If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

[Wepwawet]

Recitation 222 from the Pyramid Texts of Unas has this line:

"You go up and go down: you go down with Nephthys, one of the dusk with the Nightboat.

You go up and go down: you go up with Isis and rise up with the Dayboat."

Recitation 262 has this line:

"I have seen my cobra in the Nightboat: I am the one who rows in it. I have recognized the uraeus in the Dayboat: I am the one who bails it."

The Dayboat is of course the Solar Boat, and it and the Night Boat are referenced directly in other recitations. Sometimes they are refered to as "reed boats" but the context clearly shows they are the Day and Night boats. The texts as a whole are littered with references to rivers in the Duat, both under and above ground in the heavens, and to traversing these rivers. Rowers are mentioned, mooring is mentioned, it is difficult to get away from the fact that anything to do with rivers and boats was as important to them in the afterlife as it was in life. They, their civilization, would never had existed if it were not for the Nile, and they knew this, and referenced this all through the time their civilization existed.

Edited September 17 by Wepwawet

[Stokke]

4 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Recitation 222 from the Pyramid Texts of Unas has this line:

"You go up and go down: you go down with Nephthys, one of the dusk with the Nightboat.

You go up and go down: you go up with Isis and rise up with the Dayboat."

Recitation 262 has this line:

"I have seen my cobra in the Nightboat: I am the one who rows in it. I have recognized the uraeus in the Dayboat: I am the one who bails it."

The Dayboat is of course the Solar Boat, and it and the Night Boat are referenced directly in other recitations. Sometimes they are refered to as "reed boats" but the context clearly shows they are the Day and Night boats. The texts as a whole are littered with references to rivers in the Duat, both under and above ground in the heavens, and to traversing these rivers. Rowers are mentioned, mooring is mentioned, it is difficult to get away from the fact that anything to do with rivers and boats was as important to them in the afterlife as it was in life. They, their civilization, would never had existed if it were not for the Nile, and they knew this, and referenced this all through the time their civilization existed.

Yes, the constant references to boats and waterways in the PT, CT and Bod - and the fact that actual boats were included in the funerary equipment already long before the first Pyramid Texts - makes is clear that boats, actual or models, were included in the funeral equipment to facilitate the deceaseds journey to the Afterlife. 

The number of different types of model boats in some tombs, KV62 for instance, can make it difficult to determine what purpose they all served. It shall be very interesting to see what type Khufu's second ship is once they get it assembled.

 

Edited September 17 by Stokke

[Trelane]

21 hours ago, Stokke said:

No problem. You do you.

Yes, I am Morten from GHMB. This was never a secret - I had to find a new username on this site. Scott noticed straight away so you're a little slow.

Also correct: I am the only person in the world who understands the purpose of the satellite pyramids. I tried to explain it all to you - but you are not listening.

But ok Thanos.. give it a go - explain the satellite pyramids to us.

Sure buddy, sure.🤣

[Thanos5150]

23 hours ago, Stokke said:

[snip]

Quote

Also correct: I am the only person in the world who understands the purpose of the satellite pyramids. I tried to explain it all to you - but you are not listening.

Good grief. I hope there is a support group for tortured geniuses that if only people believed you they would see the truth you all can go to. 

Quote

But ok Thanos.. give it a go - explain the satellite pyramids to us.

Again:

According to Hawass:

Quote

The function of the [G1] Satellite Pyramid is not known and has been debated at length among scholars. The most frequently cited possible functions of the Satellite Pyramid are: a dummy tomb connected with the sed festival, burials for the king's ka, symbolic burials for the king as the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, burials of placentas, tombs for the viscera, solar symbols, temporary storage for the body,  and tombs for crowns.

Your certainty is unfounded and not shared by Egyptology at large. Forgive me if I go with Hawass on this one.

Hawass, for example of one such possibility, suggests its function was related to the sed festival:

Quote

The southern tomb of the Pyramid Complex of Djoser is a prototype of the Old Kingdom Satellite Pyramids. The reliefs on the panels in Djoser's southern tomb represent the king wearing the white Crown and running holding the flail. These scenes in the southern tomb can be interpreted as representations of the sed festival. Therefore I propose a new theory on the function of the Satellite Pyramid: that it was used as a changing room for the ritual of the sed festivaI.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Whatever it was for was quite superficial and obviously not meant to contain anything of particular value or permanence if they contained much of anything at all. 

Interesting to compare the stark differences between G1-d and the BP satellite pyramid attributed to Khufu's father.

The Satellite Pyramid of Dahshur

How do we reconcile the disparity between the two but also the fact G1-d (as do the boat pits) lies outside the temenos wall? 

 

Which further speaks again to Rigano's conclusion: 

“Whomever it was built for, the physical evidence leads us to the conclusion that GI-d was built during the reign of either Khafre or Menkaure and was not contemporary with the Great Pyramid.”

All we can be sure of, the rest of us at least, is G1-d was not for a burial and again as I would add unlikely to contain anything of value or permanence if it contained much of anything at all beyond a statue or the like and at the very least certainly not actual bodily components of the dead king. Hawass's theory is pretty slim and I note it just to show that Egyptologists really have no idea what it is for. 

 

Edited September 17 by Thanos5150

[Stokke]

Quote

Good grief. I hope there is a support group for tortured geniuses that if only people believed you they would see the truth you all can go to. 

There is no need for comments like this.

Quote

Your certainty is unfounded and not shared by Egyptology at large. Forgive me if I go with Hawass on this one.

Hawass, for example of one such possibility, suggests its function was related to the sed festival:

Correct. I am presenting a new theory - so of course it is not shared by Egyptology at large.

Hawass´ explanation is laughable. Changing room? Was the King supposed to unblock the massiv "sarcophagus" and change his clothes inside of that?

Quote

Whatever it was for was quite superficial and obviously not meant to contain anything of particular value or permanence if they contained much of anything at all. 

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but plugging stones still in situ in the satellite pyramid of the Bent Pyramid tells us that satellite pyramids most certainly contained something equal as important as the main tombs.

I suggest that satellite tombs were for the efflux that was drained from the body during the embalming procedure. The foul smelling liquid was seen as the culprit for death and could not be entombed together with the mummified body. I explained this in more detail elsewhere.

Quote

How do we reconcile the disparity between the two but also the fact G1-d (as do the boat pits) lies outside the temenos wall? 

There is no disparity between the two other than differences in design choice - they are both satellite tombs. Also, I am not aware of any rules stating that satellite pyramids and afterlife-boats must be located inside of the temenos wall.

Quote

“Whomever it was built for, the physical evidence leads us to the conclusion that GI-d was built during the reign of either Khafre or Menkaure and was not contemporary with the Great Pyramid.”

Rigano bases his conclusion solely on appearance.

While my theory is based on their religious beliefs/texts/iconography  - and it explains ALL subsidiary tombs. From Djoser to the "embalming caches" of the NK.

Quote

..it just to show that Egyptologists really have no idea what it is for. 

Ergo, I am the only person who understands the purpose of satellite pyramids.

Edited September 17 by Stokke

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

10 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Recitation 222 from the Pyramid Texts of Unas has this line:

"You go up and go down: you go down with Nephthys, one of the dusk with the Nightboat.

You go up and go down: you go up with Isis and rise up with the Dayboat."

Recitation 262 has this line:

"I have seen my cobra in the Nightboat: I am the one who rows in it. I have recognized the uraeus in the Dayboat: I am the one who bails it."

The Dayboat is of course the Solar Boat, and it and the Night Boat are referenced directly in other recitations. Sometimes they are refered to as "reed boats" but the context clearly shows they are the Day and Night boats. The texts as a whole are littered with references to rivers in the Duat, both under and above ground in the heavens, and to traversing these rivers. Rowers are mentioned, mooring is mentioned, it is difficult to get away from the fact that anything to do with rivers and boats was as important to them in the afterlife as it was in life. They, their civilization, would never had existed if it were not for the Nile, and they knew this, and referenced this all through the time their civilization existed.

Sounds kinky. Are we sure it’s not the Egyptian Karma Sutra?

[Wepwawet]

27 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Sounds kinky. Are we sure it’s not the Egyptian Karma Sutra?

If it was, then perhaps it was a Karma Sutra for one. If the 42 "negative confessions" are to be taken as sins, then there is one that is perhaps conspicuous by it's absence, the "sin of Onan". This had to be omitted because some important aspects of their religion, creation and some aspects of afterlife beliefs, involved this "sin".

[Thanos5150]

3 hours ago, Stokke said:

There is no need for comments like this.

Buy you are OK with comments like THESE. Worry about yourself first and the rest will take care of itself. 

Quote

Correct. I am presenting a new theory - so of course it is not shared by Egyptology at large.

"At large"? You mean at all.

With comments like this it is hard to take you seriously: "Also correct: I am the only person in the world who understands the purpose of the satellite pyramids. I tried to explain it all to you - but you are not listening."

Quote

Hawass´ explanation is laughable. Changing room? Was the King supposed to unblock the massiv "sarcophagus" and change his clothes inside of that?

"Hawass's theory is pretty slim and I note it just to show that Egyptologists really have no idea what it is for." 

 

Edited September 17 by Thanos5150

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, Stokke said:

There is no need for comments like this.

Correct. I am presenting a new theory - so of course it is not shared by Egyptology at large.

Hawass´ explanation is laughable. Changing room? Was the King supposed to unblock the massiv "sarcophagus" and change his clothes inside of that?

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but plugging stones still in situ in the satellite pyramid of the Bent Pyramid tells us that satellite pyramids most certainly contained something equal as important as the main tombs.

I suggest that satellite tombs were for the efflux that was drained from the body during the embalming procedure. The foul smelling liquid was seen as the culprit for death and could not be entombed together with the mummified body. I explained this in more detail elsewhere.

There is no disparity between the two other than differences in design choice - they are both satellite tombs. Also, I am not aware of any rules stating that satellite pyramids and afterlife-boats must be located inside of the temenos wall.

Rigano bases his conclusion solely on appearance.

While my theory is based on their religious beliefs/texts/iconography  - and it explains ALL subsidiary tombs. From Djoser to the "embalming caches" of the NK.

Ergo, I am the only person who understands the purpose of satellite pyramids.

Eh, even more effective argument is that it was intended as a temporary tomb for the pharaoh in case he died before that actual pyramid (or tomb) was finished.  That would better explain them, IMHO.

[Thanos5150]

6 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Buy you are OK with comments like THESE. Worry about yourself first and the rest will take care of itself. 

Should be "But". 

[Stokke]

9 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

"At large"? You mean at all.

I used "at large" because that was what you wrote. Yes, I mean "at all".

Quote

With comments like this it is hard to take you seriously: "Also correct: I am the only person in the world who understands the purpose of the satellite pyramids.

That is the nature of new theories - only the author understands them until other people have been presented with, and absorbed, all the arguments.

So my comment was not meant to come across as "flippant".

I have not concluded my thread "Satellite Pyramids explained" - more arguments will be presented in due time.

[Stokke]

Let us ponder some simple facts - with no interpretation by me:

1. In the funeral procession we find the Mummy, Canopic jars and the Tekenu.

2. In tombs we find the Mummy and Canopic jars - no Tekenu.

3. In TT20 we find a depiction of the Tekenu deposited in a separate tomb.

...

Egyptologists wonder what might be the purpose of subsidiary pyramids.

[Thanos5150]

5 hours ago, Stokke said:

That is the nature of new theories - only the author understands them until other people have been presented with, and absorbed, all the arguments.

No thanks. We all can read it for ourselves. And no, self absorbed delusions of grandeur are not the "nature of new theory", but rather the delusional nature of some of the people who present them. Whether you really believe it or are just wanting to gaslight readers to pay attention to you I am not sure, but most normal people do not say these things new theory or not.  

Quote

So my comment was not meant to come across as "flippant".

No one is saying it was which is what makes it all the more troubling as it is offensive. But unfortunately nothing we have not heard before. 

[Stokke]

25 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

No thanks. We all can read it for ourselves.

You can read my arguments before I present them?

Quote

And no, self absorbed delusions of grandeur are not the "nature of new theory", but rather the delusional nature of some of the people who present them.

I find Ad hominem arguments to be a waste of time. 

Quote

No one is saying it was which is what makes it all the more troubling as it is offensive.

I was explaining the intention behind my comment "I am the only person in the world who understands the purpose of the satellite pyramids" that you objected to.

Again, if you are not able to express yourself in a civil manner - feel free to ignore my posts.

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, Stokke said:

Let us ponder some simple facts - with no interpretation by me:

1. In the funeral procession we find the Mummy, Canopic jars and the Tekenu.

There is no evidence of a "Tekenu" until the Late 5th/Early 6th Dynasty, one instance (?), then a few times its found in the MK and is not seen again for several hundred years later until the NK where it is depicted in a gaggle of 13 mostly contemporary non-royal tombs at Thebes. Not one instance in its history is it found related to a pharaoh and certainly nothing to do with pyramids. The Tekenu is depicted as a blobulous™ sack with a human head pulled on a sled: 

Which again no one knows/can agree on what its purpose is and no evidence of an actual tekenu has been found.  

For anyone interested in the Tekenu:

The Tekenu and Ancient Egyptian Funerary Ritual

The Role and the Identity of the tknu in the Ancient Egyptian Funerals

Quote

2. In tombs we find the Mummy and Canopic jars - no Tekenu.

3. In TT20 we find a depiction of the Tekenu deposited in a separate tomb.

...

Egyptologists wonder what might be the purpose of subsidiary pyramids.

And there is your logic path. So to recap: despite the fact the tekenu does not appear until the beginning of the 6th Dynasty and other than a few instances in the MK is otherwise forgotten until the NK some 1000 years later where it appears in a whopping 13 non-royal tombs at Thebes, and has no association with pharaohs or pyramids, because one NK tomb supposedly depicts it being "deposited in a separate tomb" (pictures?), and no one knows what satellite pyramids built some 1000+ years earlier are for, voila-satellite pyramids are for the tekenu.  Is there any wonder why you are the "only person in the world who understands what satellite pyramids are for"...?     

Edited September 18 by Thanos5150

[Stokke]

46 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

The Tekenu and Ancient Egyptian Funerary Ritual

..because one NK tomb supposedly depicts it being "deposited in a separate tomb" (pictures?)

You will find the picture (vignette) on page 97 in this work.

I shall try to address your concerns tomorrow.

Quote

Is there any wonder why you are the "only person in the world who understands what satellite pyramids are for"...? 

Again with the personal remarks? I can not imagine what you think this will achieve? I can assure you that I am neither bothered nor impressed.

Edited September 18 by Stokke

[Stokke]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

There is no evidence of a "Tekenu" until the Late 5th/Early 6th Dynasty, one instance (?), then a few times its found in the MK and is not seen again for several hundred years later until the NK where it is depicted in a gaggle of 13 mostly contemporary non-royal tombs at Thebes.

There are a total of 46 confirmed attestations of the Tekenu - spanning the period from the Old Kingdom to the 26th Dynasty, but it seems to originate much earlier:

"The evidence suggests that that the origin of the Tekenu perhaps lies in a variety of ideological and iconic concepts including bovine ritual initiating in the Paleolithic period and continuing in the burial practices of the Neolithic period". - West, 2019.

Nevertheless, you are looking at this from the wrong angle. We have subsidiary tombs throughout Ancient Egyptian History from at least the reign of Djoser. His South Tomb, satellite pyramids in the Old- and Middle Kingdoms, and the Embalmer Caches of the New Kingdom and later.

Imagine, if you will, that you find yourself in the burial chamber of Khafre on your next holiday. While writing an insulting post about me on your phone, you trip and bump into the west wall. Three huge stones fall down and a mummy, inscribed with the name of Khafre, comes tumbling down after them. Congratulations, you are the hero of the day because you just proved that pyramids are tombs.

The discussion about wether pyramids were tombs or not would have ended. Khafre´s pyramid was a tomb, ergo, the pyramids of Khufu and Menkaure were also tombs.

We have got the same situation regarding subsidiary tombs. Given the longevity and consistency of their religious beliefs, it stand to reason that if we can determine the purpose of a single subsidiary tomb, then we can extrapolate that conclusion to all subsidiary tombs.

Only a fraction, if any, of tombs included the full corpus of religious texts and iconography - and only a tiny fraction of those have survived to this day. In fact, TT20 is the only place where we can see what happened to the actual Tekenu. Without TT20 we would probably never be able to unravel the mysteries of subsidiary tombs.

Quote

..and no one knows what satellite pyramids built some 1000+ years earlier are for..

Well, I clearly know.

Study TT20 and TT100 - and you might too.

 

 

[Thanos5150]

Varna Necropolis

Interesting the Varna Necropolis is largely comprised of cenotaphs. 

Edited September 28 by Thanos5150

[Windowpane]

On 9/28/2024 at 4:35 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Varna Necropolis

Interesting the Varna Necropolis is largely comprised of cenotaphs. 

I'm afraid the cenotaphs link isn't working ...

[Ell]

I am very much a lay person as regards Egyptology.

 

I wonder, undoubtedly nonsensical: Could the outsides of the pyramids have functioned as corpse exposure sites, as feeding places for vultures?

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

6 minutes ago, Ell said:

I am very much a lay person as regards Egyptology.

 

I wonder, undoubtedly nonsensical: Could the outsides of the pyramids have functioned as corpse exposure sites, as feeding places for vultures?

 

I dare say there’d be evidence (vulture scat for example, at the very least). 

[Thanos5150]

On 9/28/2024 at 8:35 AM, Thanos5150 said:

Varna Necropolis

Interesting the Varna Necropolis is largely comprised of cenotaphs. 

New link: cenotaphs

Its a paper about beads which is interesting but list all the tombs thought to be cenotaphs. 

Another interesting paper for those interested in the Varna culture: On the Invention of Gold Metallurgy: The Gold Objects from the Varna I Cemetery (Bulgaria)—Technological Consequence and Inventive Creativity

 

Edited September 29 by Thanos5150

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, Ell said:

I am very much a lay person as regards Egyptology.

 

I wonder, undoubtedly nonsensical: Could the outsides of the pyramids have functioned as corpse exposure sites, as feeding places for vultures?

 

No.

They were clad in smooth white limestone.  It'd take a lot of energy to haul the deceased up there.  Once they're on the sloping side, there's no place for the birds to land, and as the corpse decayed, body parts would roll down the pyramid and go splat at the bottom.

 

[Windowpane]

12 hours ago, Ell said:

I am very much a lay person as regards Egyptology.

 

I wonder, undoubtedly nonsensical: Could the outsides of the pyramids have functioned as corpse exposure sites, as feeding places for vultures?

 

What you're describing is generally known as "sky burial," of which there is evidence in such places as Tibet (and possibly elsewhere, IIRC).

The ancient Egyptians had a long history of mummification as a way of dealing with their dead (scroll down to "Egyptian mummies.")

(This is one example of many recent studies of the subject of funerary archaeology.)

[Windowpane]

7 hours ago, Kenemet said:

... as the corpse decayed, body parts would roll down the pyramid and go splat at the bottom.

 

How could the bloodstains have been removed from the limestone?

Would bicarb of soda and water have worked ... ?