. He also held the title, "Tenant of the Pyramid of Pepi I" as well as "Inspector of the wab-priests of the Pyramids of Khufu and Khafre (Pyramid), during the reign of Pepi I. He lived during Egypt's 6th Dynasty. Numbered G 7102, it lies near the tomb of Qar, who is believed to have been either his father or son. It also has clear stylistic similarities to that tomb.

There's no comment on the dancers though he does list his sources

Edited by Kenemet
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13 hours ago, atalante said:

Those ancient dancers' pyramid-clothing resemble this

shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcRa1vRuOdFRwW8T2VMwSPits8iHjcjaO4WV0Hc4rHOxlKSkfxHNFVigmn1ZsM290rorUa9BqMjnIhIsiJxUuhUh4JGlHFuYuOFCam08A20XbJsFwrSRlFwi

In some depictions there is a sense that they are trying to show the movement of the clothes as well as the dancer, though in the example from Idu what they wear looks very rigid. Cannot yet find any explanation why female dancers are wearing a male officials kilt, even if they are his daughters, or at least one of them is, and she is the dancer at the far right named Bendjet

Edited by Wepwawet
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On 2/26/2024 at 11:58 AM, Wepwawet said:

What I see as the context for this kilt in the NK is that, as known, it was worn only by the king, and with the exceptions of "guardian/ka statues" it was worn by the king, either after death or still alive, when he interacted with a god, either by offering to the god or by being presented with something, usually life or a symbol of authority, by the god. In the OK the context is that as well as a ka statue, it was only worn by officials, and there is no specific type of official. I suspect that this OK "pyramid kilt" for officials transformed by the NK into what we see below, typical "full dress" for an NK official, in this case a man named Inerkhau. Why NK kings adopted the short "pyramid kilt/apron" when it was discarded by officials I have no idea, though clearly it had always been a symbol of authority.

In this image of Inerkhau I'll point out what posters here know, but some readers may not, is that the, I think robes is a better word than kilt, has the triangular front section shown as it would be seen from the front, even though Inerkhau is in profile to us. I might be wrong on this, but no matter what, we have OK officials wearing a triangular apron, at least when seen from the front, and then NK officials wearing this longer version, which I think, not too sure, did stick out when viewed in profile. The question, to be more ontopic, is did this "officials kilt" originate in those who had a "management" position in pyramid, or other tomb building, for myself I do not see this.

Edit: To add some complication, The OK tomb of Nebkhauhor shows male dancers wearing this "pyramid kilt". I cannot find a picture to link to, and the book the image is in is too big for my scanner.

63fbc5e069f2d16b49aebaf282e8fc4d.jpg

I'll ammend this post because that type of "kilt/robe" existed in the OK, though still only for officials, and it's just the short "pyramid kilt" they stopped wearing. This is from the tomb of Idu again. Is the one on the right just meant to be a longer version, or is it something different, looks like just a longer version for the "fuller figure" to me.

 

Untitled.jpg

Edited by Wepwawet
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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Found a picture of the dancers in Idu's tomb (note that it only shows a portion of the scene) :
20170228_132505.jpg

 

I found a bit of info about Idu at the old TourEgypt site: https://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/idut.htm
The Mastaba of Idu (Idut) is located in the Eastern Cemetery at Giza near Cairo, Egypt. In life, he was the Scribe of the Royal Documents in the presence of the king. He also held the title, "Tenant of the Pyramid of Pepi I" as well as "Inspector of the wab-priests of the Pyramids of Khufu and Khafre (Pyramid), during the reign of Pepi I. He lived during Egypt's 6th Dynasty. Numbered G 7102, it lies near the tomb of Qar, who is believed to have been either his father or son. It also has clear stylistic similarities to that tomb.

There's no comment on the dancers though he does list his sources

The first link is to a digitized presentation of the tombs of Qar and Idu, fantastic work here, and the entire site is a treasure trove including 3D models of coffins.

And we have the 1976 survey of the tombs by William Simpson here

Edited by Wepwawet
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2 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I'll ammend this post because that type of "kilt/robe" existed in the OK, though still only for officials, and it's just the short "pyramid kilt" they stopped wearing. This is from the tomb of Idu again. Is the one on the right just meant to be a longer version, or is it something different, looks like just a longer version for the "fuller figure" to me.

Well ...  

Quote

...  in visual representations, the elite are shown wearing their finest white linen. Large quantities of linen served as a status symbol. 35 The long kilt was commonly used in depictions of mature, successful officials, and kilt length is often differentiated between lower and higher status figures within tomb registers. 36 The long kilt also signaled a more leisurely lifestyle, since it would have hampered manual labor. 37 The fineness of elite linen is often demonstrated by its representation as unnaturalistically diaphanous, generally in the form of a long, fine overtop to a short kilt (Fig. 1), with decorative elements, such as pleating or a weft fringe (Fig. 2). 38 (Maitland [2018], "Dirt, Purity ... " 49.)

See in particular Fig 4: 

Quote

Khnumhotep II holding a fly-whisk and sitting on a low- backed chair on a reed mat before a table of offerings, attended by the “Keeper of Linen/Clothing,, tomb of Khnumhotep II, Beni Hassan.

(Khnumhotep II).

For a brief account of how such clothing might have been laundered and smoothed, see here, 90-1.

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I wonder if we should start a separate thread on the kilts.  I'm finding some examples but they're not really consistent and I'm not sure that all are associate with pyramids.

AFIK, none are worn by gods.

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10 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I wonder if we should start a separate thread on the kilts.  I'm finding some examples but they're not really consistent and I'm not sure that all are associate with pyramids.

AFIK, none are worn by gods.

I don't think they had anything to do with pyramids either, I cannot find a scrap of evidence for this other than the suggestion that if it looks like a duck it must be a duck. Not to sure it needs a thread as really just about everything that can be said, or linked to, about these kilts has already been done. Though questions remain of course, such as why female dancers are wearing this kilt, which sort of goes against a pyramid connection. Or continue in the thread where it was first raised by the starter of this thread, so maybe not so offtopic after all, and as so much with the AE is interconnected I don't think topics can be totally isolated from one another within reason as a full picture will not emerge.

Edited by Wepwawet
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