Megaro Posted May 19 #976 Share Posted May 19 The pictures and diagrams that have been posted in this thread by Wepwawet and Thanos5150 are simply marvelous in resolution and subject matter. Thanks to you both. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zod YinYang Posted May 19 #977 Share Posted May 19 18 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: To recap-in every other tomb scheme, mastabas, beginning with the outer entrance the interior is highly adorned with relief with only the burial chamber and entrance shaft bare. In pyramids, despite all having multiple passages and chambers etc in one form or another often without doubt unrelated to the burial chamber- they are still, with the exception of G3, all bare. To follow the standard tomb model and religious beliefs there is no reason for this if pyramids were meant as the actual tomb of the pharaoh in which we would expect the most celebrated of reliefs, not to mention sarcophagi, to be found. But no. All entrances were designed for the inflow of cataclysmic floodwaters. Chambers were designed to record the occurrence of the cataclysm - in some way (movement/raising of megalithic blocks, or floats, etc). Air shafts (if present) were used if the pyramid adopted an unpressurised design. The pyramid was intended to withstand 500m-1km high mega-tsunami, and to last around a dozen millennia - hopefully preserving its testimony. Its design is entirely sufficient to communicate its purpose and testimony (to sufficiently sapient members of h sapiens sapiens). Adornment and writing would be superfluous, easily erased, and unlikely to be intelligible even if it lasted a dozen millennia (given semantic mutation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 19 #978 Share Posted May 19 17 minutes ago, Zod YinYang said: Adornment and writing would be superfluous, easily erased, and unlikely to be intelligible even if it lasted a dozen millennia (given semantic mutation). Semantic mutation is something that happens in descriptive coding languages when programming. Not linguistics. Your misusing the term. Abstract ideas, such as in religion only change when they are intentionally changed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted May 19 #979 Share Posted May 19 2 hours ago, Zod YinYang said: All entrances were designed for the inflow of cataclysmic floodwaters. Chambers were designed to record the occurrence of the cataclysm - in some way (movement/raising of megalithic blocks, or floats, etc). Air shafts (if present) were used if the pyramid adopted an unpressurised design. The pyramid was intended to withstand 500m-1km high mega-tsunami, and to last around a dozen millennia - hopefully preserving its testimony. Its design is entirely sufficient to communicate its purpose and testimony (to sufficiently sapient members of h sapiens sapiens). Adornment and writing would be superfluous, easily erased, and unlikely to be intelligible even if it lasted a dozen millennia (given semantic mutation). Stop hobby horsing your stupid fan fiction. Start your own thread. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted May 22 #980 Share Posted May 22 Just a general question to anybody. Is there any evidence for the separation of the mortuary chapel from the tomb before the 18th Dynasty, when it became necessary due to royal tombs being hidden underground in the VoK. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted May 24 #981 Share Posted May 24 Mortuary Temples part 1 I will not be discussing decoration in this post, I will only be discussing the existance of mortuary temples for pyramids and whether they indicate a royal burial or not. Firstly some terminology. The terms "mortuary temple" and "mortuary chapel" are used, and at times terms like "entrance chapel" or "pyramid temple". As I will be dealing only with the tomb of a king then I will use the term mortuary temple to distuinguish it from the mortuary chapel of a commoner. The mortuary temple is generally a free standing structure, though often abutted to the pyramid, while the mortuary chapel is an integral part of the tomb, in the case of a mastaba, the "upper floor". Also, while worship can take place in a temple or chapel, both being names, for us, not the AE, for places or worship, the deceased king is now a god and as well as offerings being made at his mortuary temple, he is certainly worshipped. The question here is does the presence of a mortuary temple at the pyramid of a king indicate that the king is in fact buried here, and conversely, does the absence of a mortuary temple at the pyramid of a king indicate that he is not buried there. It would make life easier if none of the problematic pyramids had a mortuary temple with them, but they all do, every pyramid made for a king has a mortuary temple (Going by Verner), even if some are nearly as destroyed as their pyramid. This then allows the question to be raised that when a pyramid was not, could not, have been used for the burial of a king, then surely the mortuary temple is for "remote offering and worship" as the king's actual tomb is somewhere else, presumably hidden as they were in the VoK. Let's have a look at the situation in the New Kingdom with regard to mortuary temples, or in AE terms the "House of millions of years", personally I think that "House of Eternity" is better as that is what is implied. As the tombs were hidden in the VoK, then it would defeat the object of concealment if a House of Eternity were placed right by the tomb, so they were placed on the west bank of the Nile at Thebes on the edge of cultivation. Therefore the giving of offerings and worship of the deified king was accomplished remotely. That the ka could operate remotely is an established fact due to the "ka houses" found at Abydos, though to receive offerings at the tomb the ka would need to be there as well, and this multiplicity of manifestations was normal for the AE, all gods having millions of manifestations. Back to the pyramid age, and do we find a similar situation for any king with a separated tomb and mortuary temple. Well there is, but just the one that is clear cut, and I'll deal with this in part two. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted May 24 #982 Share Posted May 24 (edited) On 5/22/2024 at 10:12 AM, Wepwawet said: Just a general question to anybody. Is there any evidence for the separation of the mortuary chapel from the tomb before the 18th Dynasty, when it became necessary due to royal tombs being hidden underground in the VoK. There's this: https://www.ancient-egypt.org/history/old-kingdom/4th-dynasty/kheops/pyramid-complex-at-giza/mortuary-and-valley-temple.html ...they're slightly separated. How much distance were you thinking is involved in the "separation"? It appears that the chapel at Giza was separated by some distance but enclosed within the pyramid's retaining wall. Quote The funerary chapels that Snofru built to the east of his pyramids, was extended into a small, squarish Mortuary Temple. Unfortunately, this temple has been almost entirely destroyed over time, which makes it hard to identify the different elements that originally made up the temple. The general shape of the temple, however, does make it clear that this was just an intermediate monument between the funerary chapels of Snofru, and the traditional mortuary temple, as it would be defined just one generation later, during the reign of Khefren. They do note however that there isn't a sign of the ka doorway or of the ka statue itself. (additional info here https://www.ancient-egypt.org/history/old-kingdom/4th-dynasty/khefren/pyramid-complex-at-giza/khefrens-mortuary-and-valle.html - they cite Lehner's Complete Pyramids (circa 2013)) (checking for other examples) Edited May 24 by Kenemet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted May 24 #983 Share Posted May 24 36 minutes ago, Kenemet said: .they're slightly separated. How much distance were you thinking is involved in the "separation"? A good question, and I will address this in part two. 37 minutes ago, Kenemet said: They do note however that there isn't a sign of the ka doorway or of the ka statue itself. And this will also be addressed in a later post, though in short, these elements became less prominent, or vanished alltogether as time went by. It's part of a "contraction" of the sacred space that I guess culminates with the Tanis burials. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted June 20 #984 Share Posted June 20 On 5/24/2024 at 7:26 PM, Wepwawet said: And this will also be addressed in a later post This will be addressed in a new thread at some point. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 15 Author #985 Share Posted September 15 (edited) The Emptiness of Pyramid Sarcophagi Curious.... Edited September 15 by Thanos5150 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted September 15 #986 Share Posted September 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: The Emptiness of Pyramid Sarcophagi Curious.... “There appears to have been no standardized model for sarcophagi during the Old Kingdom.” What an understatement. The M17 coffer - “the oldest granite sarcophagus found in Egypt, exceptionally large and well crafted.” You’ve previously made a great case for two stage construction here, that it and the core of the mastaba date to earlier than the outside and the conversion attempt on the Meidum pyramid. Who was it originally made for and what is its actual relationship to the other mastabas further away? More and more questions. Some of these palace facade decorations are just gorgeous. I hate that we don’t have Menkaure’s to actually look at for ourselves. I suppose we should be grateful to at the very least have Vyse’s drawings. But again, questions! Why are the G1/G2 coffers lacking the palace facade when it was on G3’s? Why since supposedly Khafre built G2 after the death of his older brother Kawab, didn’t he take his idea and put his name on the G2 coffer? The extra security measures on the coffers, like the dovetails and pinholes, are interesting as are the methods used to lock their lids into place. It’s enlightening to understand the actual mechanics of these processes. Sekhemkhet’s sarcophagus is such an outlier for the time it’s difficult to know what to make of it at first glance. The choice of alabaster for construction is curious, it’s a beautiful piece of work. I don’t think we see another one until Seti I’s. Purely practical and aesthetic reasons for the change from granite or was there also a religious one? Did he just have a thing for alabaster? The whole unique vertical side door entrance/exit lid is beyond intriguing. As are the two different construction phases of the wall sealing off the burial chamber. I think the conclusions drawn by the presenter are the likely answers. There was a symbolic burial and a temporary burial enacted there, and the body was later retrieved and the permanent burial took place elsewhere. This also fits plausibly with the notion of why the G1/G2/G3 coffers were all found in good shape and intact, ie there was no looting in any of the Gizamids, and indeed there’s never been any evidence of regardless. Edited September 15 by Antigonos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted September 15 #987 Share Posted September 15 4 hours ago, Antigonos said: “There appears to have been no standardized model for sarcophagi during the Old Kingdom.” What an understatement. The M17 coffer - “the oldest granite sarcophagus found in Egypt, exceptionally large and well crafted.” You’ve previously made a great case for two stage construction here, that it and the core of the mastaba date to earlier than the outside and the conversion attempt on the Meidum pyramid. Who was it originally made for and what is its actual relationship to the other mastabas further away? More and more questions. Some of these palace facade decorations are just gorgeous. I hate that we don’t have Menkaure’s to actually look at for ourselves. I suppose we should be grateful to at the very least have Vyse’s drawings. But again, questions! Why are the G1/G2 coffers lacking the palace facade when it was on G3’s? Why since supposedly Khafre built G2 after the death of his older brother Kawab, didn’t he take his idea and put his name on the G2 coffer? The extra security measures on the coffers, like the dovetails and pinholes, are interesting as are the methods used to lock their lids into place. It’s enlightening to understand the actual mechanics of these processes. Sekhemkhet’s sarcophagus is such an outlier for the time it’s difficult to know what to make of it at first glance. The choice of alabaster for construction is curious, it’s a beautiful piece of work. I don’t think we see another one until Seti I’s. Purely practical and aesthetic reasons for the change from granite or was there also a religious one? Did he just have a thing for alabaster? The whole unique vertical side door entrance/exit lid is beyond intriguing. As are the two different construction phases of the wall sealing off the burial chamber. I think the conclusions drawn by the presenter are the likely answers. There was a symbolic burial and a temporary burial enacted there, and the body was later retrieved and the permanent burial took place elsewhere. This also fits plausibly with the notion of why the G1/G2/G3 coffers were all found in good shape and intact, ie there was no looting in any of the Gizamids, and indeed there’s never been any evidence of regardless. Since we're speculating, I would speculate that it has to do with the amount of available time -- and personal tastes. Undoubtedly some of what they had were things that were the pharaoh's own funerary accoutrements that were created for him as a prince, not as a king. I'm not particularly convinced by the "temporary burial" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted September 15 #988 Share Posted September 15 On 5/19/2024 at 8:39 PM, Zod YinYang said: All entrances were designed for the inflow of cataclysmic floodwaters. Chambers were designed to record the occurrence of the cataclysm - in some way (movement/raising of megalithic blocks, or floats, etc). Air shafts (if present) were used if the pyramid adopted an unpressurised design. The pyramid was intended to withstand 500m-1km high mega-tsunami, and to last around a dozen millennia - hopefully preserving its testimony. Its design is entirely sufficient to communicate its purpose and testimony (to sufficiently sapient members of h sapiens sapiens). Adornment and writing would be superfluous, easily erased, and unlikely to be intelligible even if it lasted a dozen millennia (given semantic mutation). Are you saying that the pyramids were built as garages for riverine flooding? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 16 Author #989 Share Posted September 16 (edited) 7 hours ago, Antigonos said: “There appears to have been no standardized model for sarcophagi during the Old Kingdom.” What an understatement. The M17 coffer - “the oldest granite sarcophagus found in Egypt, exceptionally large and well crafted.” You’ve previously made a great case for two stage construction here, that it and the core of the mastaba date to earlier than the outside and the conversion attempt on the Meidum pyramid. Who was it originally made for and what is its actual relationship to the other mastabas further away? More and more questions. Indeed. Or how about Beit-Khallaf? Quote Some of these palace facade decorations are just gorgeous. I hate that we don’t have Menkaure’s to actually look at for ourselves. I suppose we should be grateful to at the very least have Vyse’s drawings. But again, questions! They are amazing. Much ado is is made over how they made the sarcophagi, but I think the ability to sculpt the palace facade building on them in relief is even more interesting. It would be interesting to see laser scan of this. Quote Why are the G1/G2 coffers lacking the palace facade when it was on G3’s? Why since supposedly Khafre built G2 after the death of his older brother Kawab, didn’t he take his idea and put his name on the G2 coffer? I think the outlier is Khafre which I suggest is because it is older dating to the same period as Khufu-M17. Quote The extra security measures on the coffers, like the dovetails and pinholes, are interesting as are the methods used to lock their lids into place. It’s enlightening to understand the actual mechanics of these processes. It is interesting. A valid observation from this guy is why go through this trouble given the effort the robbers would have expended just to get there if the pyramid were closed. Quote Sekhemkhet’s sarcophagus is such an outlier for the time it’s difficult to know what to make of it at first glance. The choice of alabaster for construction is curious, it’s a beautiful piece of work. I don’t think we see another one until Seti I’s. Purely practical and aesthetic reasons for the change from granite or was there also a religious one? Did he just have a thing for alabaster? The whole unique vertical side door entrance/exit lid is beyond intriguing. As are the two different construction phases of the wall sealing off the burial chamber. I think the conclusions drawn by the presenter are the likely answers. There was a symbolic burial and a temporary burial enacted there, and the body was later retrieved and the permanent burial took place elsewhere. This also fits plausibly with the notion of why the G1/G2/G3 coffers were all found in good shape and intact, ie there was no looting in any of the Gizamids, and indeed there’s never been any evidence of regardless. Unlike everyone else, when the pharaoh died he was eternal taking his place among the Imperishable Ones (circumpolar stars). If the pyramid was in fact the "machine" that facilitated this ascension, hence why the descending passages, ascending to the pharaoh, pointed at Thuban/circumpolar stars, placing the actual body inside would only have been required for as long as a time for this to happen and/or complete the ceremony. After the pharaoh had ascended, knowing the pyramid would be robbed someday but also to perpetuate the myth, the body was removed and buried elsewhere in secret to protect it. While these sarcophagi measures would be meaningless over time they may have been deemed necessary for the ceremonial period. Edited September 16 by Thanos5150 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokke Posted September 16 #990 Share Posted September 16 (edited) 17 hours ago, Antigonos said: Sekhemkhet’s sarcophagus is such an outlier for the time it’s difficult to know what to make of it at first glance. The choice of alabaster for construction is curious, it’s a beautiful piece of work. I don’t think we see another one until Seti I’s. Purely practical and aesthetic reasons for the change from granite or was there also a religious one? Did he just have a thing for alabaster? The whole unique vertical side door entrance/exit lid is beyond intriguing. As are the two different construction phases of the wall sealing off the burial chamber. I think the conclusions drawn by the presenter are the likely answers. There was a symbolic burial and a temporary burial enacted there, and the body was later retrieved and the permanent burial took place elsewhere. This also fits plausibly with the notion of why the G1/G2/G3 coffers were all found in good shape and intact, ie there was no looting in any of the Gizamids, and indeed there’s never been any evidence of regardless. Alabaster was the material of choice for canopic jars - and in this early experimental age, also the choice for the Tekenu tomb. Compare Sekhemhket´s "tomb" to that of Hetepheres. They are both "satellite tombs", i.e. Tekenu tombs. The only remnants that we would find from a bulls hide, filled with the efflux of a corpse, after 4.000 years - is a stain. And that is what was found in both. Sekhemkhet´s pyramid was never completed. It was decided that it would do as his Tekenu tomb - while his body was interred somewhere else. Hetepheres was buried in G1-a, and her "satellite tomb" is G7000-x. All burials consisted of two tombs - one for the body (and, eventually, the canopic jars), and one for the efflux (the Tekenu). One tomb for the Ba, and one tomb for the Ka. This means that there are more discoveries to be made on the Giza plateau: the Tekenu tombs of G1-b, G1-c, G3-b and G3-c. Edited September 16 by Stokke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokke Posted September 16 #991 Share Posted September 16 (edited) 10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: Unlike everyone else, when the pharaoh died he was eternal taking his place among the Imperishable Ones (circumpolar stars). If the pyramid was in fact the "machine" that facilitated this ascension, hence why the descending passages, ascending to the pharaoh, pointed at Thuban/circumpolar stars, placing the actual body inside would only have been required for as long as a time for this to happen and/or complete the ceremony. After the pharaoh had ascended, knowing the pyramid would be robbed someday but also to perpetuate the myth, the body was removed and buried elsewhere in secret to protect it. While these sarcophagi measures would be meaningless over time they may have been deemed necessary for the ceremonial period. Quote "When in Dyn. I stairs leading to burial chambers appeared (primarily only in the royal tombs and then in those of private persons as well), these were oriented north-wards, thus enabling the deceased to go forth directly toward the immortal stars". Bolshakov, 1997 Surely we can agree that, at the very least, all deceased persons - royal or not - that were equipped with a boat (actual or model) in their funerary goods, were believed to embark on a journey to the afterworld? Edited September 16 by Stokke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokke Posted September 16 #992 Share Posted September 16 43 minutes ago, Stokke said: This means that there are more discoveries to be made on the Giza plateau: the Tekenu tombs of G1-b, G1-c, G3-b and G3-c. Located somewhere between due South and due East of the respective main tomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 16 Author #993 Share Posted September 16 (edited) 4 hours ago, Stokke said: Surely we can agree that, at the very least, all deceased persons - royal or not - that were equipped with a boat (actual or model) in their funerary goods, were believed to embark on a journey to the afterworld? For the readers, in case you are wondering "Stokke" is Morten from GHMB who in his own words believes himself to be the only one in the world who understands satellite pyramids among other things and Egyptologists and anyone else who thinks differently are "wrong". For example (begins here): "Rigano finds it unlikely that G1-d was built first - because he, like the rest of the world - sans me, does not know the purpose of satellite pyramids." The readers will take caution that Morten does not distinguish his beliefs from actual facts and speaks of them in the affirmative all the same, so caveat emptor. Regardless, as discussed with you before: According to Funerary Boats and the and Boat Pits of the Old Kingdom, Hartwig Altenmuller: Quote The meaning of the boat graves of the Old Kingdom is still disputed. The different theories are succinctly presented by M.Verner in his article on the funerary boats of Neferirkara and Neferefra. The views differ depending on whether the ships are seen as "Solar Barques", as boats for use in the Other World, as transport ships for use during the king's funeral, or as state barques during the king's reign.... The main theory put forward by S. Hassan expresses that the ships buried by the pyramid are "Solar Barques". His comments however were not very convincing. Therefore his view did not find general acceptance. This concept of the "Solar Barque" does not definitively appear until the MK/NK with the Coffin Texts and Book of the Dead regardless. But please quote passages from the PT [never got a response]. The readers are reminded G3 has no boat pits nor did the associated tombs of the next three pharaohs that followed. About the models (from the same post): He's the pharaoh. Highly unlikely he would have wooden models like his mostly non-elite subordinates let alone go through the expense of building a pyramid complex and not make the prerequisite boat pits, one of the easier tasks all things considered, let alone not have them be part of the original plan. And has there ever been a royal wooden model boat found that depicts his journey in the afterlife instead of the mundane daily life depictions found in all the rest? And I would also note that even then such models were relatively rare among the elite until the 6th Dynasty when they became common place. Model boats have nothing to do with taking one to the afterlife and are depictions of daily life as they wished to have no differently in death. HERE So no, "surely" we cannot agree on these things. Edited September 16 by Thanos5150 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokke Posted September 16 #994 Share Posted September 16 1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said: So no, "surely" we cannot agree on these things. No problem. You do you. Yes, I am Morten from GHMB. This was never a secret - I had to find a new username on this site. Scott noticed straight away so you're a little slow. Also correct: I am the only person in the world who understands the purpose of the satellite pyramids. I tried to explain it all to you - but you are not listening. But ok Thanos.. give it a go - explain the satellite pyramids to us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted September 16 #995 Share Posted September 16 6 hours ago, Stokke said: Surely we can agree that, at the very least, all deceased persons - royal or not - that were equipped with a boat (actual or model) in their funerary goods, were believed to embark on a journey to the afterworld? Altenmuller (Altenmüller, Hartwig. "Funerary boats and boat pits of the Old Kingdom." Archiv orientální 70 (2002): 269-290. https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/1499/1/Altenmueller_Funerary_boats_2002.pdf) had one of the better takes on this, along with his discussion of the leading theories of 2002. The non-royal tombs (according to this paper) had two types of ships; a sailing one that traveled from north to south (he says this is similar to the Night Barque) and the rowing one that went from south to north (which is similar to the Day Barque.) He maintains that the boats are generally shown in convoy and are paired (sailing with rowing). The material in the non-royal tombs suggests that some boats could be used for travel between different places in the afterlife. He also applies this to the royal burials, -- but admits his idea falls short when considering the problem of the 5th boat. So... as per Altemuller, the specialized boats might be used for more than simply the journey to the afterlife. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokke Posted September 16 #996 Share Posted September 16 3 minutes ago, Kenemet said: He also applies this to the royal burials, -- but admits his idea falls short when considering the problem of the 5th boat. Yes! Khufu: Two boats going North - South, two boats going East - West (following the ba of Osiris). The fifth boat going north-north-east. To the fields of reeds! (the Ka of Osiris). This is not complicated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wepwawet Posted September 16 #997 Share Posted September 16 4 minutes ago, Kenemet said: So... as per Altemuller, the specialized boats might be used for more than simply the journey to the afterlife. There is the possibility, one that I've mentioned before, that a physical boat may not be needed. In KV 62, and I hear the gnashing of teeth for mentioning a tomb from the NK, oars were laid out around the sarcophagus. I think it reasonable to assume that they were there for a metaphysical boat, it not being possible to have boats buried in the VoK. There are no texts, to my knowledge, that ever mention, or even hint that oars were, or could be placed in the burial chamber of a king, yet there they were. Perhaps the ideal was for there to be a boat or two, but when it was not possible, or deemed not necessary in physical form, then they were represented in another fashion, in KV 62 by oars. I don't see the time difference between the NK and the OK to be an issue here as regards boats and afterlife beliefs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted September 16 #998 Share Posted September 16 3 hours ago, Stokke said: Yes! Khufu: Two boats going North - South, two boats going East - West (following the ba of Osiris). The fifth boat going north-north-east. To the fields of reeds! (the Ka of Osiris). This is not complicated! It might not be complicated to you, but this doesn't mean that the Egyptians did this. I think that Altenmuller's statement that the boat could have been a simple transport without a specific destination makes more sense. We see in later times specialty boats that took the deceased to Abydos so they could witness the Osirian rituals and for other festivals such as the Feast of the Beautiful Valley. Without further evidence, we really can't say, but Altenmuller had some decent arguments for his case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokke Posted September 17 #999 Share Posted September 17 5 hours ago, Wepwawet said: There is the possibility, one that I've mentioned before, that a physical boat may not be needed. In KV 62, and I hear the gnashing of teeth for mentioning a tomb from the NK, oars were laid out around the sarcophagus. I think it reasonable to assume that they were there for a metaphysical boat, it not being possible to have boats buried in the VoK. There are no texts, to my knowledge, that ever mention, or even hint that oars were, or could be placed in the burial chamber of a king, yet there they were. Perhaps the ideal was for there to be a boat or two, but when it was not possible, or deemed not necessary in physical form, then they were represented in another fashion, in KV 62 by oars. Yes, in the NK we find model boats in lieu of actual boats. Or, as you point out here, metaphysical boats. I don't see the time difference between the NK and the OK to be an issue here as regards boats and afterlife beliefs. I agree. The core afterlife beliefs never changed throughout Ancient Egyptian History. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djedi Posted September 17 #1000 Share Posted September 17 14 hours ago, Kenemet said: Altenmuller (Altenmüller, Hartwig. "Funerary boats and boat pits of the Old Kingdom." Archiv orientální 70 (2002): 269-290. https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/1499/1/Altenmueller_Funerary_boats_2002.pdf) had one of the better takes on this, along with his discussion of the leading theories of 2002. The non-royal tombs (according to this paper) had two types of ships; a sailing one that traveled from north to south (he says this is similar to the Night Barque) and the rowing one that went from south to north (which is similar to the Day Barque.) He maintains that the boats are generally shown in convoy and are paired (sailing with rowing). The material in the non-royal tombs suggests that some boats could be used for travel between different places in the afterlife. He also applies this to the royal burials, -- but admits his idea falls short when considering the problem of the 5th boat. So... as per Altemuller, the specialized boats might be used for more than simply the journey to the afterlife. Another interesting find are the possible remains of shrine containing a model boat (an oar of a model boat was found) found in the east chapel of the Seila Pyramid of Snefru. This is one of the so-called "seven provincial step pyramids", and the only one with significant remains of cult installations on north and east side. See Excavations at Seila and Ritual Ramifications by Kerry Muhlenstein page 64 (pdf can be found HERE) For a drawing of the possible roof slab of the boat shrine and a black and white photo of the oar, see pdf of Swelim "The Layer Monument of Snofru at Seila" HERE. Apparently there was a need to include at least one model boat in the cult of this pyramid although it wasn't a tomb. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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