Tomb locations of Khufu's family and nobles

[Hanslune]

In the Thanos thread on pyramid tombs we had a mention of two of Khufu's children being buried in the East Field. Since we have a more than a few smart people here I have a question for them (Harte you can answer too). Is there a map, diagram or database that shows where the tombs of the important/essential nobles and family members of Khufu are located? Does it exist in one place?

Thanks

 

So one daughter and son at 7120-7110 and 7420-7410

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Hanslune

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Since we have a more than a few smart people here I have a question for them (Harte you can answer too).

Uncle Harte I would answer in a limerick that would cause a Vogon's head to split open and eyeballs to explode.  

[Wepwawet]

Lehner and Hawass go into some detail on this in their Giza and the Pyramids, and give some names, where known, to a tomb, but the format is not suitable for replication here, and there is unfortunately no plan with a name alongside the tomb number. But surely somebody somewhere has done something like this ?

All I can add is G 7110-7120 for Kawab and Hetepheres II, G 7130-7140 for Khufukhaf and Neferetkau, G 7410-7420 Meresankh II and Horbaef?, G7310-7320 for Baufre, G 7430-7440 for Minkhaf and G 7510 for Ankh-haf.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Wepwawet

[Djedi]

On a website I made with two friends we added a list of tomb owners to a map taken from P&M, this can be seen here.

Hope this is usefull.

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, Djedi said:

On a website I made with two friends we added a list of tomb owners to a map taken from P&M, this can be seen here.

Hope this is usefull.

Yes it is I thought someone somewhere would have done that! Much appreciated

 

Now all we need is a Khufu family tree and a list of officials - if such exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Dynasty_of_Egypt_family_tree

Family tree

The following list presents family members, which can be assigned to Khufu with certainty.
Parents:^[9][15][16]

• Sneferu: Most possibly his father, maybe just stepfather. Famous pharaoh and builder of three pyramids.
• Hetepheres I: Most possibly his mother. Wife of king Sneferu and well known for her precious grave goods found at Giza.

 

Portrait of prince Rahotep.

 

Slab stela of princess Nefertiabet.

Spouses:

• Meritites I: First wife of Khufu.
• Henutsen: Second wife of Khufu. She is mentioned on the famous Inventory Stela.

Brothers and Sisters:

• Hetepheres: Wife of Ankhhaf.
• Ankhhaf: The eldest brother. His nephew would later become pharaoh Khafra.
• Nefermaat: Half-brother; buried at Meidum and owner of the famous "mastaba of the geese".
• Rahotep: Elder brother or half-brother. Owner of a life-size double statue portraying him and his wife Nofret.

Sons of Khufu:

• Kawab: Most possibly the eldest son and crown prince, he died before Khufu's own end of reign and thus did not follow Khufu on the throne.
• Djedefra: Also known as Radjedef and Ratoises. Became the first throne successor.
• Khafre: Most possibly second throne successor.
• Djedefhor: Also known as Hordjedef, mentioned in Papyrus Westcar.
• Baufra: Possibly a son of Khufu, but neither archaeologically nor contemporarily attested. Only known from two much later documents.
• Babaef I: Also known as Khnum-baef I.
• Khufukhaf I: Also known as Kaefkhufu I.
• Minkhaf I.
• Horbaef.

Daughters:

• Nefertiabet: Known for her beautiful slab stelae.
• Hetepheres II: Wife of prince Kawab, later married to pharaoh Djedefra.
• Meresankh II.
• Meritites II: Married to Akhethotep.
• Khamerernebty I: Wife of king Khafra and mother of Menkaura.

Grandchildren:

• Duaenhor: Son of Kawab and possibly eldest grandchild.
• Kaemsekhem: Second son of Kawab.
• Mindjedef: Also known as Djedefmin.
• Djaty: Son of Horbaef.
• Iunmin I: Son of Khafre.

Nephews and nieces:

• Hemiunu: Director of the building of Khufu's great pyramid.
• Nefertkau III: Daughter of Meresankh II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khufu#Family_tree

So the next question(s) are how robust are these identifications?

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Hanslune

[Hanslune]

14 hours ago, Piney said:

Uncle Harte I would answer in a limerick that would cause a Vogon's head to split open and eyeballs to explode.  

That IS a concern. However in the time of Corona I am filled with compassion and forgiveness for his poetic trespasses and have recalled my hit teams as they cannot maintain proper social distancing.

They have instead mailed him a sternly worded post card to desist.

[Harte]

16 hours ago, Piney said:

Uncle Harte I would answer in a limerick that would cause a Vogon's head to split open and eyeballs to explode.  

Only if you force me to.

Harte

[Hanslune]

1 minute ago, Harte said:

Only if you force me to.

Harte

If you do I will be forced to release the overdressed ugly pink guy with four arms.

I mean other than a really unappealing deodorant he uses he might also just give you an unsightly tattoo or give you a very odd four hour yoga class.

You have been warned

Don't take his innocent face as a sign that he's a complete moron. He is certainly not a complete one.

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

http://www.gizapyramids.org/static/html/ecem_bitmapzoomify.jsp

The above has a good map of the Giza East Field layout. Requires Adobe Flash Player. 

cormac

[Thanos5150]

On 4/25/2020 at 7:01 AM, Hanslune said:

Brothers and Sisters:

• Nefermaat: Half-brother; buried at Meidum and owner of the famous "mastaba of the geese".
• Rahotep: Elder brother or half-brother. Owner of a life-size double statue portraying him and his wife Nofret.

So the next question(s) are how robust are these identifications?

 

Apparently I missed this thread.

Here: The Meidum Pyramid Mystery

I gave this link: The Mastabas of Meidum- A New Perspective (which I quoted part from there as well): 

Quote

 

In the thread Pyramid at Meidum-New Perspective I proposed the theory that the core seen at seen Meidum today is not a "core" at all, but rather the original structure as it was initially intended which was later converted to a pyramid.

More pictures can be seen HERE.

It is not clear who built the Pyramid of Meidum let alone the core structure. Some suggest Huni, the last pharaoh of the 3rd Dynasty, began construction though it is commonly attributed to Sneferu, the 1st pharaoh of the 4th Dynasty, who as we know is also credited as the builder of both the Bent and Red pyramids of Dashur. Little discussed, however, is the mastaba fields of Meidum which I propose may shed some light on when the pyramid of Meidum was built.

The Meidum mastaba field consists of several unfinished mastabas, but of note are the three largest- M6: Mastaba of Rahotep and Nofret, M16: Mastaba of Nefermaat I, M17: Mastaba of unknown. They are attributed to the 4th Dynasty, but I believe there is evidence they may in fact be older and the burials intrusive belonging to the 5th Dynasty or later.  

Sneferu, the attributed father of Khufu, supposedly began work on Meidum and for whatever reason started on the Bent pyrmaid at Dashur some 34 miles away. We are told because of a design flaw, though he still finished the pyramid regardless, this prompted Sneferu to later construct the Red pyramid which at some point it is said he went back and finished Meidum. We are all aware of the problems with this scenario the most glaring of which the notion one pharaoh built 3 pyramids as tombs, but what is not discussed, compounding this problem, is despite many OK burials at Dashur we are told the cemetery for his family was still at Meidum. But there are problems.

M17: Mastaba of unknown:

M17 is made of rough cut stones and rubble with a mud brick exterior. The subterranean chamber is well cut limestone and contains a large granite sarcophagus. Given its immense size, the largest of the mastabas at Meidum, and the fact it is unattributed, the reason it is claimed to be "not finished", some Egyptologists have posited this may have been the original intended tomb of Snefru who for some reason later changed his mind and built 3 pyramids as tombs instead. Yeah. Others, however, believe it was a tomb for one of his unknown sons that for whatever reason was never buried there. Regardless, this mastaba is otherwise completely anonymous.

M16: Mastaba of Nefermaat I and Atet:



Proposed reconstruction:

Mastaba 16 is famous for its painting "The Geese of Meidum":

Which interestingly has recently been suggested is a modern FAKE.
Though some, like Hawass, disagree of course, comparing it to the other paintings found in the mastaba and of the period at large it is certainly unusual: 

Regardless, the fact there are paintings inside this tomb at all is unusual which to my knowledge would make it one of the first if not the first of its kind as the 3rd Dynasty and earlier as a rule did not paint on their tomb walls.

Also found was the stele of Nefermaat I: 

Note there are no cartouches or even serekhs and makes no mention of any pharaoh otherwise. 

Unlike M17, the interior is rough cut and whatever fine cut limestone was there that had paintings on it has apparently since been removed. It contains no sarcophagus and I have found no mention that it ever did. Nefermaat I is said to likely be the son of Snefru, and half brother of Khufu, yet this is claimed for no other reason than because his mastaba is near the pyrmaid of Meidum which they also say was built by Sneferu. Otherwise the mastaba itself is anonymous as to the reign of the pharaoh in which Nefermaat I lived. Of note there is a mastaba (mastaba G 7060) at Giza attributed to a "Nefermaat II" though there is no designation of the "II" I can find find beyond that arbitrarily given by Egyptologists. It is suggested his father may have been Khufu.

M6: Mastaba of Rahotep and Nofret:

Same construction with mud brick palace facade exterior. 

Stele of Rahotep:

No cartouches, no serekhs.

Most famous of the Rahotep finds is the unusually preserved limestone statue of himself and his wife Nofret:

Interesting looking pair, but again no cartouches or serekhs to identify a pharaoh.  

Note the inlaid quartz eyes:

This is highly sophisticated requiring a long period of perfecting the craft though here it is without precedent at the beginning of the 4th Dynasty. According to a Dr Enoch in a lecture titled A Recent Analytical Study of Egyptian Statuary at the Louvre: 

Quote

"These early lenses appear fully formed about 2600-2575 BC at Meidum in the famous statues of Rahotep and his wife Nofret and reappear sporadically in small statuary throughout the Fourth and Fifth Dynasties. The peak of development of these lenses was reached circa 2475 BC. The last Old Kingdom example being that of Mitri. Another Fifth Dynasty statue, that of the funerary Priest Kaemked, had eye structures where the rock crystal lenses were replaced with obsidian, a dark volcanic glass. In the Sixth Dynasty, there are no known examples of these eye structures.  These elegant lenses/eyes then reappeared in a single example in the First Intermediate period, the statue of King Hor found at Saqqara, circa 1750 BC...."

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Enoch noted that the quality of these eyes clearly indicates that these could not have been “first attempts” and must represent a development from earlier models which are lost or await discovery. Where did the technologies for these eyes develop and why were they permanently abandoned are important questions which also need further study.

The eyes of Rahotep and Nofret are undoubtedly the pinnacle of this craft which according to Dr Enoch was achieved in the 5th Dynasty with little like it seen in between. Which leads us to the statue itself, unusual to be found at this time as well. I have not been able to find another of its kind positively attributed to the 4th Dynasty though they become commonplace in the 5th:

The only thing that comes to mind is the "seated scribe" statue:

Found at Saqqara, its provenance is attributed to the late 4th Dynasty though there is no actual reason for this designation as it too mentions no pharaoh and was found with no context whatsoever leaving some to date it to the 5th Dynasty regardless.

All things considered, the statue of Rahotep and Nofret is highly unusual for the beginning of the 4th Dynasty, even more so because of the quartz eyes, in which all evidence I have noted points to it in reality belonging to the 5th Dynasty or later. 

Again, Rahotep, like Nefermaat I, is said to likely be the son of Snefru, possibly Huni, for no other reason than because his mastaba is near the pyramid of Meidum which they also say was built by Sneferu.

So, what we have is a pyramid whose core as I contend was a stand alone structure with what we see today being as it was originally intended before Snefru came along and converted it to a pyramid. We have his alleged sons buried at Meidum in 2nd Dynasty or earlier style mud brick palace facade mastabas which what is found inside makes no mention of any pharaoh and the only reason they are attributed as Sneferu's sons in the first place is because of the proximity of these mastabas next to a pyramid Egyptologists are not even sure he built. 

Further, the cultural context of the contents of these burials do not appear to belong to the 4th Dynasty though are typical of the 5th Dynasty or later. To cling to a 4th Dynasty designation creates an unwarranted series of "firsts" despite the long period of innovation required to attain this skill which is otherwise only found in the 5th Dynasty and later. And to make matters worse, this supposed "family", his children, were buried not at his purported favored "pyramid tombs" of Dashur, but rather 34 miles away at Meidum near a pyramid that is said Sneferu only finished as an afterthought with no intention of ever being buried in.  

We have mud brick mastabas with grand palace facade exteriors otherwise not found anywhere else in the 4th Dynasty, most notably at Giza which is a stark architectural contrast not to mention those at Giza attributed to the 4th Dynasty are nearly all made of fine cut stone. I would assume there would be other mastabas at least early in the 3rd Dynasty with mud brick palace facade exteriors, but surprisingly I have yet to find any though I need to keep searching. One thing is for certain, however, is this kind of mud brick palace facade mastaba was the norm in the 2nd Dynasty being rare if not nonexistent afterwards other than what is found at Meidum.     

In conclusion, I see no credible evidence, if any, the core structure of Meidum was built in the 4th Dynasty nor at the very least the three large mastabas of Meidum. They reek of being intrusive burials of 5th Dynasty or later and I suggest it is highly likely the mastabas of Nefermaat I and Rahotep were "unfinished and anonymous" when they found them no different than M17. All told, I do not believe Meidum was founded in the 4th Dynasty, but rather sometime around the end of the 2nd which may be connected to the abrupt appearance of the Saqqara stone working culture at the beginning of the 3rd Dynasty.

Lee Anderson

 

source

To make a long story short, in reference to your question at least in regards to Nefermaat I and Rahotep, it would appear there is room for doubt. While I have suggested these are later intrusive burials with perhaps Rahotep dating to the 5th Dynasty, on the flip side, Hawass for example, posits Rahotep is actually the son of Huni (I assume because he thinks Huni started Meidum) which would make him not Khufu's half brother either. Regardless, both Nefermaat I and Rahoptep are said to likely be the sons of Snefru, and therefore half brothers of Khufu, for the only reason that their mastabas are near the pyramid of Meidum which is said to have been built by Sneferu. Kind of a bummer for them considering Sneferu, their "father", was not even buried there. 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Thanos5150

[Hanslune]

My computer is currently acting up and has one foot in the grave so getting another one in a few days. Will reply in earnest then - thanks for info

[atalante]

from a link posted by Thanos:  http://www.egyptorigins.org/rahotepandnofret.htm

In attempt to show the color of the eyes I offer these repeated illustrations. The rock crystal used for the eyes was a blue-violate color.

 

endquote

 

 

The blue eyes of Rahotep are intriguing.

Is it still accepted that the original DNA mutation that provides human blue eyes occurred ca 6000-10,000 BC?   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

 

 

quote from:  https://www.apparentlyapparel.com/news/where-did-blue-eyes-originate-from

Indeed, it appears that the elite and nobility that organized the earliest known agricultural civilizations all shared this trait, seemingly coming from the same bloodline.

---

 

 

[Thanos5150]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

from a link posted by Thanos:  http://www.egyptorigins.org/rahotepandnofret.htm

In attempt to show the color of the eyes I offer these repeated illustrations. The rock crystal used for the eyes was a blue-violate color.

 

endquote

 

 

The blue eyes of Rahotep are intriguing.

Is it still accepted that the original DNA mutation that provides human blue eyes occurred ca 6000-10,000 BC?   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

 

 

quote from:  https://www.apparentlyapparel.com/news/where-did-blue-eyes-originate-from

Indeed, it appears that the elite and nobility that organized the earliest known agricultural civilizations all shared this trait, seemingly coming from the same bloodline.

---

 

 

Quoting myself from here: Nahal Mishmar Metallurgical Hoard, Levant c.3500BC-Egypt Connection:

Quote

 

Anomalous blue-eyed people came to Israel 6,500 years ago from Iran, DNA shows

Mysterious 6,500-year-old Culture in Israel Was Brought by Migrants

A cave necropolis of 600 individuals and grave goods found in Peki’in near Galilee (south of Lebanon) RCD'd to 4500-3900BC.

“The genetic analysis provided an answer to the central question we set out to address,” said Harvard’s Reich. “It showed that the Peki’in people had substantial ancestry from northerners – similar to those living in Iran and Turkey – that was not present in earlier Levantine farmers.”....

“Some of the findings in the cave are typical to the region, but others suggest cultural exchange with remote regions. The study resolves a long debate about the origin of the unique culture of the Chalcolithic people,” said Shalem. “Did the cultural change in the region follow waves of migration; the infiltration of ideas due to trade relations and/or cultural exchange; or local invention? We now know that the answer is migration.”

Added Harvard’s Harney, who led the statistical analysis for the study: “We also find that the Peqi’in population experienced abrupt demographic change 6,000 years ago.”

Including ossuaries as pictured above: 

The cave was robbed so it is assumed this is why there are few metal objects, but the cache of grave goods found is remarkable- “a veritable museum of Chalcolithic art.”. 

In short, this blue-eyed culture with Anatolian and Iranian DNA migrated to the Levant from likely the Caucasus region.

As it relates to the OP, though it seemed reasonable given the arsenic content it would have come from the Sinai, one of the articles says that the Nahal Mishmar metal is thought to have come from Anatolia (Turkey). It also notes a find in Ashalim Cave in Israel of a lead artifact dated to c. 4000BC which the metal came from Anatolia: 6,000-year-old artifact from Negev may be world’s oldest smelted lead object.

Deep in a cavern in southern Israel’s Negev Desert, archaeologists found what may be the oldest smelted lead object — a 6,000-year-old artifact fashioned from metal mined in modern-day Turkey.

I am striking out on finding info so far, but I am interested in the cranial morphology of the remains in the cave. 

As an aside, we remember another conversation about blue eyes.

 

 
 
Images of some of the artifacts discovered in the cave HERE.

 

[Piney]

 

Edit: Jarocal shops at Harbor Freight.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Piney

[Thanos5150]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

So much racialism and soooo much that's wrong.....

@cormac mac airt  Your the genetics guy. Have fun!

I did not link this website myself nor did I even bother to look at it. I quoted atlante who is its source but you edited my post to make it look like it came from me.  

[Piney]

Just now, Thanos5150 said:

I did not link this website myself nor did I even bother to look at it. I quoted atlante who is its source but you edited my post to make it look like it came from me.  

Sorry, I thought it would of tagged him. 

[Piney]

4 hours ago, atalante said:

quote from:  https://www.apparentlyapparel.com/news/where-did-blue-eyes-originate-from

There is so much wrong with this..

@cormac mac airt  Your the genetic guy. Have fun!!

@Thanos5150   Fixed! 

[Thanos5150]

Just now, Piney said:

There is so much wrong with this..

@cormac mac airt  Your the genetic guy. Have fun!!

@Thanos5150   Fixed! 

Thanks. 

[cormac mac airt]

4 hours ago, atalante said:

from a link posted by Thanos:  http://www.egyptorigins.org/rahotepandnofret.htm

In attempt to show the color of the eyes I offer these repeated illustrations. The rock crystal used for the eyes was a blue-violate color.

 

endquote

 

 

The blue eyes of Rahotep are intriguing.

Is it still accepted that the original DNA mutation that provides human blue eyes occurred ca 6000-10,000 BC?   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

 

 

quote from:  https://www.apparentlyapparel.com/news/where-did-blue-eyes-originate-from

Indeed, it appears that the elite and nobility that organized the earliest known agricultural civilizations all shared this trait, seemingly coming from the same bloodline.

---

 

 

No, because you're NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO DETAIL. It's NOT 6000 - 10,000 BC, it's 6000 - 10,000 BP which is 4000 - 8000 BC. That's one. 

Secondlly, the statement to the effect "the elite and nobility that organized the earliest known agricultural civilizations all shared this trait" is nowhere in physical evidence but predicated on carvings and sculptures being physically accurate to the individuals they represent which is not in evidence. 

Finally, the last statement in part claiming "seemingly coming from the same bloodline." is factually incorrect as blue eye color is NOT dependent on a blood group. If it were then I couldn't have blue eyes as I'm AB Negative while my blue eyed father was B Negative, different blood groups. 

cormac

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Secondlly, the statement to the effect "the elite and nobility that organized the earliest known agricultural civilizations all shared this trait" is nowhere in physical evidence but predicated on carvings and sculptures being physically accurate to the individuals they represent which is not in evidence. 

The other statement that the PIE and Indo-Iranian were blue eyed is false too. They were light brown, hazel and green.

 

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, Piney said:

The other statement that the PIE and Indo-Iranian were blue eyed is false too. They were light brown, hazel and green.

 

You’re right. Which makes four wrongs. Suggest in the future Atalante refrain from bringing genetics into a discussion as more often then not it’s misrepresented/misunderstood. 
 

cormac

[Thanos5150]

From one of the threads I link (myself): 

A more relevant connection between Egypt and Mesopotamia, perhaps, are the famed Sumerian "blue eyed" statues dating through the 3rd millennium, perhaps earlier. 

For the eyes they used a ceramic/stone/shell inlay affixed with bitumen with the iris made of lapis lazuli.

Though of greater sophistication, the DE eye inserts are strikingly similar with the same unusual fascination with blue eyes (these all date to the 4th/5th Dynasty):

The Mesopotamian examples at this point predate those in Egypt by centuries, though this gap is probably more narrow.  The oldest examples of DE eye inserts date to the 4th Dynasty, but no doubt the practice is older regardless if a different medium was used for the same effect. The statues of Djoser, for example, have unusually deep eye sockets that appear to have once held inserts. Prior to the 3rd Dynasty statuary (largely from the 2nd Dynasty) was made of wood which I suspect also had sockets for inlays as well. 

It seems hard to reconcile this practice did not have a common origin that likely began in Sumer.

[Thanos5150]

16 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Finally, the last statement in part claiming "seemingly coming from the same bloodline." is factually incorrect as blue eye color is NOT dependent on a blood group. If it were then I couldn't have blue eyes as I'm AB Negative while my blue eyed father was B Negative, different blood groups. 

....

"Bloodline" is one's lineage, not "blood group". While you and your father have different blood types you are still part of the same bloodline.   

Edited June 25, 2020 by Thanos5150

[cormac mac airt]

5 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

....

"Bloodline" is one's lineage, not "blood group". While you and your father have different blood types you are still part of the same bloodline.   

A bloodline necessarily includes ALL members of one's ancestry which means the statement "seemingly coming from the same bloodline" is in fact WRONG as there is no reason to take into account ALL members, just those who carry the necessary blue eye genes to be passed down to an individual. As to trying to school me on bloodlines vs blood groups since all/nearly all Mediterranean cultures/civilizations were patriarchal in origin leaving the matriarchal side essentially meaningless, especially since most women's heritage itself back then can be questioned, it leaves the matter squarely in the lap of the paternal side. THAT was my point. 

It should also be pointed out that saying "seemingly coming from the same bloodline" is just about as useless as saying that "only those who are descendants of either mtDNA Haplogroup L or Y Chromosome Haplogroup A000-T are human. 

cormac

[Kenemet]

On 6/24/2020 at 1:21 PM, atalante said:

from a link posted by Thanos:  http://www.egyptorigins.org/rahotepandnofret.htm

In attempt to show the color of the eyes I offer these repeated illustrations. The rock crystal used for the eyes was a blue-violate color.

 

endquote

 

 

The blue eyes of Rahotep are intriguing.

Is it still accepted that the original DNA mutation that provides human blue eyes occurred ca 6000-10,000 BC?   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

 

 

quote from:  https://www.apparentlyapparel.com/news/where-did-blue-eyes-originate-from

Indeed, it appears that the elite and nobility that organized the earliest known agricultural civilizations all shared this trait, seemingly coming from the same bloodline.

---

 

 

What's shared is that impure rock crystal does look blue-ish in certain lights and set against a darker background: 

 

More on the blue-ish rock crystal (which isn't actually blue)
http://quartzpage.de/blue.html

 

If they'd wanted true blue eyes, they would have used lapis lazuli... as in this example from the British Museum